Unity

[zil]

28 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You're going to have to walk me through this. If I have the attitude that getting up and going to help my neighbor move (or some other service) is important, and so I do it, but another in my ward feels like it's not important, they can't be bothered, etc., and so they don't do it, then the problem is with me?

The problem is with your assumption that this other member of your ward should be helping you.  Unless you have stewardship over this person which gives you revelation that this person should be helping you, it's none of your concern whether they are or aren't, and to begrudge their absence (because now there's more work for you) is a weakness to be overcome, and not the other person's fault.

Let us look at this picture:

Each mortal following a path to Christ (regardless of their comparative rates of speed, comparative distances from Him, or comparative straightness of routes) is being united (as best they can be) with every other mortal so doing.  Mortals who are not moving toward Christ are not being one.  That is not the fault of those who are moving toward Christ, that does not mean those moving toward Christ are not embracing unity.  Those moving toward Christ can invite those who aren't to join them, they can encourage and such, but that is all they can do.  They cannot force, nor are they expected to.

I submit this is not "trying" to be united.  It is being united, so long as the effort is maintained.  In other words, I don't think "unity" is the end goal, I think it is the behavior and attitude, a state of being.  Either you are in that state of being (to the best of your current ability) or you aren't.

It might be interesting to explore the context of the command to "be one".  Was it ever given outside Christ's followers?  I suspect not.  I suspect the command meant to be one in Christ and his gospel, not to be one with his enemies (though we can be civil with them and try to be examples of something better).

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

The problem is with your assumption that this other member of your ward should be helping you. 

Logically, in order for two beings to be of one mind and heart, they need have the same attitude about helping others. So...yes. Either they should be helping me help others or I should be joining them in considering such things unimportant for us to be one. Of course if I join their attitude to become one with them then I betray my covenants and the command to be one with Christ. So...yes...for me to be one with my neighbor and also be one with Christ, my neighbor must be one with Christ and come along with me to serve (Just like your picture indicated).

The problem, of course, is that many do not strive to become like Christ, and the question is how to fulfill a command to be one with them, assuming the command includes them. I do not believe the command includes that. I do not believe the command to be one with each other has any difference to the command to be one with Christ, or that the means of being one with each other is anything other than becoming Christlike. I do not believe that there is any compromise in this regard. We are to do and be as Christ is, and being one with another amounts to that and nothing more.

Don't misunderstand my questions on the matter -- I am, to an extent, playing devil's advocate in this discussion for the sake of exploring thought. That being said, I am not entirely confident that my views on the matter hold absolute merit, and so it isn't only playing devil's advocate. As with many things in the gospel, there is some lack of clarity in some matters that is worth seeking further understanding on by reasoning together, etc. (The etc., of course, being prayer, scripture study, and the like).

[zil]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Logically, in order for two beings to be of one mind and heart, they need have the same attitude about helping others.

And how do you know they're not helping because of their attitude?  (Just asking - I think we sometimes assume too much.)

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The problem, of course, is that many do not strive to become like Christ, and the question is how to fulfill a command to be one with them, assuming the command includes them.

I don't think the command includes them.  I think they're covered by the "love your enemies", "extra mile", "other cheek", "coat & cloak" type commands.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, zil said:

And how do you know they're not helping because of their attitude?

I made up the scenario and gave them their characteristics.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

A command to be one with God is an individual thing dependent upon ourselves alone. We either do so or we do not. But a command to be one with other fellow mortal, sinful beings is not only dependent on our own efforts, but also dependent upon the other mortal's efforts, willingness, and choice -- something we have no control over for the most part. Part of what I'm exploring is how can we keep or not keep a command that we have no control over?

I can sustain and follow my leaders. I cannot control whether my neighbor sustains and follows his/her leaders. Is it not factual that if I sustain my leader but my neighbor does not sustain that leader that I am not one with my neighbor in that regard?

Individual unity is an interesting concept…!

Yes, we are individually responsible for becoming united in Christ. That is what we have control over.

I don’t see any commandment to be one with each other and not in the Lord, or without he Lord. Whenever He commands something, He is part of the equation in fulfilling it.

Anything can only be factual, truthful and/or both in the right context. If you sustain the prophet but your neighbor doesn’t, you are also hopefully still inviting him to sustain the prophet – not to be one with you, but to enjoy unity with the saints in the Lord.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So your interpretation of the matter is that the command is to "try" and be one with another -- or a command to be "willing"?

You're going to have to walk me through this. If I have the attitude that getting up and going to help my neighbor move (or some other service) is important, and so I do it, but another in my ward feels like it's not important, they can't be bothered, etc., and so they don't do it, then the problem is with me?

So your interpretation of the matter is that the command is to "try" and be one with another -- or a command to be "willing"?

Great question, let's review this question in light of Lehi's words to his sons, "arise from the dust, my sons, and be ^amen, and be determined in ^bone mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity." This appears to be more than a "try" scenario, but definitely a "willing" scenario as the Lord requires from us our heart an a willing mind, "Behold, the Lord ^arequireth the ^bheart and a ^cwilling mind; and the willing and ^dobedient shall ^eeat the good of the land of Zion in these last days." (Source)

Was this command given to his sons knowing that Nephi could not control Laman and Lemuel? I would have to say yes, it was. Was this a command to continue as two sons were, and a command to two other sons to "repent" and change their ways to "become" unified and determined in one mind and heart? I would have to say yes, it was. For some this command is direct toward repentance. For others this command is simply to continue your course (I think @zil 's diagram of coming to Christ is most important here).

Unity is a "process of becoming" rather than a state (at least for us); whereas, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost it is a state (already achieved). The same concept of, "Zion is not achieved in one day. Zion is achieved over many days, many weeks, months, and years by constant (consistent) efforts by those who love God and his Christ."

You're going to have to walk me through this. If I have the attitude that getting up and going to help my neighbor move (or some other service) is important, and so I do it, but another in my ward feels like it's not important, they can't be bothered, etc., and so they don't do it, then the problem is with me?

Zil's diagram is a good start, and to clarify I understood the intended meaning, and was using a "literal" meaning for point. If we are placing ourselves as the "center" and not Christ, then yes, the problem is with "me" (general), and I am also interfering with being unified. We are not bringing people to be unified with "me", we are bringing people to be unified with "Christ" -- the fountain of all righteousness. A river flowing continually toward the fountain of all righteousness eventually becomes one with the fountain (Are we able to distinguish the water in the rivers from the water in the fountain? I would say, no.). We all though reach the fountain at different intervals of flowing water.

The command appears two fold to me again. For some it is to continue our course. For some it is to repent and change our course. At times, we may find ourselves in the "continue" and at times we may find ourselves in the "repent."

EDIT: I believe that command was probably more for Laman and Lemuel rather than Nephi and Sam; although, a good reminder for Nephi and Sam also.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Individual unity is an interesting concept…!

 

Yes, we are individually responsible for becoming united in Christ. That is what we have control over.

 

I don’t see any commandment to be one with each other and not in the Lord, or without he Lord. Whenever He commands something, He is part of the equation in fulfilling it.

 

Anything can only be factual, truthful and/or both in the right context. If you sustain the prophet but your neighbor doesn’t, you are also hopefully still inviting him to sustain the prophet – not to be one with you, but to enjoy unity with the saints in the Lord.

 

Interesting. So you read an implicit "and thereby" into the command to be one. Be one in the Lord, and thereby, be one with another.

I think this is accurate.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Interesting. So you read an implicit "and thereby" into the command to be one. Be one in the Lord, and thereby, be one with another.

I think this is accurate.

Not to be overly repetitive, but I pin it down as, "Be one in the Lord, and thereby, be one with another in the Lord." Also true: "Be one with another in the Lord, and thereby, be one with the Lord."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

So your interpretation of the matter is that the command is to "try" and be one with another -- or a command to be "willing"?

Great question, let's review this question in light of Lehi's words to his sons, "arise from the dust, my sons, and be ^amen, and be determined in ^bone mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity." This appears to be more than a "try" scenario, but definitely a "willing" scenario as the Lord requires from us our heart an a willing mind, "Behold, the Lord ^arequireth the ^bheart and a ^cwilling mind; and the willing and ^dobedient shall ^eeat the good of the land of Zion in these last days." (Source)

Was this command given to his sons knowing that Nephi could not control Laman and Lemuel? I would have to say yes, it was. Was this a command to continue as two sons were, and a command to two other sons to "repent" and change their ways to "become" unified and determined in one mind and heart? I would have to say yes, it was. For some this command is direct toward repentance. For others this command is simply to continue your course (I think @zil 's diagram of coming to Christ is most important here).

Unity is a "process of becoming" rather than a state (at least for us); whereas, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost it is a state (already achieved). The same concept of, "Zion is not achieved in one day. Zion is achieved over many days, many weeks, months, and years by constant (consistent) efforts by those who love God and his Christ."

You're going to have to walk me through this. If I have the attitude that getting up and going to help my neighbor move (or some other service) is important, and so I do it, but another in my ward feels like it's not important, they can't be bothered, etc., and so they don't do it, then the problem is with me?

Zil's diagram is a good start, and to clarify I understood the intended meaning, and was using a "literal" meaning for point. If we are placing ourselves as the "center" and not Christ, then yes, the problem is with "me" (general), and I am also interfering with being unified. We are not bringing people to be unified with "me", we are bringing people to be unified with "Christ" -- the fountain of all righteousness. A river flowing continually toward the fountain of all righteousness eventually becomes one with the fountain (Are we able to distinguish the water in the rivers from the water in the fountain? I would say, no.). We all though reach the fountain at different intervals of flowing water.

The command appears two fold to me again. For some it is to continue our course. For some it is to repent and change our course. At times, we may find ourselves in the "continue" and at times we may find ourselves in the "repent."

EDIT: I believe that command was probably more for Laman and Lemuel rather than Nephi and Sam; although, a good reminder for Nephi and Sam also.

Section 4:2 says, “…see that ye serve him with all your heart, might, mind and strength, that ye may stand blameless before God at the last day.” To me, this speaks to “trying,” as in righteous attempt, endeavoring or striving.

[LoudLizard]

Sorry if this has been said however, I did not read all of the comments.  

I try and get along with everyone in my life but I have always felt like i am on the outside looking in.  I am not a loner but I think I am annoying or off putting.  I don't feel acceptance from others in my life.  They are tolerant of me is how it feels.  So I think I am good with the Lord and that is my focus.    I think I am unified with others through Christ.  Even if I am numb to it.

[Guest]

On 9/25/2017 at 3:02 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

... individual unity with others is the measuring stick of our Christianity. Without getting into the details of it yet, I reject this concept.

Without the details, I honestly have no idea what that's supposed to even mean.

[Traveler]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:51 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Logically, in order for two beings to be of one mind and heart, they need have the same attitude about helping others. So...yes. Either they should be helping me help others or I should be joining them in considering such things unimportant for us to be one. Of course if I join their attitude to become one with them then I betray my covenants and the command to be one with Christ. So...yes...for me to be one with my neighbor and also be one with Christ, my neighbor must be one with Christ and come along with me to serve (Just like your picture indicated).

The problem, of course, is that many do not strive to become like Christ, and the question is how to fulfill a command to be one with them, assuming the command includes them. I do not believe the command includes that. I do not believe the command to be one with each other has any difference to the command to be one with Christ, or that the means of being one with each other is anything other than becoming Christlike. I do not believe that there is any compromise in this regard. We are to do and be as Christ is, and being one with another amounts to that and nothing more.

Don't misunderstand my questions on the matter -- I am, to an extent, playing devil's advocate in this discussion for the sake of exploring thought. That being said, I am not entirely confident that my views on the matter hold absolute merit, and so it isn't only playing devil's advocate. As with many things in the gospel, there is some lack of clarity in some matters that is worth seeking further understanding on by reasoning together, etc. (The etc., of course, being prayer, scripture study, and the like).

 

I find this kind of thinking refreshing.  I love exploring things at what others call the extreme.  One problem is that we all must live with priorities.  Once while serving in a bishopric I had canceled several family activities for months in order to fulfill pressing needs in the ward.  I had also spent 3 weeks not seeing any of my children awake.  A special meeting was called by the stake president and I received a phone call requesting my presents.  I decided instead to sack the meeting and spend the day with my family. 

That night the stake president called me and asked why I was not at the meeting.  I explained my circumstance and that I had decided that for this instant my priority was with my family.  He thanked me and said I had made the correct decision.  

One may have thought that the stake president and myself were not of the same mind and heart.  The reality is that we were.  I prefer to think that with most of the saints – what we often think is not of the same mind and heart is more a misunderstanding of someone and their circumstances.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, LoudLizard said:

Sorry if this has been said however, I did not read all of the comments.  

I try and get along with everyone in my life but I have always felt like i am on the outside looking in.  I am not a loner but I think I am annoying or off putting.  I don't feel acceptance from others in my life.  They are tolerant of me is how it feels.  So I think I am good with the Lord and that is my focus.    I think I am unified with others through Christ.  Even if I am numb to it.

 

Do you ever feel like you are on the inside looking out?

 

the Traveler

[LoudLizard]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

... you are on the inside looking out?

 

the Traveler

Not really but I guess that is the case in reality.

[LoudLizard]

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, LoudLizard said:

I actually consider this quite apropos.