We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction

[Rob Osborn]

I like finding truth using the logic of proof by contradiction. We assume a proposition is true and then prove it must be false because it creates a contradiction. Using this method we will apply it to D&C 76:103. It reads-

"103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

The stated proposition or assumed truth is that this group belongs to the future Telestial Kingdom, a place of glory prepared somewhere in the regions of heaven. So now we introduce the contradiction. That contradiction is found in several scriptures of which are noted in this verses footnotes. They read-

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelations 21:8)

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelations 22:15)

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
            18 Verily I say, that they shall not have part in the first resurrection. (D&C 63:17-18)

The contradiction here is that this group mentioned in 76:103 gets cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is a contradiction under our current assumed doctrine as the "lake of fire and brimstone" is reserved only for the sons of perdition. Here-

"15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
            16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9:15-16)

 

"9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?
            10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment." (Jacob 6:9-10)

"32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;" (D&C 76:32-37)

It is very clear that those spoken of in verse 103 are those who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. It is also very clear that the only ones who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone (the second spiritual death) are the sons of perdition. Therefore, the proof by contradiction is that it cant possibly be the future Telestial Kingdom as sons of perdition arent saved into any region of heaven. Thus, by logic, the only possibility that remains is that in this vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are seeing the sons of perdition on our current earth which is the Telestial Kingdom.

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I like finding truth using the logic of proof by contradiction. We assume a proposition is true and then prove it must be false because it creates a contradiction. Using this method we will apply it to D&C 76:103. It reads-

"103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

The stated proposition or assumed truth is that this group belongs to the future Telestial Kingdom, a place of glory prepared somewhere in the regions of heaven. So now we introduce the contradiction. That contradiction is found in several scriptures of which are noted in this verses footnotes. They read-

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelations 21:8)

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelations 22:15)

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
            18 Verily I say, that they shall not have part in the first resurrection. (D&C 63:17-18)

The contradiction here is that this group mentioned in 76:103 gets cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is a contradiction under our current assumed doctrine as the "lake of fire and brimstone" is reserved only for the sons of perdition. Here-

"15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
            16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9:15-16)

 

"9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?
            10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment." (Jacob 6:9-10)

"32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;" (D&C 76:32-37)

It is very clear that those spoken of in verse 103 are those who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. It is also very clear that the only ones who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone (the second spiritual death) are the sons of perdition. Therefore, the proof by contradiction is that it cant possibly be the future Telestial Kingdom as sons of perdition arent saved into any region of heaven. Thus, by logic, the only possibility that remains is that in this vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are seeing the sons of perdition on our current earth which is the Telestial Kingdom.

I appreciate you inadvertently illustrating the importance of reading things in context, because otherwise certain scriptures quoted in isolation might be misinterpreted as referring to current mortality on earth, whereas when read in context of the whole section in which they appear, it is evident that they are in reference to the resurrected heavens.

Nicely done!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 1, 2018 by wenglund

[The Folk Prophet]

41 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

our current assumed doctrine as the "lake of fire and brimstone" is reserved only for the sons of perdition. Here-

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.” - Joseph Smith

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.” - Joseph Smith

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

I appreciate you inadvertently illustrating the importance of reading things in context, because otherwise certain scriptures quoted in isolation might be misinterpreted as referring to current mortality on earth, whereas when read in context of the whole section in which they appear, it is clearly that they are in reference to the resurrected heavens.

Nicely done!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, do they go into the second death before or after their resurrection?

[NightSG]

So where do telemarketers end up?

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

So where do telemarketers end up?

Telestial, theyre not celemarketers...

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, do they go into the second death before or after their resurrection?

That isn't relevant to rightly distinguishing between earthly states  and heavenly kingdoms as well as mortality and resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

So where do telemarketers end up?

Terestrial:

Quote

Behold, these are they who died without law;

 

[Guest]

Just now, wenglund said:

That isn't relevant to rightly distinguishing between earthly states  and heavenly kingdoms as well as mortality and resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Let me know when he actually becomes capable of answering a question instead of simply dodging.  I may choose to re-engage him if he develops that skill.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That isn't relevant to rightly distinguishing between earthly states  and heavenly kingdoms as well as mortality and resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Setting those things aside for the moment, do you believe only the sons of perdition suffer the second death?

[NightSG]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Terestrial:

Quote

Behold, these are they who died without law;

 

Does dying without law really matter so much when they lived without soul?

[wenglund]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Setting those things aside for the moment, do you believe only the sons of perdition suffer the second death?

It doesn't make sense to me to set aside the pennant points that cut to the core of the confusion and focus on the impertinent things that may lend to confusion.

Nevertheless, in answer to your question, it depends upon which "second death" you have in mind (lake of fire and brimstone, spiritual death, cut off from righteousness, chains of hell, etc.)., and to what degree (no power over or otherwise)  and to what extent (temporary or permanent). 

Does that help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, wenglund said:

It doesn't make sense to me to set aside the pennant points that cut to the core of the confusion and focus on the impertinent things that may lend to confusion.

Nevertheless, in answer to your question, it depends upon which "second death" you have in mind (lake of fire and brimstone, spiritual death, cut off from righteousness, chains of hell, etc.)., and to what degree (no power over or otherwise)  and to what extent (temporary or permanent). 

Does that help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Okay, so there is a first death, or spiritual death that befalls all of us. We are all redeemed, or brought back from this first death. Then, those who havent repented and obeyed Christ will be cast out into the second death, or second spiritual death. This death is the one we are talking about. There isnt any other "second death".

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so there is a first death, or spiritual death that befalls all of us. We are all redeemed, or brought back from this first death. Then, those who havent repented and obeyed Christ will be cast out into the second death, or second spiritual death. This death is the one we are talking about. There isnt any other "second death".

That isn't what I get from the nine scriptures that speak of the "second death." (see HERE)  as well as the myriad of scriptures that speak of it synonyms (spiritual death and hell, etc.)

So, I am not seeing how this tangent helps your confusion resulting from wrenching passages from their context..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That isn't what I get from the nine scriptures that speak of the "second death." (see HERE)  as well as the myriad of scriptures that speak of it synonyms (spiritual death and hell, etc.)

So, I am not seeing how this tangent helps your confusion resulting from wrenching passages from their context..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum...so, are you suggesting that the second death can be experienced before resurrection and by others who arent sons of perdition?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so, are you suggesting that the second death can be experienced before resurrection and by others who arent sons of perdition?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wenglund]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so, are you suggesting that the second death can be experienced before resurrection and by others who arent sons of perdition?

I am suggesting, or rather clearly stating two things:

1. Your confusion isn't being helped, but rather hindered, by pursuing this less pertinent tangent.
2. Your confusion is being hindered by this tangent, in part, because you mistakenly assume a single, rather than varied meaning of the term "second death."

In short, your confusion will remain until you cease asking the wrong questions and failing to comprehend the answers given to those questions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

 

3 hours ago, NightSG said:

So where do telemarketers end up?

In Texas of course! All of that oil will one day catch on fire and create a eternal lake of fire and brimstone

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I am suggesting, or rather clearly stating two things:

1. Your confusion isn't being helped, but rather hindered, by pursuing this less pertinent tangent.
2. Your confusion is being hindered by this tangent, in part, because you mistakenly assume a single, rather than varied meaning of the term "second death."

In short, your confusion will remain until you cease asking the wrong questions and failing to comprehend the answers given to those questions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Im asking the right questions. There isnt a varied meaning of the second death. The second death infers that there is a first death. That first death is the first spiritual death. That death continues until we either are born again unto righteousness and walk in "newness" of life or are resurrected and brought back to our Heavenly Fathers presence to be judged. Then, and only then, will the second death commence. This second death is everlasting and comes only to the devil and his angels.

[wenglund]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im asking the right questions. There isnt a varied meaning of the second death. The second death infers that there is a first death. That first death is the first spiritual death. That death continues until we either are born again unto righteousness and walk in "newness" of life or are resurrected and brought back to our Heavenly Fathers presence to be judged. Then, and only then, will the second death commence. This second death is everlasting and comes only to the devil and his angels.

So you say. I see it differently. To each their own.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Let me know when he actually becomes capable of answering a question instead of simply dodging.  I may choose to re-engage him if he develops that skill.

It looks like it won't be for awhile, if ever. Please don't hold your breath.. It could be life-threatening.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, wenglund said:

So you say. I see it differently. To each their own.

So, maybe Im misinterpreting scripture. Can you show where in scripture Im wrong?

[Rob Osborn]

41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.
            42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.
            43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
            44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:41-45)

Edited April 1, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[wenglund]

45 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, maybe Im misinterpreting scripture. Can you show where in scripture Im wrong?

There is no point in you pretending to be open minded about this. I previously mentioned the scriptural context that you evidently ignored, and I also previously mentioned the terms with varied meanings in the scriptures that you refused to accept.  So, you have already been shown, but without affect.  I can find no way around your damnable mental wall. Thus, it is best to leave each to their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

There is no point in you pretending to be open minded about this. I previously mentioned the scriptural context that you evidently ignored, and I also previously mentioned the terms with varied meanings in the scriptures that you refused to accept.  So, you have already been shown, but without affect.  I can find no way around your damnable mental wall. Thus, it is best to leave each to their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I read those scriptures but didnt see the meaning you are entailing. I can list them one by one for discussion. Here is the first one-

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (Rev. 2:11)

The "overcometh" spoken of refers to the time at the end of the millennium where the saved overcome all things and are perfected.