No more games in Sacrament

[mgridle]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You make me laugh.  That is not WHY American culture came to be so dominate.  As a matter of fact, American culture does not dominate.  What made America the shining beacon on the hill is your Constitution, not your family values.

And no, let's not start a pissing contest against Filipino culture, or even Asian culture in general, and American culture.  There is a reason Asians dominate the top levels of the American education system.

 

?? Okay No it is exactly why. Constitution and family values go hand in hand.  As the family values structure has fallen, so has respect for the Constitution.  The Constitution can only work for a virtuous people.  

Yeah other cultures and people want the Constitution, but they don't want the values that it took to make it happen, hence they don't have a Constitution and hence why we are losing ours.

Yes Asians dominate in education b/c in general they are naturally genetically predisposed to have higher IQs.  It's that easy.  

Like I said, I've upset you; I'd be more than willing to carry on a conversation, but not at the expense of civility.

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[anatess2]

17 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Thought you said Bishop, my fault.  Maybe the BP should have a separate room where children can go during sacrament. Point being it's not appropriate to have kids running up and down in and out during sacrament.  If the objective is to keep adults focused on the talk-that alone will distract adults-hard to hear the talk with a bunch of kids making noise.

Priorities.  

And, you didn't listen.  One more time... there's no AC in ward buildings here.  Windows are WIDE OPEN.  As a matter of fact, the ward building on the next island over has no walls.  Sacrament meeting is held amid the everyday sounds of people who are not privileged to have houses with insulation and yards.  People are living next to each other with 2 sheets of plywood and a couple feet separating them.  Dogs are free to bark all day long just like the roosters and the neighborhood kids run around playing whatever loud game they are playing all day long.  If you can't handle a bunch of kids making noise, you won't make it through Sacrament Meeting.  The kids outside make more noise than the LDS kids.

Imagine this - sacrament prayer is said right in the middle of all that noise while your sweat is dripping down your chin and your white shirt (because for some reason the Church policy in Utah is followed in the Philippines when the barong is more weather-appropriate) is starting to stick to your back with the tie preventing airflow.  Those priests are super spiritually strong.

Edited May 2, 2018 by anatess2

[mgridle]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Priorities.  

And, you didn't listen.  One more time... there's no AC in ward buildings here.  Windows are WIDE OPEN.  As a matter of fact, the ward building on the next island over has no walls.  Sacrament meeting is held amid the everyday sounds of people who are not privileged to have houses with insulation and yards.  People are living next to each other with 2 sheets of plywood and a couple feet separating them.  Dogs are free to bark all day long just like the roosters and their kids run around the neighborhood playing whatever loud game they are playing all day long.  If you can't handle a bunch of kids making noise, you won't make it through Sacrament Meeting.

And you didn't explain.  I'd love to listen if you would explain. You didn't mention windows until after my first response.  First you said Bishop, then you corrected to BP, etc. That's fine, but please don't blame me for not listening when you didn't explain.

Like I said for the 3rd time (I will now disengage), I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, mgridle said:

And you didn't explain.  I'd love to listen if you would explain. You didn't mention windows until after my first response.  First you said Bishop, then you corrected to BP, etc. That's fine, but please don't blame me for not listening when you didn't explain.

Like I said for the 3rd time (I will now disengage), I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

 

I was talking to @Vort.  Vort is familiar with my Filipino ward as I have talked about it in mormonhub.  The point of my post was that the branch president (who was the bishop of the ward I used to go to before they created our branch, that's why I kept saying bishop instead of branch president) said something that was different from common convention and I pondered it and I came to the conclusion that he was right.  Then you attacked him even as the word Philippines was mentioned in the post.  When was I supposed to explain?  Next time, don't let your anti-modernism monster paint people before you understand the situation afoot.  Snowflakes are bad.  And so are monster painters.  Especially Americans who think everybody else does the American thing too.  Next time, ask first - why do you think the bishop was right?  It doesn't make sense because... then I can explain why your perspective does not apply in this situation.

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Like I said for the 3rd time (I will now disengage), I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

 

Then don't call bishops or branch presidents idiots especially MY bishop or branch president, not just some random bishop or branch president in some place unfamiliar to any of us.  Of course I'm going to fight you over that!

Edited May 2, 2018 by anatess2

[Grunt]

54 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I agree with him.  I find it completely unacceptable to let kids run wild while trying to listen to a talk being given.

Your branch president is short sighted.  Is that a more acceptable insult than "idiot"?  He said they see our example.  Not really.  We teach by PRECEPT & by Example.  Little children don't even know what to look for when they see an example.  They must be shown AND taught.  True, they may eventually get older and learn and figure it out.  But little children can learn MUCH faster when we use a little bit of force when it comes to things that have a direct negative impact on others.

You say it is different in Filipino culture.  OK. Who am I to argue with that?  But the sentiment @mgridle offered is absolutely correct for American culture.

I completely agree as well, but I'm a little taken aback by calling a Bishop an idiot.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I completely agree as well, but I'm a little taken aback by calling a Bishop an idiot.

Yes.  That may have been inappropriate.

[mgridle]

11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Then don't call bishops or branch presidents idiots especially MY bishop or branch president, not just some random bishop or branch president in some place unfamiliar to any of us.  Of course I'm going to fight you over that!

Why are you personalizing the BP as an extension of you?  He is random to me.

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Why are you personalizing the BP as an extension of you?

Didn't you say you were going to disengage?

[mgridle]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Didn't you say you were going to disengage?

Yes, thank you for calling me on it. 😋  .. . it's just so hard . . . ugh oh well.

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Why are you personalizing the BP as an extension of you?  He is random to me.

Because he represents a Church leader that he sustains.  I'd suggest you try to be a little less insulting and a little more respecting of another's beliefs if you're looking for actual conversation.

[mgridle]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Because he represents a Church leader that he sustains.  I'd suggest you try to be a little less insulting and a little more respecting of another's beliefs if you're looking for actual conversation.

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism).  I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation.

I can have great respect for MY Bishop and still think he can do things wrong, not be correct, even be an idiot on certain issues-that's the price you pay for leadership-someone ain't gonna like your leadership. 

I have learned how to disagree with someone's decisions (even vehemently in life) yet still respect them. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[Grunt]

Just now, mgridle said:

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism).  I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation.

Nobody claimed he was imperfect.  Admitting imperfection is a far distance from "idiot".   If you want a two-party conversation, send a private message.  You didn't.  You posted on a discussion board.  I'm having a respectable discussion about your boorish behavior.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mgridle said:

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism).  I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation.

mgridle,

You know that I'm on your side on the overall discussion.  But there's a difference between disagreeing and being disrespectful.  I also made a similar but less aggressive comment.  And I'll apologize for that now.

On a public forum, there's no such thing as a private conversation.  Most of the forum pretty much agrees with that.

[mgridle]

Just now, Grunt said:

Nobody claimed he was imperfect.  Admitting imperfection is a far distance from "idiot".   If you want a two-party conversation, send a private message.  You didn't.  You posted on a discussion board.  I'm having a respectable discussion about your boorish behavior.

You see it as boorish, that's fine. I see it as calling a spade a spade.  If a BP is telling parents, don't worry about your kids making noises in sacrament, just pay attention to the message, I say that it idiotic to convey that message.  You don't have to like it or agree with it, but I think it is idiotic to do.  That's not "boorish" behavior.  But whatever, this is pointless.  Moving on.

[Grunt]

Just now, mgridle said:

You see it as boorish, that's fine. I see it as calling a spade a spade.  If a BP is telling parents, don't worry about your kids making noises in sacrament, just pay attention to the message, I say that it idiotic to convey that message.  You don't have to like it or agree with it, but I think it is idiotic to do.  That's not "boorish" behavior.  But whatever, this is pointless.  Moving on.

Only you DIDN'T say it was idiotic to convey that message.  You said HE is an idiot.  Huge difference.  Words mean something.  

[mgridle]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

On a public forum, there's no such thing as a private conversation.  Most of the forum pretty much agrees with that.

I agree.  Like I said, I really don't like the hero worship in the Church; I'm not for criticizing leaders, but it is okay to not agree with and to even think some of the things they do are dumb.

[mgridle]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Only you DIDN'T say it was idiotic to convey that message.  You said HE is an idiot.  Huge difference.  Words mean something.  

Now you are just parsing words, if that is the message he is convoying then yes he IS BEING an idiot for conveying that message.

People convey messages, if the message is idiotic then the person who conveys that message is conveying an idiotic message and is making themselves out to be an idiot.

Like I said again, this is pointless . . .trying to disengage . . . .

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[anatess2]

14 minutes ago, mgridle said:

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism).  I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation.

I can have great respect for MY Bishop and still think he can do things wrong, not be correct, even be an idiot on certain issues-that's the price you pay for leadership-someone ain't gonna like your leadership. 

I have learned how to disagree with someone's decisions (even vehemently in life) yet still respect them. 

This is the internet.  There's no "two party conversation".  Besides, I'd much rather have @Grunt in the conversation who, even as he disagrees with me on some things, at least listens to my side of the conversation before he spouts what he thinks about what I said on the matter.

And yes, bishops are not perfect not even my bishop.  This time, though, we are talking about a SPECIFIC bishop on a SPECIFIC lesson intended for a SPECIFIC ward/branch.  And this time, I found that the bishop is correct after pondering on the matter.  You can disagree with me and my bishop but calling Filipinos in my neck of the woods out as snowflakes and my bishop an idiot puts you on the same level as ignorant monster painters.  You can stay in that level or you can elevate yourself up from it.  Your call. 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by anatess2

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Now you are just parsing words, if that is the message he is convoying then yes he IS BEING an idiot for conveying that message.

People convey messages, if the message is idiotic then the person who conveys that message is conveying an idiotic message and is making themselves out to be an idiot.

Like I said again, this is pointless . . .trying to disengage . . . .

Words mean things.  Use the words you mean.  Sometimes it's best to just apologize for a misuse of words and move on.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Grunt

[anatess2]

By the way, if any of you want to relate this incident to an American ward, it would be similar to a person taking out their child to the hallway and there is no sound system in the hallway so they don't get to hear the talk.  The branch president gave a lesson under Improving Sacrament Meeting Experience for a branch made up mostly of fresh converts to stay in the chapel and be edified by the talks rather than remove themselves from the chapel in the interest of keeping their kids quiet.

[mgridle]

6 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Words mean things.  Use the words you mean.

Yes, yes they do.  I stand by what I said given the information I had at the time. Given how the story at that point was relayed, the Branch President (or Bishop, I can't remember b/c it's been changed around), was being an idiot.  To set not offending new converts/investigators above proper decorum in a church meeting so individuals can actually hear is idiotic and is being an idiot. Because kids unproperly disciplined will cause a ruckus and will disrupt the meeting.

Now the story has changed, that's fine. No big deal.  I have no opinion on the matter now b/c the story has changed I'm no sure what the situation really is (is it Bishop or is it BP, is it US or foreign) I don't really care.

Edited May 2, 2018 by mgridle

[zil]

26 minutes ago, mgridle said:

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism).  I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation.

I can have great respect for MY Bishop and still think he can do things wrong, not be correct, even be an idiot on certain issues-that's the price you pay for leadership-someone ain't gonna like your leadership. 

I have learned how to disagree with someone's decisions (even vehemently in life) yet still respect them. 

At the risk of becoming party number 3 to this pointless argument, this is not the first thread wherein you have jumped the gun and found unwarranted fault rather than seeking increased understanding before making assumptions about a complete stranger.  Please consider that this may be an example where you need to check yourself.

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Yes, yes they do.  I stand by what I said given the information I had at the time. Given how the story at that point was relayed, the Branch President (or Bishop, I can't remember b/c it's been changed around), was being an idiot.  To set not offending new converts/investigators above proper decorum in a church meeting so individuals can actually hear is idiotic and is being an idiot. Because kids unproperly disciplined will cause a ruckus and will disrupt the meeting.

Now the story has changed, that's fine. No big deal.  I have no opinion on the matter now b/c the story has changed I'm no sure what the situation really is (is it Bishop or is it BP, is it US or foreign) I don't really care.

You've got a forked tongue and the backtracking doesn't change the facts.  Personally, I'd have locked your account for personally attacking a Bishop, or any other member, rather than the message.  I still have that new Mormon smell, though, so I'm less forgiving and loving than my brothers and sisters.  

[mgridle]

1 minute ago, zil said:

At the risk of becoming party number 3 to this pointless argument, this is not the first thread wherein you have jumped the gun and found unwarranted fault rather than seeking increased understanding before making assumptions about a complete stranger.  Please consider that this may be an example where you need to check yourself.

No zil, that is incorrect. I have commented on a grand total of 3 threads on this forum.  Maybe you should take a look in mirror.