Fixing a Toxic Friendship?

[unixknight]

There's a guy I am friends with, and we've known each other for several years.  In some ways, he is as close a friend as I have ever had, but at the same time I have been feeling greater and greater stress from it.

He and I have wildly different views on everything from religion to politics.  In and of itself that isn't a problem for me as I have had friends with different views plenty, and in fact I welcome that because it challenges me and helps me improve my own understanding and ability to articulate my beliefs.

The problem is that it has gotten worse since the election in 2016.  He's always been an angry guy but lately there's a tension that wasn't there before.  I don't think it's directed at me, but now I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells when certain subjects come up.  It also doesn't help that he occasionally drops little comments and remarks that normally I would respond to, but I genuinely worry about what might happen between us, because my own frustration is growing.

Normally I would just sit down with him alone and hash it out, and I have tried to arrange it but it never seems to happen.  When we're together it's always in a group or too brief for a deep conversation. 

Because I bite my tongue as much as I do, I sometimes wonder if he even still realizes how differently we see things, and whether he would still accept me as a friend if he did.

Its been taking up more and more of my thoughts and I can't keep the status quo up any longer... yet I greatly value him as a friend so just cutting him out isn't a desirable option for me. 

Any thoughts?

[NeuroTypical]

You can always risk breaching the topic with him directly, like you're doing here.  Hard for bros, but occasionally worthwhile.

"Dude, I've always had a huge kick out of arguing with you.  But these days it seems like something has you wound up.  Everything ok at home?"

Something like that.  You have to go into such things fully expecting a massive negative backlash, but the truth might be in there somewhere.  You're basically standing in front of his shotgun and inviting him to pull the trigger.  The trick, is to realize that the stuff he has to shoot really can't hurt you. 

[Guest MormonGator]

So this is why you don't answer my texts anymore huh? Thanks. 

In all seriousness, it's tough when friends grow and evolve on politics, it can become acrimonious. One of my closest friends (a guy I've known for over two decades) and I disagree on every single political issue out there. We make it a point to joke around about it. I'll say "My stupid communist friend thinks....." and he'll say "Only a rich white ring winger like you would think that way." So we use humor to defuse what can be awkward conversations. Maybe you could try something like that?  


I'm with @NeuroTypical as well.  You might want to ask him if there are bigger problems going on than just politics. 

[unixknight]

Thanks, guys.

It isn't that he's got home issues or anything like that.  One of the great things about this friendship is that we can be open.  I know when he has issues at home (his wife is also a friend.  In fact, that's how I met him back when they first started dating) and all that life stuff.  I can safely assure you, it's all politics.

A lot of friendships died in November, 2016.  I'm worried that this one may yet.  Know what is so weird about that?  Neither of us voted for either Trump or Clinton.

Edited May 17, 2018 by unixknight

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, unixknight said:

Thanks, guys.

It isn't that he's got home issues or anything like that.  One of the great things about this friendship is that we can be open.  I know when he has issues at home (his wife is also a friend.  In fact, that's how I met him back when they first started dating) and all that life stuff.  I can safely assure you, it's all politics.

A lot of friendships died in November, 2016.  I'm worried that this one may yet.  Know what is so weird about that?  Neither of us voted for either Trump or Clinton.

I hear that. I've been there. Back in 2008 (!) one of my closest friends in high school and I got into a bitter argument over Obama. Haven't spoken to him since. It hurts a little bit now (it hurt massively back then) so I sort of know what you are going through. 

Politics brings out the worst in people when they take it personal. I'm so sorry it's happening to you bud. It's just a tough situation. 

[NeuroTypical]

I have a childhood friend who left the church a long time ago.  These days, he's married to a transgender lady who currently identifies as a man.  We have a hoot arguing back and forth on Facebook.  It takes both sides determined to not let things get personal. 

One morning, he posted a massive rant about the church, and uploaded a copy of his resignation letter.  I sent him a quick reply saying "well, you're still ok in my book".  That made a huge difference to him - he was expecting hate from everyone, and grateful to hear at least one so-called Christian was walking the "love thy neighbor" walk.   Ten minutes later, I discovered his actions were a reaction to the breaking news about the church's change in policy on baptizing children in same-sex households.  

We're still good facebook buddies, we still enjoy the occasional knock-down drag-out argument.  He instituted a policy of "for every mean rude thing I post, I will post a picture of a cute little animal".  That's cool.

Edited May 17, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have a childhood friend who left the church a long time ago.  These days, he's married to a transgender lady who currently identifies as a man.  We have a hoot arguing back and forth on Facebook.  It takes both sides determined to not let things get personal. 

One morning, he posted a massive rant about the church, and uploaded a copy of his resignation letter.  I sent him a quick reply saying "well, you're still ok in my book".  That made a huge difference to him - he was expecting hate from everyone, and grateful to hear at least one so-called Christian was walking the "love thy neighbor" walk.   Ten minutes later, I discovered his actions were a reaction to the breaking news about the church's change in policy on baptizing children in same-sex households.  

We're still good facebook buddies, we still enjoy the occasional knock-down drag-out argument.  He instituted a policy of "for every mean rude thing I post, I will post a picture of a cute little animal".  That's cool.

 I made a bet with my friend that if the Yankees win more games than that Nationals, I'm writing a check to the Democratic National Committee. If the Nationals win more games, he's writing a check to the Ayn Rand institute. We've done bets like that in the past. 

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have a childhood friend who left the church a long time ago.  These days, he's married to a transgender lady who currently identifies as a man.  We have a hoot arguing back and forth on Facebook.  It takes both sides determined to not let things get personal. 

One morning, he posted a massive rant about the church, and uploaded a copy of his resignation letter.  I sent him a quick reply saying "well, you're still ok in my book".  That made a huge difference to him - he was expecting hate from everyone, and grateful to hear at least one so-called Christian was walking the "love thy neighbor" walk.   Ten minutes later, I discovered his actions were a reaction to the breaking news about the church's change in policy on baptizing children in same-sex households.  

We're still good facebook buddies, we still enjoy the occasional knock-down drag-out argument.  He instituted a policy of "for every mean rude thing I post, I will post a picture of a cute little animal".  That's cool.

I've had friendships like that.  Love 'em.  They really are a rare and precious thing because it takes a lot of uncommon maturity to do that.  

[NeuroTypical]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 I made a bet with my friend that if the Yankees win more games than that Nationals, I'm writing a check to the Democratic National Committee. If the Nationals win more games, he's writing a check to the Ayn Rand institute. We've done bets like that in the past. 

Lol!  I have a 20 year bet with my anarchist buddy.  He figures same-sex marriage in our temples is inevitable, merely a function of a few generational turns. I figure, well, marriage is ordained of God and He is in charge.  

So, whoever loses in 20 years has to wear a pink tutu and sing "I'm a little teapot".   I figure I'm good either way, because if my church is doing same-sex sealings and I'm still a member, I'll probably have much less aversion to wearing pink. 

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

 I made a bet with my friend that if the Yankees win more games than that Nationals, I'm writing a check to the Democratic National Committee. If the Nationals win more games, he's writing a check to the Ayn Rand institute. We've done bets like that in the past. 

After the 2016 election I tried to lighten this vs with a joke or two, but it didn't work, and hasn't since.

To be honest, I think he's only really comfortable around people in his bubble.  I honestly don't know why he's friends with me despite my being WAY out of that bubble... which is why I wonder if he really knows.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Lol!  I have a 20 year bet with my anarchist buddy.  He figures same-sex marriage in our temples is inevitable, merely a function of a few generational turns. I figure, well, marriage is ordained of God and He is in charge.  

So, whoever loses in 20 years has to wear a pink tutu and sing "I'm a little teapot".   I figure I'm good either way, because if my church is doing same-sex sealings and I'm still a member, I'll probably have much less aversion to wearing pink. 

 I prefer my bet. Just cash and a bitter pill to swallow. Not a pink tutu and years of public humiliation and shame. 

I've already paid a good chunk to the DNC, so my checkbook knows the inner pain! 

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

To be honest, I think he's only really comfortable around people in his bubble. 

That's the problem. It's human nature to be more comfortable around people who share your general views on life. We all (myself included) have to make a special effort not to that, just because it's a good way to delude yourself. You begin thinking "Only good people share my values and views, if you disagree with them, you must be not only wrong but morally deficient in some way." 

Sad. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by MormonGator

[unixknight]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You begin thinking "Only good people share my values and views, if you disagree with them, you must be not only wrong but morally deficient in some way." 

Which gave rise to the "punch a Nazi" thing when 'Nazi' is defined as "anyone to the right of Karl Marx."

[unixknight]

Well, for better or for worse I just blurted out the issue in Skype during a conversation.  No response yet.

[estradling75]

Interesting... awhile back I read an article that talked about how Facebook (and other media that does "you might also like") is ruining our abilities to get along.

The example they gave was something like this.  You are a "Purple" there are also "Reds"

You naturally "like" other Purple are good things.  So you start seeing more Purple is Good.  Then one of your Purple friends "liked" a story of some Red person being horrible.  Maybe you "like" the story because it validates you, or maybe many of your Purple Friends do.  Either way your feed is now full of Purple being Good, Red being bad.  That is all you see

Meanwhile on the Red side the same exact thing is happening only reversed.  They see the Red is Good posts, and Purple are bad posts.

Both sides get feed a steady diet of what "they might also like"

When they meet.  You as a Purple are primed to see Reds as monsters... and want to hold them accountable for every bad thing (and you know of no good).  And vice versa.

Both sides have become the locked into there views and demand that they other side change,

 

[unixknight]

I heard a similar point made by Jordan B Peterson.  It's scary.

This is another great reason to avoid Facebook.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I heard a similar point made by Jordan B Peterson.  It's scary.

This is another great reason to avoid Facebook.

There is another one I heard called the 100 man punch and it is more geared to online discussions in general... Want to hear it/have you heard of it?

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by estradling75

[unixknight]

 

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

There is another one I heard called the 100 man punch and it is more geared to online discussions in general... Want to hear it/have you heard of it?

 

I don't think I have.  Please go on.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I don't think I have.  Please go on.

Ok... Lets say you are in a online discussion that reaches 1 Million people (arbitrary number to make the math work clearly)

You post something that 1% of the group for whatever reason is offensive/wrong whatever.  One percent is not a large percent but it is 10,000 people in this case.

Of that 1% that was offended or whatever only 1% of that group choose to respond.  That is an insignificant slice of the total group who are posting against what you said

But it still turns out to be 100 people.  100 people telling you you are wrong, in error, offensive whatever.  Small compared to the total group, but it feels huge to suddenly have 100 people throwing punches at you (aka the 100 Man Punch)  Those are incredibly bad odds, and it can easily feel like the whole group is against you, and yet by the numbers you really did not turn the whole group... just a small vocal percentage.

This makes it once again to paint large group of people with the same brush without really knowing them.

 

[unixknight]

That makes sense.  Definitely a symptom of mass social media.  

Maybe that's why some folks have vast numbers of Facebook "friends" who they may only barely know....  larger audience and if a few get mad and unfriend, well...  who needs 'em.  You still have your crowd.

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

You can always risk breaching the topic with him directly, like you're doing here.  Hard for bros, but occasionally worthwhile.

"Dude, I've always had a huge kick out of arguing with you.  But these days it seems like something has you wound up.  Everything ok at home?"

Something like that.  You have to go into such things fully expecting a massive negative backlash, but the truth might be in there somewhere.  You're basically standing in front of his shotgun and inviting him to pull the trigger.  The trick, is to realize that the stuff he has to shoot really can't hurt you. 

 

39 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Well, for better or for worse I just blurted out the issue in Skype during a conversation.  No response yet.

He didn't pull the trigger. 😊

 

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - yet.  Maybe he's spent the last half hour furiously typing up his response, or maybe he's driving over to your house to deliver his speech face to face.  Or, maybe he found himself busting out in sobs because someone cares, and he's trying to put his man back on before responding.  

Uncertainty!  Crossroads!  Needle-moving relationship changing possibilities!  

This is high drama - whatever happens, we should sell this story to someone who makes tv shows, and they can write it into an episode.  

[unixknight]

Lol I just meant when he did reply, it was great.  

The politics differences will always be there, of course... But we're talking about it now and it doesn't need to be the elephant in the room anymore.

The tension is melting away.

Edited May 17, 2018 by unixknight

[Lost Boy]

Kindness and patience.   Be very slow to anger.

It works.   

Sometimes women just need to vent.  You can tell him that and tell him you are there for him..... 😉

Focus on those thing you guys enjoy doing together.  Listen to his concerns, but not necessarily try to fix them.  No point in arguing about politics.  You can tell him you have different take on things, but keep the conversation cool.

A heated argument never changes a mind.  Try to be understanding.  But it is fine to say that you can't support certain things as well.

You may still end up growing apart.  friendships require input from both parties.  The easier you make it for him to give input into the relationship, the more likely it will succeed.

 

[unixknight]

29 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Sometimes women just need to vent.  You can tell him that and tell him you are there for him.....

Indeed, but how does women venting applynhere?

[Lost Boy]

30 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Indeed, but how does women venting applynhere?

You'll have to figure that out yourself