Freemasonry (edited)

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, BJ64 said:

It’s amazing what minute things people here find to argue about.  

...this from a person who has gone on at great length arguing with a crackpot about whether resurrected beings have hormones.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

In the dramatized Church History and in several Church history writings before the late 1970's, Freemasonry and the early church leadership's connections to Freemasonry were openly discussed. 

I'm interested what "connections" it mentions.  Every quote I've read on the topic discusses it only in very general terms, using parallelism, metaphor, and imagery.  I don't see any official stating there is a real "connection".

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

All prominent early Church leaders were Freemasons and Joseph Smith is mentioned expelling some apostates from the Mason's Lodge.

The only relevant point about them being apostates was that what made them apostates also made them unfit to be masons.

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

It seems that part of history is being forgotten.   Reading early Church History, it used to be important to historians, but it seems not so much anymore.

What is being forgotten?  How is this being forgotten any more than any other "footnote" in Church history?  And really, the so called "Masonic Connection" is just that... a footnote.

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

Maybe it isn't quite as important now

You're right.  It isn't.

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

but the connections to early Mormon beliefs are interesting.

Again.  What connections?

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

At one time, Freemasonry was very important to the history of the early Church, but now it seems like an almost taboo or controversial subject.   It is interesting from a historical standpoint, especially.

It has become taboo simply because urban legends have sprung up around it.  Before that, it was merely unimportant.  But once people started thinking conspiracy theory land, people made it taboo when it was never meant to be.  There are Masons who are Mormons.  But they are much more common outside of Utah.  This was a result of an interesting cultural development between Mormons and Masons in Utah.  For many years, Mormons were specifically black-balled from lodges in Utah because of this divide.  This fueled the urban legends about it.  But outside of Utah, there was no such prejudice.  Some time ago, the Utah Masons lifted the ban on Mormons.  And there are some Utah Mormon Masons now.

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

I thought this might make some interesting conversation, since it's not exactly something that is discussed in Church, at least not for years.  

We've discussed it here a couple times in the past few years.  Do a search and you'll find the threads.

On 8/8/2018 at 11:34 AM, Scott said:

For those interested, there are still some references to Freemasonry among the early Church leaders on LDS.org.   

Here is one interesting story about John C Bennett and how the LDS Mason Lodge's expelled him:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times/chapter-twenty-one?lang=eng

Here is another story about how the upper level of Joseph Smith's brick store was used as the meeting place for Masonic gatherings:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times/chapter-twenty?lang=eng

Anyway, here are a lot of other interesting stories and sources on LDS.org:

https://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=freemason+joseph+smith

Since I'm interested in Church history, I find the connections to Freemasonry very interesting from a historical standpoint.  

Why do you find it so interesting from a "historical standpoint"?  Yes, there were some Mormons who were masons in the Nauvoo era.  But that is no more or less historically interesting than finding out there were some Mormons who were democrats in the Nauvoo era.

[Guest]

On 8/10/2018 at 9:31 AM, BJ64 said:

That’s s new sign. Thank you for posting it. 

How long ago were you there?  I was there about 12 years ago and that was the sign that was out there.

On 8/10/2018 at 1:49 PM, BJ64 said:

Yes I was there in 2002. 

Ah.  OK.  Well, did you see the photo from 2002 that @NeedleinA posted?

I'm beginning to believe that people just don't see things right in front of their faces and believe that the Church must be hiding things.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Guest

[wenglund]

Scot Gordon of FAIR wrote an informative article on" LDS Temples and Freemasonry

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 12, 2018 by wenglund

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm interested what "connections" it mentions.  Every quote I've read on the topic discusses it only in very general terms, using parallelism, metaphor, and imagery.  I don't see any official stating there is a real "connection".

The only relevant point about them being apostates was that what made them apostates also made them unfit to be masons.

What is being forgotten?  How is this being forgotten any more than any other "footnote" in Church history?  And really, the so called "Masonic Connection" is just that... a footnote.

You're right.  It isn't.

Again.  What connections?

It has become taboo simply because urban legends have sprung up around it.  Before that, it was merely unimportant.  But once people started thinking conspiracy theory land, people made it taboo when it was never meant to be.  There are Masons who are Mormons.  But they are much more common outside of Utah.  This was a result of an interesting cultural development between Mormons and Masons in Utah.  For many years, Mormons were specifically black-balled from lodges in Utah because of this divide.  This fueled the urban legends about it.  But outside of Utah, there was no such prejudice.  Some time ago, the Utah Masons lifted the ban on Mormons.  And there are some Utah Mormon Masons now.

We've discussed it here a couple times in the past few years.  Do a search and you'll find the threads.

Why do you find it so interesting from a "historical standpoint"?  Yes, there were some Mormons who were masons in the Nauvoo era.  But that is no more or less historically interesting than finding out there were some Mormons who were democrats in the Nauvoo era.

If you are interested in church history I would recommend reading Nauvoo a Place of Prace a People of Promice. It’s very well researched using period sources rather than later recollections. It’s been a few years since I read it but I’m sure it told about freemasonry in Nauvoo. 

Having studied church history extensively I’d say that only a small fraction of church history is ever taught. To understand church history you have to learn it on your own. 

[BJ64]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm beginning to believe that people just don't see things right in front of their faces and believe that the Church must be hiding things.

When you study church history you find that there is a lot that while perhaps isn’t hidden, it’s also not taught or talked about thus having the effect of being hidden from those who do not search it out for themselves. This is why I think it’s great that they are going to the effort of publishing the Joseph Smith papers. That which is published can no longer be hidden. 

[theplains]

On 8/9/2018 at 5:51 PM, LadyGator said:

I’ve grown up around Masons and Shriners and it’s just a harmless adult fraternity ...

You should read "A Bridge to Light" by Rex. R. Hutchens, available at Amazon. It's the 2006 version,
hopefully very similar to the 1995 version I have. It doesn't depict the rituals as 'secret' since it is
available to anyone willing to purchase.  Then you can decide if it's harmless or harmful to a
Christian's spiritual life.  I think I saw another poster on the forum say that it was Freemasons who
killed Joseph Smith. Maybe he figured out the truth and tried to warn his followers.

https://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Light-Masonic-Ritual-Philosophy/dp/B000ND58BA
https://www.scottishritestore.org/a-bridge-to-light-2010-edition.html.html

Jim

[Guest Scott]

 

Quote

 

  On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

but the connections to early Mormon beliefs are interesting.

Again.  What connections?

 

There are many parallels and connections with signs and symbols used in Mormonism and Freemasonry.  You can look them up yourself and I won't post them again.  See some of the basics in the link below.  

Quote

Before that, it was merely unimportant. 

It was not unimportant in early Church history.  Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders had much to say about it.

Also, here is an article on LDS Living:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Mormons-and-Masons-5-Fascinating-Connections/s/80329?page=1#story-content

Just because you might find it "uninteresting" (If that is indeed your viewpoint), doesn't mean that it wasn't important or that it isn't interesting to others.  It also doesn't mean there was no connection.

Here are some quotes (also in article above) from the early Church leaders on Freemasonry:

Willard Richards (16 March 1842): “Masonry had its origin in the Priesthood. A hint to the wise is sufficient.”

Heber C. Kimball (17 June 1842):“ There is a similarity of priesthood in Masonry. Brother Joseph [Smith] says Masonry was taken from priesthood.”

Benjamin F. Johnson (1843): Joseph Smith “told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion.”

Joseph Fielding (December 1843): The LDS temple ordinances are “the true origin of Masonry.”

Heber C. Kimball (9 November 1858): “The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy. . . . They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.”

There are a lot more quote on Freemasonry than the above; these are only a few examples.  To say that there was no connection or that it was unimportant at the time is just silliness.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by Scott

[NeedleinA]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:21 AM, Scott said:

Freemasonry and the early church leadership's connections to Freemasonry were openly discussed.  All prominent early Church leaders were Freemasons...It seems that part of history is being forgotten. 

Newish video by the Church.

 

[zil]

Anyone know where I can get some of this free masonry? I was thinking about having one of them fancy barbeque pits built in my back yard.

[Guest Mores]

7 hours ago, zil said:

Anyone know where I can get some of this free masonry? I was thinking about having one of them fancy barbeque pits built in my back yard.

For anyone who cares:

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/Freemasonry/what_is_freemasonry_files/free_in_freemasonry.htm

[Grunt]

9 hours ago, zil said:

Anyone know where I can get some of this free masonry? I was thinking about having one of them fancy barbeque pits built in my back yard.

You can get some eastern star.

[zil]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

You can get some eastern star.

I have no idea what that means. (Sorry if I ruined your clever response.)

[Serviteur du seigneur]

Deleted

Edited May 10, 2020 by Serviteur du seigneur

[Guest MormonGator]

3 hours ago, zil said:

I have no idea what that means. (Sorry if I ruined your clever response.)

Eastern Star is a Masonic organization  that allows both genders. Most Masonic groups allow only men. 

[Guest Mores]

4 hours ago, zil said:

I have no idea what that means. (Sorry if I ruined your clever response.)

"Eastern Star" is the partner "sorority" accompanying the fraternity of "Freemasons".

Unbeknownst to me, they've allowed men to joint Eastern Star and Women to join Freemasons.  Go figure.

[NeuroTypical]

I inherited this masonic plate from my paternal Grandma.  I hang it on the wall when the missionaries come over, to see if they ever come back. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm sure @Grunt can correct me if I'm wrong (and please do) but I think Masonry is in a long, slow decline. We went to the installation of a good friend this weekend and I counted three Masons under 50. Out of about 15 total. It was a little sad. 

[NeuroTypical]

When my dad died in 2002, I saw similar demographics at his funeral.  One of the folks involved in the funeral tried to recruit me there standing in front of the casket.  (He pulled it off without being rude or creepy.)

Interesting missionary tactic: Grab hand in both hands, powerful eye contact, and a solemn "We need you."   

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sure @Grunt can correct me if I'm wrong (and please do) but I think Masonry is in a long, slow decline. We went to the installation of a good friend this weekend and I counted three Masons under 50. Out of about 15 total. It was a little sad. 

It's weird.  The "lodge in every town" has gone away.  Many small town lodges have closed or merged.  My lodge is small.  We'll get 15 or so members (about 10-15% of our total current membership) at the monthly meetings and half that (plus townsfolk) at the Saturday pancake breakfasts.  I really like Freemasonry, but you get out of it what you put into it.  Probably 40% of our active members are under 50 years old.  

The age of the members doesn't necessarily bother me, though it is trending older.  People with families are just busy.  After retirement, they look for things to do and a group of men bettering themselves is a great past time.  Many members join younger in life, disappear, then come back later in life.

With many lodges, money isn't the issue (they have old money that has been left to them) it's getting members to actual show up so they can perform the rituals.   Freemasonry will be around for many years to come, in my humble opinion, but it's going to shrink WAY back to a sustainable size.  Some of your appendant bodies may shrink to almost nothing.  Someone from the Royal Arch chapter the next town over was asking for members of that body to transfer.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

When my dad died in 2002, I saw similar demographics at his funeral.  One of the folks involved in the funeral tried to recruit me there standing in front of the casket.  (He pulled it off without being rude or creepy.)

Interesting missionary tactic: Grab hand in both hands, powerful eye contact, and a solemn "We need you."   

That's a bit of a surprise because they generally don't recruit. 2 B 1 ask 1 is their "marketing" slogan. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's sort of uncommon from my experience. I've been asked if I was interested, but never asked to join. 

[Grunt]

Just now, MormonGator said:

That's a bit of a surprise because they generally don't recruit. 2 B 1 ask 1 is their "marketing" slogan. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's sort of uncommon from my experience. I've been asked if I was interested, but never asked to join. 

It's up to each state's Grand Lodge.  Many states have said "holy crap, we'd better start recruiting".  Massachusetts even runs radio ads I believe.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

  Many states have said "holy crap, we'd better start recruiting".  

Good, that makes me feel better. I don't want to see them fade away. 

[zil]

35 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Some ... bodies may shrink to almost nothing.

A common New Year's resolution.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

A common New Year's resolution.

Speaking of bodies, have you cleaned out the crawlspace yet? @mirkwood has been asking questions.