The Folk Prophet Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Anddenex said: I have never actually entered this topic with him. But scores have...all to the exact...same...end. Traveler, Colirio and wenglund 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: It was brought up earlier about doctrine and truth. I was making an important clarification regarding doctrine and truth. All doctrine isnt truth. There are and have been false doctrines in our church. How do you know that it is not false doctrine to think so of G-d's approved church? If the church that is established by G-d through divinely appointed prophets cannot avoid false doctrine - why do you think you can? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Traveler said: How do you know that it is not false doctrine to think so of G-d's approved church? If the church that is established by G-d through divinely appointed prophets cannot avoid false doctrine - why do you think you can? The Traveler O Boy. Here we go. This could go on for AGES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, Traveler said: How do you know that it is not false doctrine to think so of G-d's approved church? If the church that is established by G-d through divinely appointed prophets cannot avoid false doctrine - why do you think you can? The Traveler We are all imperfect. I too have espoused false doctrines, so too has just about every other member. It's human nature. We just don't have all the truth. We are still in process of learning, and that includes the church. Even our most holy things- the temple, keeps modifying it's processes, wording, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: So, how does one understand these verses in light of the greater whole- 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; 44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not. 45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45) Assuming for simplicity’s sake we take the “greater whole” to be Section 29 for the time being, see verse 30: “But remember that all my judgments [e.g. the degrees of glory] are not given unto men…” but are yet to be revealed in Section 76, in accord with His closing statement in verse 50, “And now I declare no more unto you at this time.” Note also in verse 43, “he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life,” hinting that he also might be raised in immortality unto other judgements than those already mentioned. wenglund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: We are all imperfect. I too have espoused false doctrines, so too has just about every other member. It's human nature. We just don't have all the truth. We are still in process of learning, and that includes the church. Even our most holy things- the temple, keeps modifying it's processes, wording, etc. With such a proclivity for "false" doctrine - what is the point in thinking any particular doctrinal notion to be true? Especially the notion that any modification of the notion or idea means that the doctrine is false? I quoted Isaiah that all true doctrine from G-d will experience modifications which would indicate that your professed method of detecting "false" doctrine is its self false doctrine. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Assuming for simplicity’s sake we take the “greater whole” to be Section 29 for the time being, see verse 30: “But remember that all my judgments [e.g. the degrees of glory] are not given unto men…” but are yet to be revealed in Section 76, in accord with His closing statement in verse 50, “And now I declare no more unto you at this time.” Note also in verse 43, “he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life,” hinting that he also might be raised in immortality unto other judgements than those already mentioned. Verse 30 is in the context of his judgments against the wicked previously spoken of in the previous verses. In verse 43 the part- "he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life" is in the context of those immediately mentioned- "even as many as would believe". Thats what it means. There is no other possibility spoken of here. The believers go into immortality and eternal life. The disbelievers into eternal damnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 42 minutes ago, Traveler said: With such a proclivity for "false" doctrine - what is the point in thinking any particular doctrinal notion to be true? Especially the notion that any modification of the notion or idea means that the doctrine is false? I quoted Isaiah that all true doctrine from G-d will experience modifications which would indicate that your professed method of detecting "false" doctrine is its self false doctrine. The Traveler We can, or should, be able to establish principles of truth of Christ's doctrine from the scriptures. The rest of the gospel is built upon and based on those fundamental principles. Those fundamental truths do not nor cannot be changed. For instance, baptism is a requirement to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's a fundamental true principle. Any doctrine that tries to say otherwise is a false doctrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 57 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Verse 30 is in the context of his judgments against the wicked previously spoken of in the previous verses. In verse 43 the part- "he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life" is in the context of those immediately mentioned- "even as many as would believe". Thats what it means. There is no other possibility spoken of here. The believers go into immortality and eternal life. The disbelievers into eternal damnation. You are simply wrong on every point here, and even worse, disconnecting every point from the whole. wenglund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, CV75 said: You are simply wrong on every point here, and even worse, disconnecting every point from the whole. How so? I think I understand the English language and how words and context is used. Perhaps I am wrong. Could you show me where I'm wrong on every point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: We can, or should, be able to establish principles of truth of Christ's doctrine from the scriptures. The rest of the gospel is built upon and based on those fundamental principles. Those fundamental truths do not nor cannot be changed. For instance, baptism is a requirement to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's a fundamental true principle. Any doctrine that tries to say otherwise is a false doctrine. Already your example is flawed (false) - little children do not need to be baptized. What you think is an example of a fundamental principle is itself flawed so by your own definition - false doctrine. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Traveler said: Already your example is flawed (false) - little children do not need to be baptized. What you think is an example of a fundamental principle is itself flawed so by your own definition - false doctrine. The Traveler Really? Nitpicking. Let me rephrase- every accountable person needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 And I might add, if people really understood baptism and what it means we wouldn't even debating this subject, everyone would agree with Christ's gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Really? Nitpicking. Let me rephrase- every accountable person needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven. I hoped you would come to understand the prophesy of Isaiah of line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. However your response was not a happy one to have learned a "better" precept. If there is a point here - the precept of begrudgingly forced to acknowledge a truth is not nitpicking but rather an attitude that at some point will require repentance and an appreciation of a higher "principle" than the one you are stuck on. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Hmm. A quick tally of those who "don't understand baptism", or the plan of salvation, and therefore disagree with Christ's gospel. Let's see...a quick perusal of posts...ah, yes... (I'm sure I've missed a few here, so apologies...): zil anddenex Vort Just_a_Guy Traveler CV75 estradling75 MormonGator Guest anatess2 wenglend Scott person0 Jersey Boy Emmanuel Goldstein askandanswer Edspringer Colirio Carborendum ...etc ...etc ...(sorry if your name got left off...but there's a lot of posts and a lot of names....)...etc ...[your name goes here]... ...and, of course...The Folk Prophet What a bunch of morons! Not a single one of you has the intelligence to understand scripture, the temple ceremony, the teachings of Christ, the gospel, or the ability to use a one-off quote by an apostle about the telestial kingdom to disregard all other quotes, comments and teachings of all the other apostles and prophets. Fools! Those who do understand baptism, the plan of salvation, and agree with Christ's gospel: Rob Osborn Edited January 17, 2019 by The Folk Prophet Just_A_Guy and Colirio 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, Traveler said: I hoped you would come to understand the prophesy of Isaiah of line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. However your response was not a happy one to have learned a "better" precept. If there is a point here - the precept of begrudgingly forced to acknowledge a truth is not nitpicking but rather an attitude that at some point will require repentance and an appreciation of a higher "principle" than the one you are stuck on. The Traveler In the context of what I was saying, baptism is an essential requirement for salvation. That is an unchangebale principle. If you want to disagree go ahead, it's your choice. I made a point, if you disagree that certain foundational principles of the gospel cannot change, that's your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Hmm. A quick tally of those who "don't understand baptism", or the plan of salvation, and therefore disagree with Christ's gospel. Let's see...a quick perusal of posts...ah, yes... (I'm sure I've missed a few here, so apologies...): zil anddenex Vort Just_a_Guy Traveler CV75 estradling75 MormonGator Guest anatess2 wenglend Scott person0 Jersey Boy Emmanuel Goldstein askandanswer Edspringer Colirio Carborendum ...etc ...etc ...(sorry if your name got left off...but there's a lot of posts and a lot of names....)...etc ...[your name goes here]... ...and, of course...The Folk Prophet What a bunch of morons! Not a single one of you has the intelligence to understand scripture, the temple ceremony, the teachings of Christ, the gospel, or the ability to use a one-off quote by an apostle about the telestial kingdom to disregard all other quotes, comments and teachings of all the other apostles and prophets. Fools! Those who do understand baptism, the plan of salvation, and agree with Christ's gospel: Rob Osborn You would be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: In the context of what I was saying, baptism is an essential requirement for salvation. That is an unchangebale principle. If you want to disagree go ahead, it's your choice. I made a point, if you disagree that certain foundational principles of the gospel cannot change, that's your choice. I also made a point about how we learn principles - pride is also a choice based upon principles. So here as another principle for you to consider - the more one knows the more that is required of them. Now understand - I am not saying you are wrong - but that your view is not perfect and needs some adjusting. So here is my unworthy advice - since you are at odds with so many and since there is no second witness to your way of seeing things and so many witnesses (from those that have repented and been baptized - as pointed out by @The Folk Prophet) that you consider (at least in part) what you are demanding of everybody else - except for yourself. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Traveler said: So here is my unworthy advice - It's actually great advice, but I'm 100% certain it'll be ignored. You guys are beating a dead horse. Edited January 17, 2019 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: You would be surprised. Well, let's have it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 40 minutes ago, Traveler said: I also made a point about how we learn principles - pride is also a choice based upon principles. So here as another principle for you to consider - the more one knows the more that is required of them. Now understand - I am not saying you are wrong - but that your view is not perfect and needs some adjusting. So here is my unworthy advice - since you are at odds with so many and since there is no second witness to your way of seeing things and so many witnesses (from those that have repented and been baptized - as pointed out by @The Folk Prophet) that you consider (at least in part) what you are demanding of everybody else - except for yourself. The Traveler One of the frustrating aspects is we tend to nitpick over frivolous things as a means to mock or degrade others. Anyone who knows me and my thinking knows the context I was using. So, it frustrates me when you chime in as a means to mock. It's childish, we need to get over such things if we are ever going to understand the gospel. I have many things I don't know much about, I know my weaknesses. What I do know is the gospel principles pretty good. I'm sorry if that troubles people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Well, let's have it then. I will start a new thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I will start a new thread. I can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I can't wait. And maybe I wont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 17, 2019 Report Share Posted January 17, 2019 Just now, Rob Osborn said: And maybe I wont Oh no! Now I'll never know what the surprise was! Colirio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.