The Path or Way

[Traveler]

Recently I encountered the idea that if we are all on and stay on the same path – we will all end up at the same destination.  In our modern culture the idea of a path or way is entirely encased in the concept of a road – which is the means to get from point A to Point B.  Our culture is deeply imbedded in the idea of maps, roads and orientations as the means to get us to our desired destination.  I am well acquainted with this concept.  I am an expert in automated material handling and artificial intelligent routing techniques.   I understand all the problems and complexities of following path choices to get to a destination.

In the religious context most modern Christians view the ancient wisdom concept of way or path in the same manner they perceive our modern road system.  That is that the only purpose of a path or was is to eventually get to a destination.  We are all familiar with Google maps and using our smart phones as a navigation device.  There are many good and wonderful concepts of geo-navigation to get us to our destination that fit so very well into or religious paradigm of a path or way to salvation.  But as we navigate with Google we often experience off or strange variances in our travels.  It is not uncommon for Google to send us on different routes between the same two points – or on a different route when we return.

Here is a rhetorical question – if we use Google and we discover that we end up traveling different routes – does our way or path change?

In many cultures (especially ancient cultures) a way or path was not intended to mean following a road from place “A” to place “B”.  The way or path was a method of discovery.  This may be a difficult or impossible concept for some to grasp but the way or path in such cultures was not so much about a destination or even the specific route as it was an keen awareness of discovery.  To put this into perspective.  Modern Christians are likely to interpret the term “way” or “path” encountered in scripture to mean how to get themselves to Heaven or the Celestial Kingdom.   Is that the measure of a child or Saint of G-d?  A self-aggrandizement intended for nothing more than to satisfy the ego?

Using this modern application of a way, we can imagine two travelers together in the same automobile traveling from New York to Los Angles.  Since they are in the same car they take the same path but end up with one discouraged vowing they will never again travel by car from New York to LA and the other so happy to have traveled across America by car, seeing so many things and with desire to do it again and perhaps explore things that were possibly missed.  I would liken these two travelers to types of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Both are born under the covenant, are baptized, attend church meetings, participate in all ordinances and ordinations, serve missions and marry in the temple.  One is happy, grateful and full of thanks but the other discouraged feeling that life has passed them by and they had little freedom to do what they really wanted.

If we see the way or path as a method of discovery, especially spiritual enlightenment  – then there is a possibility that two individuals utilizing the same way (method) could very easily end up in extremely different locations or places of spiritual resolve.  I suggest that the way of Christ is not so much to get us to some place as it is to become.  There was a time when all intelligent spirit children of G-d began on the same path but a third part quickly found a compulsion of self and pride as the path or way was only a means of self fulfilment.  So when I say become – I am not referencing an ego fed narcists seeking their own glory but a loving compassionate individual more interested in personal sacrifice of individual achievement for the glory of others than for themselves.  

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Recently I encountered the idea that if we are all on and stay on the same path – we will all end up at the same destination.  In our modern culture the idea of a path or way is entirely encased in the concept of a road – which is the means to get from point A to Point B.  Our culture is deeply imbedded in the idea of maps, roads and orientations as the means to get us to our desired destination.  I am well acquainted with this concept.  I am an expert in automated material handling and artificial intelligent routing techniques.   I understand all the problems and complexities of following path choices to get to a destination.

In the religious context most modern Christians view the ancient wisdom concept of way or path in the same manner they perceive our modern road system.  That is that the only purpose of a path or was is to eventually get to a destination.  We are all familiar with Google maps and using our smart phones as a navigation device.  There are many good and wonderful concepts of geo-navigation to get us to our destination that fit so very well into or religious paradigm of a path or way to salvation.  But as we navigate with Google we often experience off or strange variances in our travels.  It is not uncommon for Google to send us on different routes between the same two points – or on a different route when we return.

Here is a rhetorical question – if we use Google and we discover that we end up traveling different routes – does our way or path change?

In many cultures (especially ancient cultures) a way or path was not intended to mean following a road from place “A” to place “B”.  The way or path was a method of discovery.  This may be a difficult or impossible concept for some to grasp but the way or path in such cultures was not so much about a destination or even the specific route as it was an keen awareness of discovery.  To put this into perspective.  Modern Christians are likely to interpret the term “way” or “path” encountered in scripture to mean how to get themselves to Heaven or the Celestial Kingdom.   Is that the measure of a child or Saint of G-d?  A self-aggrandizement intended for nothing more than to satisfy the ego?

Using this modern application of a way, we can imagine two travelers together in the same automobile traveling from New York to Los Angles.  Since they are in the same car they take the same path but end up with one discouraged vowing they will never again travel by car from New York to LA and the other so happy to have traveled across America by car, seeing so many things and with desire to do it again and perhaps explore things that were possibly missed.  I would liken these two travelers to types of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Both are born under the covenant, are baptized, attend church meetings, participate in all ordinances and ordinations, serve missions and marry in the temple.  One is happy, grateful and full of thanks but the other discouraged feeling that life has passed them by and they had little freedom to do what they really wanted.

If we see the way or path as a method of discovery, especially spiritual enlightenment  – then there is a possibility that two individuals utilizing the same way (method) could very easily end up in extremely different locations or places of spiritual resolve.  I suggest that the way of Christ is not so much to get us to some place as it is to become.  There was a time when all intelligent spirit children of G-d began on the same path but a third part quickly found a compulsion of self and pride as the path or way was only a means of self fulfilment.  So when I say become – I am not referencing an ego fed narcists seeking their own glory but a loving compassionate individual more interested in personal sacrifice of individual achievement for the glory of others than for themselves.  

 

The Traveler

The way, the path, etc, is the same in regards to salvation unto eternal life. The process itself of entering into the path and progressing is in fact who we are becoming. The destination itself is as much as who we become as it is why we end up where we will. That said, there is only one type of individual Christ can save. Christ can't save the miserable, the weak, the stubborn, etc,. The path of salvation itself is our own willingness to become the type who becomes like God.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The way, the path, etc, is the same in regards to salvation unto eternal life. The process itself of entering into the path and progressing is in fact who we are becoming. The destination itself is as much as who we become as it is why we end up where we will. That said, there is only one type of individual Christ can save. Christ can't save the miserable, the weak, the stubborn, etc,. The path of salvation itself is our own willingness to become the type who becomes like God.

I am glad you understand that the operative notion of a way or path is not just to arrive at a destination but rather to have become such that the destination no longer is what matters.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

 

Journey before destination - There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

Brandon Sanderson - The Way of Kings

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

 

Speaking of the path or way of salvation-

"Pondering upon the subject of temples and the means therein provided to enable us to ascend into heaven brings to mind the lesson of Jacob's dream. You will recall that in the twenty-eight chapter of Genesis there is an account of his return to the land of his father to seek a wife from among his own people. When Jacob traveled from Beersheba toward Haran, he had a dream in which he saw himself on earth at the foot of a ladder that reached to heaven where the Lord stood above it. He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney)

“Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith)

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

[Guest]

On 1/21/2019 at 10:40 AM, Traveler said:

If we see the way or path as a method of discovery, especially spiritual enlightenment.

While I agree with this statement, I believe your overall post is counterproductive in this regard.  Here's what I mean by that.

Your (very well written and clear exposition, BTW) post seems to focus on the path at the expense of the destination.  Are we not told to keep our eye single to the Glory of God?  Yet, we are told that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life." No man can come by the Father but by Him.  Are these at odds?  I don't think so.  I believe they are meant to work in harmony.

So, where in your analogy does it unify the importance of the destination with the importance of taking the proper path to get there?

[Rob Osborn]

One point must remain- only those who reach the end of the path can be saved. If the path is change of one's carnal self into godliness with the accompanying ordinances and covenants then the destination itself is in that sense a complete change from carnality into godliness. Thus it causes me to marvel that none of these I mention below Christ can save as they enter not in at the gate nor follow the strait and narrow path of change-

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (D&C 76:103)

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While I agree with this statement, I believe your overall post is counterproductive in this regard.  Here's what I mean by that.

Your (very well written and clear exposition, BTW) post seems to focus on the path at the expense of the destination.  Are we not told to keep our eye single to the Glory of God?  Yet, we are told that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life." No man can come by the Father but by Him.  Are these at odds?  I don't think so.  I believe they are meant to work in harmony.

So, where in your analogy does it unify the importance of the destination with the importance of taking the proper path to get there?

I believe the Buddhists have the right idea.  The way or path is a way or path of enlightenment.  It is the attitude of being "aware" more than getting somewhere in space and time.  We are told in scripture that Zion is where the pure in heart are.  Thus when enlightened we are where G-d (the singular notion of G-d or ehad) is.  The Hebrew term of ehad is translated as "one" but is also used to describe the covenant of marriage as "one flesh" despite the fact we know that there are two very different and distinct individuals.  So as we become enlightened we are with G-d and are G-d as described in the first chapter of John.  It does not matter what is destination in space and time where we arrive - we will always be where Celestial beings dwell. 

 

The Traveler

 

I decided to add one other thought - I believe it possible for two people to be sitting next to each other on some bench or even walking side by side in the same location (space time) and that one is sitting or walking in the light of G-d fully receiving unimpeded inspiration from the Father through the Holy Ghost and the other sitting or walking right next to the first to while in complete darkness receiving inspiration from Satan.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Traveler

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe the Buddhists have the right idea.  The way or path is a way or path of enlightenment.  It is the attitude of being "aware" more than getting somewhere in space and time.  We are told in scripture that Zion is where the pure in heart are.  Thus when enlightened we are where G-d (the singular notion of G-d or ehad) is.  The Hebrew term of ehad is translated as "one" but is also used to describe the covenant of marriage as "one flesh" despite the fact we know that there are two very different and distinct individuals.  So as we become enlightened we are with G-d and are G-d as described in the first chapter of John.  It does not matter what is destination in space and time where we arrive - we will always be where Celestial beings dwell.

Well, that kind of speaks to the appropriateness of taking this metaphor in the wrong direction.

When we're talking about a physical path, we are indeed talking about having a destination in mind. The sightseeing is incidental to the destination.  If the sightseeing is more important than the destination, then we're talking about a destination that is not really that important.

When we're talking about a metaphorical path, we have a problem.  To say that Jesus is the way, messes up the meaning of "way".  We come unto the Father through Him.  This is a reference to both the Atonement, as well as our state of being.

But then we need a "path" to become like Jesus.  But if we need a path TO Jesus, then how is HE the path?

This is why the line of reasoning sounds wonderful and has some beauty, as well as truth to it.  But if you take it too literally, the metaphor falls apart.

[Rob Osborn]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:40 AM, Traveler said:

Recently I encountered the idea that if we are all on and stay on the same path – we will all end up at the same destination. 

Im curious to know- do you believe in the gospel of salvation there is one path or many and if there is more than one path does it lead to a different destination?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious to know- do you believe in the gospel of salvation there is one path or many and if there is more than one path does it lead to a different destination?

There are many paths, but when you enter into baptism then the way is very narrow.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

There are many paths, but when you enter into baptism then the way is very narrow.

Yes. Do you believe there is only one narrow strait path to salvation?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yes. Do you believe there is only one narrow strait path to salvation?

Yes

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Yes

Do you believe anyone be saved from the eternal hell without strict adherence to the gate and path?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you believe anyone be saved from the eternal hell without strict adherence to the gate and path?

What is your point? Because your questions feel like a logic trap to me.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is your point? Because your questions feel like a logic trap to me.

Welcome to my brain, eh heh. My point is about seeing if one really believes there is one path or many. If one, then what type of individual gets saved in the end?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Welcome to my brain, eh heh. My point is about seeing if one really believes there is one path or many. If one, then what type of individual gets saved in the end?

I think we should live the Gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the Standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We should also consider the teachings of the living prophets as the gospel as well. Hope that clarifies how I feel about it.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I think we should live the Gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the Standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We should also consider the teachings of the living prophets as the gospel as well. Hope that clarifies how I feel about it.

So, do you believe someone can escape hell eternally without following the Savior in all he commands?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, do you believe someone can escape hell eternally without following the Savior in all he commands?

What do you mean by "hell?"

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What do you mean by "hell?"

Um, the place where the devil and his angels go- outer darkness.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Um, the place where the devil and his angels go- outer darkness.

I see, there are three kingdoms of Glory after the last judgement, so no, one does not need to follow the Savior in all he commands to receive the lower two kingdoms. Only those that follow the path of the Gospel will enter into the Celestial realm. However, if you want to receive the fullness of the Celestial Kingdom you need to repent and accept the Atonement of Christ into your life. In our mortal state it is impossible to live the commands of Jesus 100 percent, that is why the Atonement was needed, so we can repent when we fall short of the commandments of God.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I see, there are three kingdoms of Glory after the last judgement, so no, one does not need to follow the Savior in all he commands to receive the lower two kingdoms. Only those that follow the path of the Gospel will enter into the Celestial realm. However, if you want to receive the fullness of the Celestial Kingdom you need to repent and accept the Atonement of Christ into your life. In our mortal state it is impossible to live the commands of Jesus 100 percent, that is why the Atonement was needed, so we can repent when we fall short of the commandments of God.

So, you believe there is another path other than the one the Savior speaks of to be saved. Is this correct?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

So, you believe there is another path other than the one the Savior speaks of to be saved. Is this correct?

What do you mean by saved? My definition of saved is entering the Celestial Kingdom, but for some it means simply to not go to Outer darkness. So, no, one cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without repenting and accepting Christ as our Savior.

[wenglund]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:09 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 

Speaking of the path or way of salvation-

"Pondering upon the subject of temples and the means therein provided to enable us to ascend into heaven brings to mind the lesson of Jacob's dream. You will recall that in the twenty-eight chapter of Genesis there is an account of his return to the land of his father to seek a wife from among his own people. When Jacob traveled from Beersheba toward Haran, he had a dream in which he saw himself on earth at the foot of a ladder that reached to heaven where the Lord stood above it. He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney)

“Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith)

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

Please note that the ladder has more than two rungs--this will be pertinent to my next post to you.

Thank,s -Wade ENglund-