A Prophet Like Unto Moses

[Guest Mores]

Moses said:

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The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deut 18:15

It is then quoted again in Acts TWICE.

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For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:22

This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Acts 7:37

This great prophet is Christ.  He, Himself, declared it so in 3 Nephi.  But I have a bit of a problem with Moses' prophecy then.

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18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Deut 18:18-22

This seems to say that this prophet will say things that God doesn't want said.  That can't be Christ.  To me, clearly speaks of another (mortal, fallible) prophet who may say things of himself (presumptuously).  In just a few verses he has changed from speaking of Christ to some OTHER prophet who will make mistakes.  Note that this does not refer to a false prophet.  It refers to a real prophet that the Lord will raise up, but will make mistakes and say things that the Lord did not tell him to say.  It may or may not refer to a fallen prophet.

What is most difficult here is that the only litmus test that we're given is whether some prophecy comes to pass or not.  Think about that.  That isn't very helpful.  A prophecy could be something set for hundreds or sometimes thousands of years later.  So, if it doesn't come to pass, then don't believe in it.  How is that helpful when it isn't going to be in our lifetime?

The other clue we're given is that the Lord will kill that prophet for speaking presumptuously.  Well, that makes me wonder.  Joseph Smith was martyred.  Is that a sign that Joseph said things (prophetically) that he was not supposed to say?  The wording does not indicate that he's necessarily a "fallen prophet."  (Moses, himself, was reputedly victim to this very prophecy he, himself, gave.  Though he didn't "die", he was certainly "taken out.").  It does indicate that even prophets can make mistakes.  But did Joseph say things that were false?  How would we know?  Not every martyr gave false prophecy.  What do we believe is the word of God?  What do we ignore as the words of a man?

Joseph was killed.  And like Moses' Torah, the D&C remains after Joseph's death.  I think we're on firm ground with that scripture.  But what else can we know was real?

In our system, there is a succession of prophets just as there was between Elijah and Elisha, between Moses and Joshua.  All modern prophets have confirmed things that have stood the test of time* as truth.  Other prophets have testified many things to be the word of God.  Many things that Joseph said simply aren't testified of by many other prophets.  They're often not spoken of.

While all men (even prophets) are fallible, repeated testimony by multiple prophets is a rock upon which we can build.

Then we have the Holy Ghost. 

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O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

Alma 32:35

We do not depend on other men.  And we do not trust only in ourselves.  We must have a check and balance.  And I believe we have four legs instead of just three.

• Prophet's original utterance
• Other prophets repeat and testify
• Holy Ghost confirms.
• Stands the test of time.*

Yes, there are individuals who will take virtually ANY phrase spoken by a prophet (ANY prophet or apostle) and claim that this is what they're hanging their hat on.  I don't believe this to be a wise course of action -- even if that statement was from Joseph Smith. 

But much more common is the fact that someone will claim that they've had a confirmation that what a particular statement was NOT inspired.  This, I believe, to be even WORSE.  Further still are things that have been testified of by numerous living prophets which counter what the individual has "received confirmation" of.  Yet they live by their confirmation rather than multiple living prophets.

*Stands the test of time:

There are actual prophecies.  And there are doctrines.  With prophecies, we can sometimes determine if they were true or false because there is a set time in which they occur.  But what about doctrines, teachings, commandments?  I believe that when such things stand the test of time through multiple prophets, we can be assured that they were correct.  Those which change can simply be policies (which are meant to be temporary) or they can be honest mistakes by fallible men.  But all of it is all subject to the same checks and balances.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mores

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, Mores said:

This seems to say that this prophet will say things that God doesn't want said.  That can't be Christ.  To me, clearly speaks of another (mortal, fallible) prophet who may say things of himself (presumptuously).  In just a few verses he has changed from speaking of Christ to some OTHER prophet who will make mistakes.  Note that this does not refer to a false prophet.  It refers to a real prophet that the Lord will raise up, but will make mistakes and say things that the Lord did not tell him to say.  It may or may not refer to a fallen prophet.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet [Christ] from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he [Christ] shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet [any that are not Christ, nor of the Lord], which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die [false prophecy was a capital crime].

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not [contradict], nor come to pass [is in vain, including without authority], that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of [heed] him.

Deut 18:18-22

Edited June 20, 2019 by CV75

[estradling75]

In 3rd Nephi we read of the Savior's visit to the Nephites.  During this event he looks through their scriptures, and finds that they did not record the fulfillment of a prophecy made by Samuel the Lamanite.  Christ instructs them to record it.

From this we see that the Lord documents both the prophecy and the fulfillment of prophecies.

In the Prophecy you quoted we have a clear case of the first part of the prophecy's fulfillment  being documented.  But fulfillment the second part is not documented. This means we can only speculate.

Speculating that Joseph Smith was this prophet poses certain problems.  You already addressed the problem of trying to figure out what he might have "presume to speak " that got him destroyed.  (assuming that is what happened). But none of our later prophets have been moved to document that Joseph Smith fulfilled this prophecy.  Thus it kinda calls in our whole line of succession.  For the Lord to have a prophecy be fulfilled and not document it runs counter to his prior behavior.

It seems more likely that this is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... which puts your last bit spot on.

 

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

18 I will raise them up a Prophet [Christ] from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he [Christ] shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet [any that are not Christ, nor of the Lord]

Interesting take.  I'm not saying it is wrong.  But what do you make of the following verses?

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16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

To me, this is a change in theme (textually).  It seems to be saying that they would not hear the voice of the Lord again, only hear prophets.  And it is only then that he goes into speaking about (to me ) a different prophet.

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

In 3rd Nephi we read of the Savior's visit to the Nephites.  During this event he looks through their scriptures, and finds that they did not record the fulfillment of a prophecy made by Samuel the Lamanite.  Christ instructs them to record it.

From this we see that the Lord documents both the prophecy and the fulfillment of prophecies.

In the Prophecy you quoted we have a clear case of the first part of the prophecy's fulfillment  being documented.  But fulfillment the second part is not documented. This means we can only speculate.

...

You already addressed the problem of trying to figure out what he might have "presume to speak " that got him destroyed.  (assuming that is what happened). But none of our later prophets have been moved to document that Joseph Smith fulfilled this prophecy.  Thus it kinda calls in our whole line of succession.  For the Lord to have a prophecy be fulfilled and not document it runs counter to his prior behavior.

This assumes that ALL prophecy fulfillment must be documented.  While I see your example of 3 Nephi, I don't find that as compelling evidence that He ALWAYS does this.  Nor do I think that anyone needs to say "thus the prophecy was fulfilled."  I think if certain events are documented, and the events are clear, we can see for ourselves that it was fulfilled.

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

It seems more likely that this is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... which puts your last bit spot on.

I'm uncertain which "last bit" you're referring to.  That we need checks and balances?

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, Mores said:

This assumes that ALL prophecy fulfillment must be documented.  While I see your example of 3 Nephi, I don't find that as compelling evidence that He ALWAYS does this.  Nor do I think that anyone needs to say "thus the prophecy was fulfilled."  I think if certain events are documented, and the events are clear, we can see for ourselves that it was fulfilled.

Christ had alot to do...  If it was not needful then why would he waste time on it?  God word will not... can not... return void.  In the last days when the books are opened and we are judged everything we have done will be there... but so will everything God has done because that is what we will be judged by/against.  So yes I am of the mind that all prophecy will be documented... The only question is what does God consider acceptable documentation?  That can be quibbled about.  Your example of something everyone knows... someone will still make a record of it.

13 minutes ago, Mores said:

I'm uncertain which "last bit" you're referring to.  That we need checks and balances?

Yes... to have developed our spiritual discernment to the level were we will not be deceived.. (either by other men or our own pride/ego) 

[Guest Mores]

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Christ had alot to do...  If it was not needful then why would he waste time on it?

I can't argue with that.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Mores said:

Interesting take.  I'm not saying it is wrong.  But what do you make of the following verses?

To me, this is a change in theme (textually).  It seems to be saying that they would not hear the voice of the Lord again, only hear prophets.  And it is only then that he goes into speaking about (to me ) a different prophet.

Yes, Moses’ Israel was terrified of the manifestations of the Lord and for this reason wanted a prophet. The Lord accommodated them (see Deuteronomy 5, especially verses 22-28), but Exodus 20: 18 – 26 also shows that this is what the Lord intended. He set things up for this object lesson and expected this reaction so that Israel would appreciate the role of the prophet. This role includes a type for Christ in that He stands as the Intermediary between us an eternal terror (physical and spiritual death). There was also a covenant attached to having a prophet instead of immediate, terrifying contact with God, which is that they would hearken to the prophet (see verses 29 – 33, and interstingly 3 Nephi 12:1, "ye shall give heed" unto the chosen servants).

So yes, Israel (and we by their legacy) follow a prophet as the covenant people of God. Individually, we certainly follow the Father through Christ whose name we have taken upon ourselves, individually and collectively. At some point or contexts, the Prophet is Christ Himself. I think these verses describe other prophets as unauthorized prophets, and the Prophet as Christ.

[Just_A_Guy]

This may not respond to your point directly, @Mores; but it recently occurred to me that this is probably why Jonah asked God to kill him when Nineveh wasn’t destroyed as Jonah had promised—he figured he had uttered a false prophecy and deserved to die.  

[Guest Mores]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This may not respond to your point directly, @Mores; but it recently occurred to me that this is probably why Jonah asked God to kill him when Nineveh wasn’t destroyed as Jonah had promised—he figured he had uttered a false prophecy and deserved to die.  

That's an interesting take.  Can't say you're wrong. But . . . I don't know.

[GaleG]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

but it recently occurred to me that this is probably why Jonah asked God to kill him when Nineveh wasn’t destroyed as Jonah had promised—he figured he had uttered a false prophecy and deserved to die.

I found another opinion posted here.

"Jonah felt that the repentance and salvation of the people of Nineveh was so abhorrent that he'd
rather die than even consider it. He had avoided the call--not out of fear that he would be ineffective,
but fear that he would be effective! His worst nightmare happened, so he decided he no longer
wanted to live".

Thank you,

Gale

[mordorbund]

On 6/20/2019 at 8:26 AM, Mores said:

What is most difficult here is that the only litmus test that we're given is whether some prophecy comes to pass or not.  Think about that.  That isn't very helpful.  A prophecy could be something set for hundreds or sometimes thousands of years later.  So, if it doesn't come to pass, then don't believe in it.  How is that helpful when it isn't going to be in our lifetime?

Most prophecy is fulfilled within 10 years. Even the ones that are fulfilled 100's of years later. Like Isaiah 7 for instance. Sure Ephraim and Syria are threatening you, but don't worry about them. They won't be around in 65 years. Don't believe it? Here's your proof: 700 years from now Jesus will be born.

How worthless! Except the next chapter opens with the fulfillment of this prophecy. The child was conceived and born shortly after the prophecy was given and repeated.

For similar reasons, yes, I agree that this is a messianic prophecy:

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The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

But I also think it was fulfilled in the same book.

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And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses. -34:9 (see also 31:3, and 3:28)