South Park Message, Can You Please Explain?

[teacherdani]

Hey all,

Not trying to be sacreligious here, I just want to know what is true or untrue about this video on youtube as it pertains to the Mormon faith and religion. Please let me know what you see that is wrong with it, inaccurate, or places where they tried to misrepresent the faith. I appreciate it.

Thanks,

Danielle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WbB9FgazJk

[Palerider]

Hey all,

Not trying to be sacreligious here, I just want to know what is true or untrue about this video on youtube as it pertains to the Mormon faith and religion. Please let me know what you see that is wrong with it, inaccurate, or places where they tried to misrepresent the faith. I appreciate it.

Thanks,

Danielle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WbB9FgazJk

if you are thinking about converting to Mormonism....you obviously have not been taught by full time missionaries......the little cartoon spoof ....there are too many inaccuracies to list....why don't you have the Missionaries over and let them teach you the Joseph Smith story and you can then see for yourself what the difference is.

[checkerboy]

Seriously Dani,

Listen to Pale. There was so much wrong with that I don't even know where to begin. The missionaries will have the time and the correct story to share with you if you find the time to talk to them. Don't go seeking truth from cartoons. I have tried to talk to you before about these things but you seem to keep coming back with more and more nonsense. Try looking for the truth in places that more then likely would have it, namely mormon.org not youtube.

[Palerider]

Seriously Dani,

Listen to Pale. There was so much wrong with that I don't even know where to begin. The missionaries will have the time and the correct story to share with you if you find the time to talk to them. Don't go seeking truth from cartoons. I have tried to talk to you before about these things but you seem to keep coming back with more and more nonsense. Try looking for the truth in places that more then likely would have it, namely mormon.org not youtube.

makes me wonder if he is serious or just trying to play games....

[jsmalley116]

<span style="color:#FF0000"><span style="font-family:Impact">This video is not one to rely on to learn about mormon beliefs. It is posted to make fun of mormonism.</span> </span>

<span style="color:#FF0000"><span style="font-family:Impact">This video is not one to rely on to learn about mormon beliefs. It is posted to make fun of mormonism.</span> </span>

[prisonchaplain]

Teacher, if you want to learn about LDS from something more respectful than South Park, but something other than a straight LDS source, perhaps the following book would be useful:

How Wide the Divide: A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation, by Craig L. Blomberg (Denver Seminary) and Stephen E. Robinson (Brigham Young University). As the title implies, this book covers the major themes and teachings over which LDS and Evangelicals disagree. The writings is respectful, yet rigorous and uncompromising.

I gotta agree that a satirical spoof is not the best platform for discerning the veracity of a faith tradition.

[Princess3dward]

Haha! Not the way to learn things.

I didn't need to see the episode to know what you are talking about. I've seen it.

Research anything that bothers you. I did!

If you need any help on anything specific you saw, ask us!

We are all types of people, and I think for the most part, you can trust us!!!

[pam]

Haha! Not the way to learn things.

I didn't need to see the episode to know what you are talking about. I've seen it.

Research anything that bothers you. I did!

If you need any help on anything specific you saw, ask us!

We are all types of people, and I think for the most part, you can trust us!!!

Desire, curious as to why your profile says Christian instead of LDS? Not that LDS aren't Christians but I am just curious. You mentioned on another thread about a youth activity and a Bishop.

[Princess3dward]

I used to be LDS, but I stopped being active last year.

[Palerider]

I used to be LDS, but I stopped being active last year.

so then...the discussion you had with your Bishop you mentioned in the other thread was from a year or so ago....???

[Princess3dward]

Like a year and a half.

[Palerider]

Like a year and a half.

that explains alot to me....thanks

[Princess3dward]

I was only a member for about a year, but it was my whole life, and I learned a lot more than the youth in my ward knew about their own beliefs. I guess when it comes to religion, I am pretty intense.

They used to call me "Hardcore Mormon".

It was weird. It would make me so mad, because I thought they should care as much as I did...

[pam]

hmmmmmmm

[Moksha]

It is probably best just to try to see the humor of the cartoon, although there were too many dum dums to be very subtle about it. If nothing else, the cartoon helps to introduce some members to the seerstone in the hat.

[a-train]

I'll make some attempt:

Joseph Smith was called a Prophet. True

He started the Mormon religion. True, in a sense. However, Mormons believe he restored an ancient religion.

He claims he spoke with God and Jesus. True.

He was out in the woods praying. True

He was asking God if He should be a Protestant or a Catholic or what. True

God and Jesus appeared before him... True

...and said he should start his own church... We are not aware that he was told that in that first vision, however he WAS ultimately commanded to organize the Church of Jesus Christ, NOT his own church.

...because none of the others had it right. True, but this is not the whole of the matter.

Many people believed Joseph. That's relative of course, today's current figure of living members is over 13 million, the highest it has ever been to date.

And that night he saw an angel. Moroni appeared to him on Sept. 21, 1823. The dialogue in the video between Joseph and Moroni is complete speculation and contains many errors.

Moroni is a native American. True, he was during his lifetime.

Joseph wondered why Moroni's skin was white. Ridiculous. I can neither answer true nor false. Moroni's skin wasn't white like my Irish skin. 'Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. (Testimony of Joseph) There is no indication whatsoever that Joseph even wondered this, much less asked Moroni about it.

Long ago all native American's were white... We have no affirmation of that from Moroni, Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon.

...and they all came to America from Jerusalem... False. The Book of Mormon teaches otherwise.

...and while they were here they were visited by Christ. True. Jesus did visit the Americas after His ressurection.

Jesus lived here in America. True, in a sense I guess. He did not take up residence in America, but He was alive when he visited.

Moroni's people were all killed by the other tribe of Israel... Those called Lamanites and Nephites who actually descended from Laman and Nephi were of the same tribe of Israel. It is difficult to even address the statement it is so nonsensical.

...and as punishment, God turned their skin red... False. However, God did 'darken' the skin of the Lamanites, but long before the wars that resulted in the destruction of the Nephites. We do not know how extensive this occured among the people or what exactly it looked like.

...these are the Native Americans you know today. The war spoken of between the Nephites and Lamanites occured around 1400 years before Joseph Smith. We do not know if our how much immigration to America and subsequent changes to the gene pool could have occured in that time. We do not know to what extent the modern Native Americans resemble the Lamanites of the fifth century.

There was an ancient book buried near Joseph Smith's home written upon golden plates... True.

that accounts Moroni's people's lives. The purpose of the book is to give an account of the spiritual history of the people, it is not to be a detailed history of the secular aspects of those people's lives.

Also buried with the book were two seer stones, the Urim and Thummim which allowed Joseph to translate the writings. True.

Moroni told Joseph to find the book and fulfill his destiny. False. Moroni told Joseph precisely the location of the plates.

Joseph Smith found another new testament of Jesus Christ. False. Joseph was given the Book of Mormon, he didn't just happen upon it. Also, it is not another New Testament, but it is a testament of Jesus Christ altogether seperate from the New Testament.

Joseph publicly announced that he had found the plates the day of after Moroni's first visit. False.

Joseph went out to the woods and dug around all morning in search of the plates. We are unaware that he needed to make multiple attempts to locate the plates.

Joseph wondered if their was actually anything buried there. False.

There was a cross on the box containing the plates. Speculation. We have no indication of that.

Inside the stone box, Joseph found the magical seer stones, loose. False. 'There were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim.' (Testimony of Joseph)

Under the stones were four gold plates written in strange writing. False. We don not know if the Urim and Thummim was on top of the plates or otherwise. There were far more than four plates, but we do not know the actual number. The writings were described by some of the witnesses as having the 'appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship'. (8 Witnesses)

The plates were the Gospel Jesus gave the Nephites. The Book of Mormon does contain the Gospel Message, meaning the message of Salvation. However it does NOT contain an account of the life of Jesus as do the Gospels of the New Testament.

The plates and the Urim & Thummim were the most amazing things Joseph ever gazed upon. False. Joseph never said this and he had seen God before he saw those plates of metal.

Upon locating the plates, Moroni appeared to Joseph again and said the he was not allowed to show the plates or the seer stones to anybody... Moroni did appear to Joseph at the site. Joseph was not allowed to show the plates to anyone other than certain witnesses chosen by the LORD. There were many that saw the plates and the Urim and Thummim. There were also others that saw the angel.

...because, first, he was to translate what was written on the plates into English so the public could all read it. False. The other witnesses of the plates saw them long before the translation and publication was complete.

Joseph found the stones and golden plates even though nobody else ever saw them. False, as stated.

Joseph told Martin Harris he possessed an ancient book written on gold plates that tells of Jesus Christ's Second Coming here in America. False. The appearance of Jesus to the Nephites was NOT the Second Coming, Joseph never claimed that.

Joseph told Martin Harris that he intended to publish the Book of Mormon. True.

Joseph knew Martin Harris had a lot of money and asked him for a little bit to pay for the publishing costs of the Book of Mormon. Martin Harris willfully mortgaged his farm against the publishing costs should the sale of the book not pay for them, he didn't actually front any cash. The publisher, having the assurance from a bank that the Harris farm would be sold and payment made if within 18 months Joseph had failed to so pay, commenced the work at the expense of his business. The sale of the Book of Mormon was poor and Martin did ultimately sell a portion of land to pay the printer his final payments.

Martin Harris hand wrote the Book of Mormon as Joseph dictated it. True, at least a portion of it.

Joseph placed the plates in the darkness of a hat so he could read their spiritual light. False. We have no indication that Joseph read the plates while they sat in a hat.

When Joseph placed the seer stones into the hat with the plates, the ancient letters lit up and changed into English enabling him to read the words to Harris. False. We have no indication from Joseph or the witnesses that this was the method whereby the Urim and Thummim operated.

Martin Harris took manuscripts of the Book of Mormon home to his wife. True. This was after many requests from Harris's wife to see the manuscripts.

Harris's wife doubted the story of the Book of Mormon. True. This is why she had requested to see the manuscripts.

Harris's wife convinced him to kept and hide the manuscript in order to prompt Joseph Smith to re-translate the selection and to thereby test Joseph's abilities. The manuscript pages taken by Harris to his wife were lost, however we do not know who exactly was behind it. Joseph never retranslated the section lost, he was forbidden to do so. The lost manuscript remains lost to this day.

Joseph prayed about what to do upon finding that the manuscript was lost. True.

The LORD was angry that Joseph had allowed Harris to take the manuscript. True. Joseph was actually told NOT to do so before he did. It was after multiple pleas that Joseph was allowed to give the manuscript to Harris. It is understood that the final authorization to loan the manuscript out was not the will of the LORD, but Joseph was only allowed to do so to teach him to accept the will of God when it was given, not to attempt to change it.

The LORD was so mad that he never allowed Joseph to translate from the plate of Lehi again... The content of the lost manuscript has come to be known as the Book of Lehi because it contains a history of Lehi. However, it was not written by Lehi and it was not written on a plate known as the plate of Lehi. It was written by Mormon upon his own plates.

The LORD told Joseph to translate from the plate of Nephi which is the same basic story as the lost manuscript but written a little bit differently. Joseph did ultimately translate the plates of Nephi which presumably did cover much of the same time period as did the lost manuscript. However, there can be no real comparison made and any assertion that Nephi covered the same basic story is total speculation.

Mormons believe the story of Joseph Smith proves itself. False.

Mormons believe the first man and woman came from Missouri and this has been proven false. Mormons do believe that Adam and Eve resided in what is modern-day Missouri after leaving the Garden of Eden. I am not aware that there has been any 'proof' that Adam and Even lived in any particular location much less some location other than what is modern-day Missouri.

Mormons believe that the Native Americans came from Jerusalem and that has been proven false. False. Mormon's believe that a small group of people came from Jerusalem to America around 600 B.C. At least some of the modern Native Americans have ancestory in them, but we do not know what groups do or do not have such ancestory. Further, the extent of the inclusion of other non-Jewish ancestory is unknown entirely. Plus, it has not been proven that this group did not come to America as told by the Book of Mormon.

Hopefully that answers some of the questions raised by that video. I understand the makers of South Park include some ex-LDS people.

-a-train

[teacherdani]

Thank you so much for clearing this up for me. I really REALLY appreciate your insight and help. I know that it may have seemed a lost cause, but it was not. Thank you!!!!

I'll make some attempt:

Joseph Smith was called a Prophet. True

He started the Mormon religion. True, in a sense. However, Mormons believe he restored an ancient religion.

He claims he spoke with God and Jesus. True.

He was out in the woods praying. True

He was asking God if He should be a Protestant or a Catholic or what. True

God and Jesus appeared before him... True

...and said he should start his own church... We are not aware that he was told that in that first vision, however he WAS ultimately commanded to organize the Church of Jesus Christ, NOT his own church.

...because none of the others had it right. True, but this is not the whole of the matter.

Many people believed Joseph. That's relative of course, today's current figure of living members is over 13 million, the highest it has ever been to date.

And that night he saw an angel. Moroni appeared to him on Sept. 21, 1823. The dialogue in the video between Joseph and Moroni is complete speculation and contains many errors.

Moroni is a native American. True, he was during his lifetime.

Joseph wondered why Moroni's skin was white. Ridiculous. I can neither answer true nor false. Moroni's skin wasn't white like my Irish skin. 'Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. (Testimony of Joseph) There is no indication whatsoever that Joseph even wondered this, much less asked Moroni about it.

Long ago all native American's were white... We have no affirmation of that from Moroni, Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon.

...and they all came to America from Jerusalem... False. The Book of Mormon teaches otherwise.

...and while they were here they were visited by Christ. True. Jesus did visit the Americas after His ascension.

Jesus lived here in America. True, in a sense I guess. He did not take up residence in America, but He was alive when he visited.

Moroni's people were all killed by the other tribe of Israel... Those called Lamanites and Nephites who actually descended from Laman and Nephi were of the same tribe of Israel. It is difficult to even address the statement it is so nonsensical.

...and as punishment, God turned their skin red... False. However, God did 'darken' the skin of the Lamanites, but long before the wars that resulted in the destruction of the Nephites. We do not know how extensive this occured among the people or what exactly it looked like.

...these are the Native Americans you know today. The war spoken of between the Nephites and Lamanites occured around 1400 years before Joseph Smith. We do not know if our how much immigration to America and subsequent changes to the gene pool could have occured in that time. We do not know to what extent the modern Native Americans resemble the Lamanites of the fifth century.

There was an ancient book buried near Joseph Smith's home written upon golden plates... True.

that accounts Moroni's people's lives. The purpose of the book is to give an account of the spiritual history of the people, it is not to be a detailed history of the secular aspects of those people's lives.

Also buried with the book were two seer stones, the Urim and Thummim which allowed Joseph to translate the writings. True.

Moroni told Joseph to find the book and fulfill his destiny. False. Moroni told Joseph precisely the location of the plates.

Joseph Smith found another new testament of Jesus Christ. False. Joseph was given the Book of Mormon, he didn't just happen upon it. Also, it is not another New Testament, but it is a testament of Jesus Christ altogether seperate from the New Testament.

Joseph publicly announced that he had found the plates the day of after Moroni's first visit. False.

Joseph went out to the woods and dug around all morning in search of the plates. We are unaware that he needed to make multiple attempts to locate the plates.

Joseph wondered if their was actually anything buried there. False.

There was a cross on the box containing the plates. Speculation. We have no indication of that.

Inside the stone box, Joseph found the magical seer stones, loose. False. 'There were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim.' (Testimony of Joseph)

Under the stones were four gold plates written in strange writing. False. We don not know if the Urim and Thummim was on top of the plates or otherwise. There were far more than four plates, but we do not know the actual number. The writings were described by some of the witnesses as having the 'appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship'. (8 Witnesses)

The plates were the Gospel Jesus gave the Nephites. The Book of Mormon does contain the Gospel Message, meaning the message of Salvation. However it does NOT contain an account of the life of Jesus as do the Gospels of the New Testament.

The plates and the Urim & Thummim were the most amazing things Joseph ever gazed upon. False. Joseph never said this and he had seen God before he saw those plates of metal.

Upon locating the plates, Moroni appeared to Joseph again and said the he was not allowed to show the plates or the seer stones to anybody... Moroni did appear to Joseph at the site. Joseph was not allowed to show the plates to anyone other than certain witnesses chosen by the LORD. There were many that saw the plates and the Urim and Thummim. There were also others that saw the angel.

...because, first, he was to translate what was written on the plates into English so the public could all read it. False. The other witnesses of the plates saw them long before the translation and publication was complete.

Joseph found the stones and golden plates even though nobody else ever saw them. False, as stated.

Joseph told Martin Harris he possessed an ancient book written on gold plates that tells of Jesus Christ's Second Coming here in America. False. The appearance of Jesus to the Nephites was NOT the Second Coming, Joseph never claimed that.

Joseph told Martin Harris that he intended to publish the Book of Mormon. True.

Joseph knew Martin Harris had a lot of money and asked him for a little bit to pay for the publishing costs of the Book of Mormon. Martin Harris willfully mortgaged his farm against the publishing costs should the sale of the book not pay for them, he didn't actually front any cash. The publisher, having the assurance from a bank that the Harris farm would be sold and payment made if within 18 months Joseph had failed to so pay, commenced the work at the expense of his business. The sale of the Book of Mormon was poor and Martin did ultimately sell a portion of land to pay the printer his final payments.

Martin Harris hand wrote the Book of Mormon as Joseph dictated it. True, at least a portion of it.

Joseph placed the plates in the darkness of a hat so he could read their spiritual light. False. We have no indication that Joseph read the plates while they sat in a hat.

When Joseph placed the seer stones into the hat with the plates, the ancient letters lit up and changed into English enabling him to read the words to Harris. False. We have no indication from Joseph or the witnesses that this was the method whereby the Urim and Thummim operated.

Martin Harris took manuscripts of the Book of Mormon home to his wife. True. This was after many requests from Harris's wife to see the manuscripts.

Harris's wife doubted the story of the Book of Mormon. True. This is why she had requested to see the manuscripts.

Harris's wife convinced him to kept and hide the manuscript in order to prompt Joseph Smith to re-translate the selection and to thereby test Joseph's abilities. The manuscript pages taken by Harris to his wife were lost, however we do not know who exactly was behind it. Joseph never retranslated the section lost, he was forbidden to do so. The lost manuscript remains lost to this day.

Joseph prayed about what to do upon finding that the manuscript was lost. True.

The LORD was angry that Joseph had allowed Harris to take the manuscript. True. Joseph was actually told NOT to do so before he did. It was after multiple pleas that Joseph was allowed to give the manuscript to Harris. It is understood that the final authorization to loan the manuscript out was not the will of the LORD, but Joseph was only allowed to do so to teach him to accept the will of God when it was given, not to attempt to change it.

The LORD was so mad that he never allowed Joseph to translate from the plate of Lehi again... The content of the lost manuscript has come to be known as the Book of Lehi because it contains a history of Lehi. However, it was not written by Lehi and it was not written on a plate known as the plate of Lehi. It was written by Mormon upon his own plates.

The LORD told Joseph to translate from the plate of Nephi which is the same basic story as the lost manuscript but written a little bit differently. Joseph did ultimately translate the plates of Nephi which presumably did cover much of the same time period as did the lost manuscript. However, there can be no real comparison made and any assertion that Nephi covered the same basic story is total speculation.

Mormons believe the story of Joseph Smith proves itself. False.

Mormons believe the first man and woman came from Missouri and this has been proven false. Mormons do believe that Adam and Eve resided in what is modern-day Missouri after leaving the Garden of Eden. I am not aware that there has been any 'proof' that Adam and Even lived in any particular location much less some location other than what is modern-day Missouri.

Mormons believe that the Native Americans came from Jerusalem and that has been proven false. False. Mormon's believe that a small group of people came from Jerusalem to America around 600 B.C. At least some of the modern Native Americans have ancestory in them, but we do not know what groups do or do not have such ancestory. Further, the extent of the inclusion of other non-Jewish ancestory is unknown entirely. Plus, it has not been proven that this group did not come to America as told by the Book of Mormon.

Hopefully that answers some of the questions raised by that video. I understand the makers of South Park include some ex-LDS people.

-a-train

[Princess3dward]

"Joseph publicly announced that he had found the plates the day of after Moroni's first visit. False."

Some anti mormons actually believe that it wasn't until he was 21 that anyone knew about it.

I think that is silly, but how would I know?

"Joseph placed the plates in the darkness of a hat so he could read their spiritual light. False. We have no indication that Joseph read the plates while they sat in a hat."

Where is Maureen?

She gave me a link to a site with BYU essays.

In those essays, students researched that he and his father were gold diggers, and also that he would read out of his hat to block the sunlight.

That is just what it said in essays from other members of the church though. That just means that not all members believe this false.

"When Joseph placed the seer stones into the hat with the plates, the ancient letters lit up and changed into English enabling him to read the words to Harris. False. We have no indication from Joseph or the witnesses that this was the method whereby the Urim and Thummim operated."

Same as above.

[Palerider]

"Joseph publicly announced that he had found the plates the day of after Moroni's first visit. False."

Some anti mormons actually believe that it wasn't until he was 21 that anyone knew about it.

I think that is silly, but how would I know?

"Joseph placed the plates in the darkness of a hat so he could read their spiritual light. False. We have no indication that Joseph read the plates while they sat in a hat."

Where is Maureen?

She gave me a link to a site with BYU essays.

In those essays, students researched that he and his father were gold diggers, and also that he would read out of his hat to block the sunlight.

That is just what it said in essays from other members of the church though. That just means that not all members believe this false.

"When Joseph placed the seer stones into the hat with the plates, the ancient letters lit up and changed into English enabling him to read the words to Harris. False. We have no indication from Joseph or the witnesses that this was the method whereby the Urim and Thummim operated."

Same as above.

hip hip hooray for anti Mormons.....

[Princess3dward]

Lol. I just thought it was interesting. I learned that when I went to the hill Camora(sp?). TONS of anti's there, which in my opinion was dumb. They were probably there hours before the first members were.

[Palerider]

Lol. I just thought it was interesting. I learned that when I went to the hill Camora(sp?). TONS of anti's there, which in my opinion was dumb. They were probably there hours before the first members were.

well you sure have done alot of things for your 1year in the church...

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Lol. I just thought it was interesting. I learned that when I went to the hill Camora(sp?). TONS of anti's there, which in my opinion was dumb. They were probably there hours before the first members were.

well you sure have done alot of things for your 1year in the church...

My whole family is pretty hard core...

My dad and grandpa both have OCD.

They breathe church...

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Lol. I just thought it was interesting. I learned that when I went to the hill Camora(sp?). TONS of anti's there, which in my opinion was dumb. They were probably there hours before the first members were.

well you sure have done alot of things for your 1year in the church...

My whole family is pretty hard core...

My dad and grandpa both have OCD.

They breathe church...

so if your not a member why get involved.....

[pushka]

Pale, behave yourself! She was a member, remember!! :)

Am I doing a good audition for that Moderator post?

[Palerider]

Pale, behave yourself! She was a member, remember!! :)

Am I doing a good audition for that Moderator post?

but only for a year.....I am very suspicous.....have to really bite my tongue......GGGGrrrrr

yes Pushka....you are doing good... :)