Adam & Eve

[beebeemoma2002]

I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

[lds_mormon]

It's my understanding that it was an essential part of God's plan. Had they not partaken of the fruit, they could not have conceived children, and sin and death would not have entered the world. So had they not done that, none of us would not be here, Adam and Eve would have never been able to re-enter heaven (as they would still be living here on earth) and the concept of free agency, which was an eternal principle conceived before the foundation of the world was laid, would have never come to fruition.

So I'd say yeah, it was part of the plan, or if it wasn't, God knew what was going to happen and worked it into his plan.

[Gwen]

“Lesson 4: The Fall of Adam and Eve,” Primary 6: Old Testament, (1996),13

1. The fall of Adam and Eve was foreseen by Heavenly Father and “was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us” (Gospel Principles, p. 33). We accepted this condition in the spirit world when we supported Heavenly Father’s plan.

2. “Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden” (Gospel Principles, p. 33).

3. After Adam and Eve “fell” from the presence of God and became mortal, we needed a Savior so we could live again and return to our Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the world was created. (See lesson 2.)

[Princess3dward]

"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy" 1 Nephi 2:25 if I haven't forgotten.

[Traveler]

I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

This is a most interesting thought - That man would partake of the fruit was within the plan of G-d. The method in which Satan was able to separate Adam and Eve in the manner in which the fruit was taken was not what G-d intended - Thus Satan thought to subvert the plan of G-d.

The Traveler

[Brother Dorsey]

I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

Any insights anyone?

Actually, this is true....We were only supposed to have spring, summer and winter! The fall was just a glitch satan threw in the mix what with all those damn leaves we have to rake and all.

[onyx]

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I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

Any insights anyone?

Actually, this is true....We were only supposed to have spring, summer and winter! The fall was just a glitch satan threw in the mix what with all those damn leaves we have to rake and all.

[Palerider]

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I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

Any insights anyone?

Actually, this is true....We were only supposed to have spring, summer and winter! The fall was just a glitch satan threw in the mix what with all those damn leaves we have to rake and all.

I just use my lawn mower and blow them into my neighbors yard....

[onyx]

Very norrrteee of you Pale!!

Onyx

[Gwen]

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I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

This is a most interesting thought - That man would partake of the fruit was within the plan of G-d. The method in which Satan was able to separate Adam and Eve in the manner in which the fruit was taken was not what G-d intended - Thus Satan thought to subvert the plan of G-d.

The Traveler

traveler, are you saying that partaking of the fruit was not part of the plan? if so what is your understanding of the primary lesson points i quoted earlier in this topic?

i've always seen it as very much part of the plan. agency had to be part of the plan and the two (agency and being cast out of god's presence) had to be justified (can not rob justice). it was the only way. thus it is a transgression not a sin; had to be done; needed to be done, but was told not to (maintaining agency). a sin is when it need not be done for any purpose; the consequence is a true punishment, not just a result of an action. adam and eve were not "punished" per say, did receive the consequence that embarked them on the next phase of the eternal plan. in fact if you really broke it down i'd imagine you could claim they received more blessings from partaking of the fruit than "punishment".

on another note to suggest that the fall was not part of the plan suggests there was another way for that to be accomplished. so what other way was laid out for the plan to progress? until the fruit adam and eve were clean, there was no justification to be cast out. to say everything in god's plan could be accomplished without "bad" things happening would open the door to say that jesus being born in a stable or dieing on the cross was not part of the plan. in every lesson i've ever heard not just a birth and death were necessary but that he decended below all, he could say he was as the lowliest of all. if "bad" things are not part of the plan then we could theorieticly have a very different story and still have the will of god. joseph could have planned better and jesus could have been born in a very fancy location, as a king ought to have been born; suffered in the garden as planned but then survived the false trials (if they happened at all) and lived to a ripe old age bearing many babies. lol i know there are some here that would argue that one imeadiately on several points. all he endured was "necessary". the "bad" was part of the plan. is it so hard to believe that "bad" things would be part of the individual "plan" for each of us? things to make us stronger, give us motivation, passion, understanding, wisdom, testamony, faith, bring us to exaultation. one mans sin may be anothers transgression.

i do agree that satan "thought to subvert the plan of god". in actuality he brought it about. i like to think there was a bit of reverse psycology being used on him. it's not hard to do with someone so filled with hate that you can predict their every move, while they think little about their next move beyond their hate filled motivations. lol

on a side note. i did not hear the talk is being refered to and do not know the context of it. there may be more that he said that would clarify his thoughts. my comments are strictly based on the statment given "the fall was not part of the plan". that statment alone with no other comments surrounding it i do not agree with.

[mmm12345]

Could we perhaps say that the fall was not so much "the plan" as much as a natural outflow of the plan, a byproduct of the soul God fashioned. I mean, He chose to create us as He saw fit, knowing that we had the ability to choose to obey wholeheartedly or make a choice against His will and direction. The plan was to create man. He "knew" more than he "planned" to give us that ability, the ability to choose, to sin, to fall; therefore, because the fall was a part of the designing process He saw fit to provide a way to overcome that natural consequence of freewill.

[AnthonyB]

Many non-LDS Christain find the idea of the fall being in God's plans offensive because it appears to make God want us to sin and fall away from him. We find it hard to see God wanting his children to suffer the pain and suffering that sin brough about.

However I've always thought the the incarnation and ressurection were central parts to God's plan, from our perspective the fall was a necessary evil that allowed that to occurr.

Have any of you read Lewis' "Perelandria", where he retells the fall story but occurring on Venus. The Venutians manage to obtain the knowledge of good and evil without having to actually disobey God. However Ransom the man from earth is needed to assist in the gaining of this knowledge. (So even though he avoids needing the fall to occurr on that planet, it was stilll necessary for Ransom to have been subject to it.)

Could the knowledge of good and evil occurred for us without a fall? What would that have meant for Jesus, given no need for atonement?

For me, God is never surpirsed as he exist in an eternal now. He knows without having to control it, what would occurr and is as ever his want turned the failure into a chance for greater redemption.

[Traveler]

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I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

This is a most interesting thought - That man would partake of the fruit was within the plan of G-d. The method in which Satan was able to separate Adam and Eve in the manner in which the fruit was taken was not what G-d intended - Thus Satan thought to subvert the plan of G-d.

The Traveler

traveler, are you saying that partaking of the fruit was not part of the plan? if so what is your understanding of the primary lesson points i quoted earlier in this topic?

I am not sure how you missed my point - G-d planned that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit but I believe that G-d wanted them to make that decision of sacrifice together. Satan knew that G-d set the table that the greater good would be acomplished by partaking of the fruit and that in time Adam and Eve would decide together to make the sacrifice for the benefit of mankind. What Satan did was cause a break down in the covenant to act as "one" and force Adam and Eve apart in partaking of the fruit - This is why Satan never aproached to two together. Note too that when ever G-d addressed Adam and Eve he addressed them together.

Satan is still seeking that a man and a woman should not covenant together as one. Not much has changed.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

It was always part of God's plan for us all to obtain mortal bodies and live here on earth.

It was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin or transgress.

Yes, He wanted them to obtain a knowledge of good and evil.

No, He did not "want" them to transgress His command.

Ultimately, I'm confident that Heavenly Father designed Eden as a way-station, not a destination, from the beginning.

[Palerider]

Very norrrteee of you Pale!!

Onyx

[Annabelli]

Perhaps we should stop calling everything "The Fall" and that should bring real meaning to everything that is being called "The Fall."

I have heard some people refer to the Crucifixion as "The Fall." And just what is that "Fall" supposed to mean?

[BenRaines]

i have never heard of the crucfixion as The Fall. I have only heard of The Fall in regards to Adam and Eve.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

Ditto.

[musashi]

I guess I'm changing topic perhaps??? Not sure if I should have started a new thread to ask this question. What I want to know is what are LDS beliefs about Eve?

Is there some website where I could look up LDS doctrine about Eve?

[Gwen]

i've never heard anything but adam and eve partaking of the fruit and leaving the garden as "the fall".

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I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

This is a most interesting thought - That man would partake of the fruit was within the plan of G-d. The method in which Satan was able to separate Adam and Eve in the manner in which the fruit was taken was not what G-d intended - Thus Satan thought to subvert the plan of G-d.

The Traveler

traveler, are you saying that partaking of the fruit was not part of the plan? if so what is your understanding of the primary lesson points i quoted earlier in this topic?

I am not sure how you missed my point - G-d planned that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit but I believe that G-d wanted them to make that decision of sacrifice together. Satan knew that G-d set the table that the greater good would be acomplished by partaking of the fruit and that in time Adam and Eve would decide together to make the sacrifice for the benefit of mankind. What Satan did was cause a break down in the covenant to act as "one" and force Adam and Eve apart in partaking of the fruit - This is why Satan never aproached to two together. Note too that when ever G-d addressed Adam and Eve he addressed them together.

Satan is still seeking that a man and a woman should not covenant together as one. Not much has changed.

The Traveler

i can see how i missed your point. lol thank you for the clarification, makes much more since now. i've not thought about "how" they partook of the fruit. interesting idea. is that something you have come up with from your own ponderings or any references for that? i hope that question makes since. lol i just think it would be an interesting concept to look into.

[Annabelli]

i have never heard of the crucfixion as The Fall. I have only heard of The Fall in regards to Adam and Eve.

Ben Raines

When I put "The Fall" in search on LDS.org/Scriptures, I got back 291 replies.

[Palerider]

I guess I'm changing topic perhaps??? Not sure if I should have started a new thread to ask this question. What I want to know is what are LDS beliefs about Eve?

Is there some website where I could look up LDS doctrine about Eve?

try LDS.org

[Old Tex]

I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Faters plan.

It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

I can't figure a stake president making such a statement. Are you sure that you understood him correctly. If this bothers you, you should ask him for a clearification the next time you see him. Better yet, get his phone number and give him a call.

[a-train]

I was at a meeting and my stake president said something that confused me. He said the the Fall wasn't apart of Heavenly Father's plan. It was always my understanding that it was. I thought that they were instructed to not eat the fruit but(this is my opinion not church doctirne) it was only like a probation period. Like they weren't allowed to eat it till they had progressed enough to be ready to gain the understanding from the fruit. That may not be true but I always thought that the fall was apart of the plan. I mean if it wasn't known that they would fall, why would we have had a need for a savior? Any insights anyone?

Hmmm.....

The Fall of Adam WAS part of the plan of our Father in Heaven. Read what Lehi said to Jacob in 2 Nephi 2.

'And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents... it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.' (2 Nephi 2:25)

'And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.' (verses 22-24)

Now, Adam and Eve weren't allowed at some point to partake of the forbidden fruit, it was forbidden always. It was the plan of God to institute both good and evil and to give man his agency. Without the fall of Adam, this could not have been.

-a-train

[Traveler]

i can see how i missed your point. lol thank you for the clarification, makes much more since now. i've not thought about "how" they partook of the fruit. interesting idea. is that something you have come up with from your own ponderings or any references for that? i hope that question makes since. lol i just think it would be an interesting concept to look into.

Thank you for taking time to understand. In response to your question; I do not believe that any thoughts are unique to an individual. I have tried to express this notion – encouraging a understanding of the source of our thoughts. Such a concept encountered hostility. This particular concept (of a man and a woman working together to fulfill their covenants) has roots with Hugh Nibly. And yes, I have pondered this teaching carefully. I believe the oneness in marriage covenant is so important that it is more important that a man and a woman are one in their marriage that such oneness precedes one or the other being right on their own.

The Traveler