Holy Ghost - What do we know about him?

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not really, nothing you just posted is contrary to what I posted or felt.  Perhaps I phrased it badly, but what I stated is not contradicted by anything you just presented there.

Of course it is contradictory.  Gods don't have to go through the Plan of Salvation to become Gods because they're already God.  Jesus Christ did because He offered Himself as a sacrifice to fulfill the atonement.  Gods do not sin which is why they are Gods.  Jesus did not sin because He is God.  Adam sinned, Joseph Smith sinned, etc... so they were not Gods.  Mortals don't become Gods until the Final Judgment which has not yet happened.

[JohnsonJones]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Of course it is contradictory.  Gods don't have to go through the Plan of Salvation to become Gods because they're already God.  Jesus Christ did because He offered Himself as a sacrifice to fulfill the atonement.  Gods do not sin which is why they are Gods.  Jesus did not sin because He is God.  Adam sinned, Joseph Smith sinned, etc... so they were not Gods.  Mortals don't become Gods until the Final Judgment which has not yet happened.

I don't think you understand the point.  Joseph Smith as a MORTAL sinned, obviously, but he existed before he was Known as Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost has not gotten their body yet, they are still a spirit, the same as others who are spirits in the pre-existence and have not yet received their bodies (or in theory, those who have died but not yet been resurrected).

The same with Adam, who was Michael the Archangel prior to his coming to earth and after his coming to earth. 

As Children of Humans are Humans, Children of gods are gods.  They may not be exalted, but that heritage of theirs helped them to build this earth (at least that is a belief some believe in that are Latter-day Saints).  (refer to the Book of Abraham).

The idea is that the Godhead is composed of three beings.  This can be seen as a Heavenly First Presidency.  My feeling on this then would be that Adam as Michael, before he came to this Earth was part of that Presidency of Three individual beings.  If he was part of that presidency, and the Holy Ghost is as well (as default being a member of the this Heavenly Presidency), than that would mean that Michael, by default, would have been the Holy Ghost in that organization at the beginning.

Obviously, when he came to earth, and was a Mortal Adam, he could not have been the Holy Ghost, thus the idea that another was called to be the Holy Ghost in his stead.

Now, that is obviously opinion, as nothing in the Bible or Book of Mormon confers that Adam was part of the Godhead or part of the First presidency.  There is nothing to even say that he was part of this three fold governing body that we can find in the scriptures, thus anything dealing with the idea that he would have been part of a First Presidency of Heaven is, obviously, something that is of my own opinion and not particularly with scriptural basis.  The same could be stated of Joseph Smith also being the Holy Ghost at any point in his pre-mortal existence.

However, there is nothing that says they could not have been either.  I will say that I do not feel that the scriptures as you read them back up this idea of mine where I feel that the Father, the Son, and Michael were the ones who organized and created the Earth, and thus you are free to disagree with that idea and my opinion of it.  (though as per prophets, we do know that Michael/Adam did help to make this world, though at least one also infers we also helped to make this world).

However, as far as I can see and understand, nothing you have posted actually goes contrary to this idea either, nor my ideas of who the Holy Ghost could have been.  There is some of it that I cannot discuss my reasons for my opinions on HOW I formed these opinions, at least in this forum or public locations or outside specific and certain areas that I have aforementioned, but that said, even if it is speculation, it is something that we can agree we simply don't see eye to eye upon.

Edited August 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[mikbone]

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Gods don't have to go through the Plan of Salvation to become Gods because they're already God. 

As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, mikbone said:

As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.

Sure.  But they were ALREADY GODS when the Plan of Salvation was given to us.

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't think you understand the point.  Joseph Smith as a MORTAL sinned, obviously, but he existed before he was Known as Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost has not gotten their body yet, they are still a spirit, the same as others who are spirits in the pre-existence and have not yet received their bodies (or in theory, those who have died but not yet been resurrected).

The same with Adam, who was Michael the Archangel prior to his coming to earth and after his coming to earth. 

The bolded above is an incorrect reading.  The Holy Ghost being a personage without a body doesn't mean that "he has not gotten a body yet".  You cannot be a God and not have a Body.  But, just as Jesus Christ can shed His Body and take on a Mortal Body being fully Divine while being Fully Mortal, so can the other personages of the Godhead do so if their calling requires it.  But the fact still remains - the Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead and is, therefore, Fully Divine.  Adam is not.  Joseph Smith is not.  Therefore, Adam and Joseph needed to come into Mortality like all of us to gain full understanding and knowledge - line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded above is an incorrect reading.  The Holy Ghost being a personage without a body doesn't mean that "he has not gotten a body yet".  You cannot be a God and not have a Body.  But, just as Jesus Christ can shed His Body and take on a Mortal Body being fully Divine while being Fully Mortal, so can the other personages of the Godhead do so if their calling requires it.  But the fact still remains - the Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead and is, therefore, Fully Divine.  Adam is not.  Joseph Smith is not.  Therefore, Adam and Joseph needed to come into Mortality like all of us to gain full understanding and knowledge - line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

 

I find less to support your opinion on this than my own take, but we are free to belief what we wish.  I see nothing that indicates that the Holy Ghost has gotten a body.  In fact, that it is defined as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost would indicate it, in fact, has not.  However, we can differ on this belief.

As the Brigham Young tradition would say, you cannot be an EXALTED BEING and not have a body, but you most certainly can be a god (lower case) and not have a body.  I suppose it depends on your definition.  In my opinion, as from the Book of Abraham, because of who we were, and the intelligences as we were, we helped to make this earth.  We were directed by our Father and the Lord, but we also helped to create it.  As we are his children, it is only natural that we also have this ability to do as he does, and to eventually, become as he is.

We are NOT Exalted, but to say that we are not his children, and as children, the same in component ability and make as he is, just like our children have the same potential as we do in the most part, in my opinion does not make sense.  It is, as if your little children can still build things out of legos, or perhaps even if you give them a hammer, help to build a house.  However, on their own, they probably could not figure out how to build a strong or good house as little children.  That is something that parents typically have a better knowledge of then children (and even then, many adults could not build a strong or decent house either, but their having the knowledge to do so is better than a little childs).  In the same way, as our children are human as we are, so is the Father's children as he is in what race and creature they are.  They are not fully developed (Exalted), but have the potential to develop (attain exaltation), just like our children have that potential.

On this we will disagree I see. 

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded above is an incorrect reading.  The Holy Ghost being a personage without a body doesn't mean that "he has not gotten a body yet".  You cannot be a God and not have a Body.  But, just as Jesus Christ can shed His Body and take on a Mortal Body being fully Divine while being Fully Mortal, so can the other personages of the Godhead do so if their calling requires it.  But the fact still remains - the Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead and is, therefore, Fully Divine.  Adam is not.  Joseph Smith is not.  Therefore, Adam and Joseph needed to come into Mortality like all of us to gain full understanding and knowledge - line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

 

I do not intend to argue nuances of doctrine as much as principles that are and must be true.  Jesus was a member of the G-d head from the very beginning of the plan of salvation and all associated covenants long before he was born of Mary.  He was the Great I AM of the Old Testament and the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Sometimes I have a difficult time trying to figure out terms used by people.  For example, when you say "Fully Divine" - I do not understand what difference you are trying to describe (or make) that is so unworthy from singular term "Devine"?  For me the adverb "Fully" adds nothing to the conversation and appears to be meaningless.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not intend to argue nuances of doctrine as much as principles that are and must be true.  Jesus was a member of the G-d head from the very beginning of the plan of salvation and all associated covenants long before he was born of Mary.  He was the Great I AM of the Old Testament and the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Sometimes I have a difficult time trying to figure out terms used by people.  For example, when you say "Fully Divine" - I do not understand what difference you are trying to describe (or make) that is so unworthy from singular term "Devine"?  For me the adverb "Fully" adds nothing to the conversation and appears to be meaningless.

 

The Traveler

It is an important distinction when Jesus was born of Mary - he did not become Just Mortal nor was he Half-Divine Half-Mortal.  Rather, he was Fully Divine while at the same time Fully Mortal.  This distinction is very important especially in the discussion where somebody is making an argument that Adam or Joseph Smith are the Holy Ghost as well as using the teaching of the Holy Ghost being a personage of Spirit.  Adam and Joseph being the Holy Ghost is, of course, impossible as neither Adam nor Joseph were Fully Divine while being Fully Mortal - something that a personage in the Godhead would HAVE TO BE.  At the same time, as Jesus divested of his Body to become Fully Mortal while remaining Fully Divine, so too can the Holy Ghost divest of his Body and remain Fully Divine to dwell within us.

[anatess2]

38 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I find less to support your opinion on this than my own take, but we are free to belief what we wish.  I see nothing that indicates that the Holy Ghost has gotten a body.  In fact, that it is defined as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost would indicate it, in fact, has not.  However, we can differ on this belief.

I am not speculating.   It is REQUIRED to have qualified for a perfected body to be a God.  It is, after all, the main teaching of the resurrection.

And this is why speculating is a dangerous sport.  You get to be speculating so far into deep space that you end up unmoored from the foundations of Christ's teaching.  Most, if not all of the things you stated here about the Holy Ghost are in this territory.

 

 

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

It is an important distinction when Jesus was born of Mary - he did not become Just Mortal nor was he Half-Divine Half-Mortal.  Rather, he was Fully Divine while at the same time Fully Mortal.  This distinction is very important especially in the discussion where somebody is making an argument that Adam or Joseph Smith are the Holy Ghost as well as using the teaching of the Holy Ghost being a personage of Spirit.  Adam and Joseph being the Holy Ghost is, of course, impossible as neither Adam nor Joseph were Fully Divine while being Fully Mortal - something that a personage in the Godhead would HAVE TO BE.  At the same time, as Jesus divested of his Body to become Fully Mortal while remaining Fully Divine, so too can the Holy Ghost divest of his Body and remain Fully Divine to dwell within us.

It appears to me that the term "Fully" is an attempt to teach for doctrine the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.  Joseph Smith was given the Gift of the Holy Ghost the same as was Peter (the ancient apostle of Christ).  But for someone to understand the truth of the Holy Ghost they must have the Gift of the Holy Ghost and through that gift and faith in Jesus Christ all things that are true are made known.  Our arguments of Adam or Joseph Smith may be fun discussion but are not necessary to know the truth.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Sure.  But they were ALREADY GODS when the Plan of Salvation was given to us.

Sure.  But there was a time prior to our organization as spirit children of God, when we were intelligences (devoid of the knowledge of the Plan of Salvation).

Of course this was a LONG time ago.  And during that period of time the Character that we now know as Elohim was a man - like us.

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It appears to me that the term "Fully" is an attempt to teach for doctrine the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.  Joseph Smith was given the Gift of the Holy Ghost the same as was Peter (the ancient apostle of Christ).  But for someone to understand the truth of the Holy Ghost they must have the Gift of the Holy Ghost and through that gift and faith in Jesus Christ all things that are true are made known.  Our arguments of Adam or Joseph Smith may be fun discussion but are not necessary to know the truth.

 

The Traveler

Traveler... you are completely removed from the conversation happening above.  "Philosophies of men mingled in scripture" is FULLY on the other side of this conversation.

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Sure.  But there was a time prior to our organization as spirit children of God, when we were intelligences (devoid of the knowledge of the Plan of Salvation).

Of course this was a LONG time ago.  And during that period of time the Character that we now know as Elohim was a man - like us.

Which has ZERO to do with JohnsonJones' claim that Adam - the First Man - is the Holy Ghost - a personage of the Godhead.

Edited August 19, 2019 by anatess2

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Traveler... you are completely removed from the conversation happening above.  "Philosophies of men mingled in scripture" is FULLY on the other side of this conversation.

Obviously I must be very naive.  Can you please help me out and give me an example from scripture (not from the philosophies of men) where the term Fully Divine is used to describe anything concerning G-d (including Jesus Christ) instead of just divine?

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

To clarify, I would state that Jesus Christ had a 100% mortal body with a spirit and intellect that was 100% divine.

He possessed the priesthood power to lay down his life and take it up again.

He inherited mortality from his Mother Mary, and learned divinity from his Father.

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Obviously I must be very naive.  Can you please help me out and give me an example from scripture (not from the philosophies of men) where the term Fully Divine is used to describe anything concerning G-d (including Jesus Christ) instead of just divine?

 

The Traveler

Traveler... where in Scripture does it say that we should not drink COFFEE?

This is not about words.  This is about telling JohnsonJones that Adam or Joseph Smith being the Holy Ghost is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

In any case, Fully Divine is taught in many scriptures even as the exact phrasing is not used - see Matthew 28:18 and Colossians 2:9, for example.  The phrase Fully Divine appears in several of our manuals to describe the fullness of the Godhead including Bodily Fullness.  For example:  the pre-CFM Seminary NT manual which appears when searching for the phrase in lds.org.

Edited August 19, 2019 by anatess2

[mikbone]

23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Which has ZERO to do with JohnsonJones' claim that Adam - the First Man - is the Holy Ghost - a personage of the Godhead.

We don’t know the identity of the Holy Ghost.  

But, I think he is different than us.  He is not in our current stage of the Plan of Salvation.  

[anatess2]

Just now, mikbone said:

We don’t know the identity of the Holy Ghost.  

But, I think he is different than us.  He is not in our current stage of the Plan of Salvation.  

We DO know.  The Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead.  Saying that we don't know the identity of the Holy Ghost is like saying we don't know the identity of the Father.

[mikbone]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We DO know.  The Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead.  Saying that we don't know the identity of the Holy Ghost is like saying we don't know the identity of the Father.

I don’t know his name or background.  I know some of his abilities and the feelings of his influence.

 

I don’t know the identity of the Father either.  I used to know him better in the pre-mortal existence.  I hope to know him though.

[anatess2]

Just now, mikbone said:

I don’t know his name or background.  I know some of his abilities and the feelings of his influence.

 

I don’t know the identity of the Father either.  I used to know him better in the pre-mortal existence.  I hope to know him though.

Well, if your definition of "Know Him" is only applicable if God was mortal, then sure.  You don't know both the Father and the Holy Ghost.  I don't see it that way.  I know a lot of things about the Father and the Holy Ghost just as I know a lot of things about Jesus Christ.  If not, it would be quite impossible to have a personal relationship with them.

[mikbone]

7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, if your definition of "Know Him" is only applicable if God was mortal, then sure.  You don't know both the Father and the Holy Ghost.  I don't see it that way.  I know a lot of things about the Father and the Holy Ghost just as I know a lot of things about Jesus Christ.  If not, it would be quite impossible to have a personal relationship with them.

Perhaps you can have a relationship with God because He understands you completely.

In all likelihood, your (and my) knowledge of God would fill a thimble-full of the oceans of his grandness. 

[JohnsonJones]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I am not speculating.   It is REQUIRED to have qualified for a perfected body to be a God.  It is, after all, the main teaching of the resurrection.

And this is why speculating is a dangerous sport.  You get to be speculating so far into deep space that you end up unmoored from the foundations of Christ's teaching.  Most, if not all of the things you stated here about the Holy Ghost are in this territory.

 

 

I'm not speculating.  No where in the scriptures, temple, or anywhere does it say that the Holy Ghost has a body of flesh and bone or even of flesh.  It says nowhere that he is a resurrected being. 

There ARE locations where one could have an inference that Adam was part of the Godhead.  It was so strongly felt by Brigham Young that he gave talks about it that inspired people on the non-doctrinal interpretation of his statements to create the Adam-God theory. It is from these statements that we get various other items regarding eternal families, genealogy, temple work, and the eternal nature of the Father and our ability to become like him.

What this appears is that you are confusing THE GOD with Godhead, and the FATHER with gods, as well as Exaltation with being the Children of God.  You have a different interpretation and as such, we probably will not see eye to eye on this (as I think I've stated several times previously to this).

Your interpretation and belief on this seems to be at odds with what my belief is.

As I said, my speculation on Michael also being the Holy Ghost during a period of his pre-existence is not contradicted by anything that I can see.  You have not really posted anything from the LDS beliefs that contradicts this idea (though from your personal belief...sure...but not from the official teachings of the church) as far as I can see.

It never states that for godhead one is required to have a body of Flesh.  In fact, as per the Lord in the New Testament, a verse I already quoted, he says something very different than that.

Edited August 20, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Well, if your definition of "Know Him" is only applicable if God was mortal, then sure.  You don't know both the Father and the Holy Ghost.  I don't see it that way.  I know a lot of things about the Father and the Holy Ghost just as I know a lot of things about Jesus Christ.  If not, it would be quite impossible to have a personal relationship with them.

Just so you know some BACKING of this, though this is NOT from my preferred site of the Official Church resources (official church site)...

Joseph Smith and the Office of the Holy Ghost

This idea or speculation of mine is NOT uncommon and is NOT a new one.  It is something that's been in the Church for a VERY LONG TIME.

Quote

Vern G. Swanson has written:

The most widespread is the belief that Smith was the Holy Ghost; or more correctly stated, that he represented the emanating spirit of the Father and the Son. This theory arose from several sources. In a 9 March 1841 discourse Joseph Smith apparently discussed three gods who covenanted to preside over this creation: "[An] Everlasting Covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and [it] relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth." These three gods, some argue, were Father Adam for the beginning of the mortal world, Christ for the Meridian of Time, and Joseph Smith for the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. Others have seen Doctrine and Covenants 135:3 as evidence for Smith being the Holy Ghost: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that ever lived in it." Accordingly, Christ did the most to save humanity and is the second member of the Godhead; therefore, Smith, who did second to the most, is the third member.

That such notions have circulated in the church since 1844 is made clear by comments from church leaders contradicting these views. In August 1845 Orson Pratt wrote to church members responding to rumors that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost incarnate: "Let no false doctrine proceed out of your mouth, such, for instance that the tabernacle of our martyred prophet and seer, or of any other person, was or is the especial tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, in a different sense from that considered in relation to his residence in other tabernacles. These are doctrines not revealed, and are neither believed nor sanctioned by the Twelve and should be rejected by every Saint."^[3]

The misunderstanding or misleading idea is quoted below that, where it states that since Joseph Smith was mortal he could not have been the Holy Ghost in mortality

(well...duh...)

But does not address the actual idea that he held the Office of the Holy Ghost in premortality, nor does it address the idea that Michael/Adam did as well.

As far as the Holy Ghost being a resurrected Being...from the same site...Joseph Also stated...

Quote

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Which seems to go exactly contrary to what you seem to think about the Holy Ghost and a physical body.

Edited August 20, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Traveler... where in Scripture does it say that we should not drink COFFEE?

This is not about words.  This is about telling JohnsonJones that Adam or Joseph Smith being the Holy Ghost is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

In any case, Fully Divine is taught in many scriptures even as the exact phrasing is not used - see Matthew 28:18 and Colossians 2:9, for example.  The phrase Fully Divine appears in several of our manuals to describe the fullness of the Godhead including Bodily Fullness.  For example:  the pre-CFM Seminary NT manual which appears when searching for the phrase in lds.org.

My dear Anatess2,  I do so appreciate your inputs.  I have thought much on this subject since the above post.  I would address your references to Matthew 28:18 and Colossians 2:9.  It appears to me that these references are applicable to the resurrected and glorified Christ.  It is my understanding that scripture references to the "earthly" ministry of Jesus as a "condescension".  -  Meaning to lower himself or to give up something.  I do not know how Jesus could condescend to save us without sacrificing something.

The usual idea of the sacrifice of Christ was his dying for us.  And so I would ask – Is a “Fully Divine” being; mortal even capable of death?  Did not Jesus have to sacrifice some of the “Fully Divine” in order to be subject to death and suffer for sins.  I submit that he also sacrificed his glory to come to earth as a man and take upon him our sins.   Was not Jesus restored to his former glory in the resurrection?  Why or how could that be if he was already “Fully Divine”.

 

The Traveler

[dprh]

On 8/19/2019 at 8:49 AM, anatess2 said:

  You cannot be a God and not have a Body.  But, just as Jesus Christ can shed His Body and take on a Mortal Body being fully Divine while being Fully Mortal, so can the other personages of the Godhead do so if their calling requires it.  

I'm confused by this statement.  Are you saying that in OT times, Jesus as Jehovah had a body? And when he was born of Mary, he got a new, mortal body?  Or are you saying that now that Jesus is resurrected with a Celestial body that he can make it mortal?  Either way, I don't agree.  I thought scripture and modern teachings were clear that Jehovah had a spiritual body, but need to be born to receive a physical body.