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TheTanakas

Conditions that make agency possible

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On 2/26/2020 at 3:48 PM, TheTanakas said:

Eve's first choice was to obey or disobey God's command 'not to eat' from the forbidden
tree.  When she was deceived, her choice then expanded to 'do I believe God or Satan?'
Even in our society, we make many choices even though the devil is trying to deceive
us. This does not make choice/agency less valid.

Interesting that you consider this literal - Satan (the serpent) said that they would not die.  And they did not die in the day they partook -  Adam lived over 900 years after partaking the fruit.  Plus - you cannot argue that they understood that they were doing anything evil (wrong) - they did not have that ability because they had not partaken of the fruit.  You insist that they knew or ought to have known better when scripture indicates the exact opposite.  Little children are not held accountable because they do not have the power to be accountable - yet you insist the Adam and Eve - and them only be held accountable when they had no knowledge, experience or intelligence to be accountable.    While on the cross Jesus said to forgive those that did not know what they were doing.  This scripture clearly indicates the opposite of what you claim - that G-d does hold the ignorant accountable.  Obvious those without accountability cannot be held accountable even if they are told otherwise.  

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Do you have a scripture to indicate what you mean?

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die

only Adam and Eve choose to partake of the fruit - yet G-d said that those that partake of the fruit will die.  Why then will anyone that did not partake of the fruit die?  Does not the scripture literally say that one must partake of the fruit to die?  Unless all that die (are born mortal) did symbolically partake of the fruit?

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It seems you are criticizing God for his actions because he has foreknowledge.  But what
kind of human parent are you if you want to bring children into this world knowing full 
well that your child will suffer along the way?  

Exactly - if you know crocodiles will cause the death of little children and you deliberately place you child where a crocodile will kill them - you are a horrible parent and are responsible for their death.  It is not the fault of children - even if you warn your children about the danger of crocodiles.  And just in case you were not paying attention - G-d never warned his little children that the serpent was dangerous nor did he anything to protect his little children from the serpent knowing full will what the serpent would do.  

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The Cherubim were not placed to guard the Tree of Life for the salvation of Adam and Eve. They were
placed there to prevent them from eating from it after they had eaten from the forbidden tree.  You
are confusing the role of the Cherubim with the role of Jesus.

The word use in the King James Version is the Cherubim were placed to "Keep" the way to the tree of life.  I suggest you read this scripture more carefully.  Also if you are to read the Book of Mormon - you would realize that G-d fully intends for all his children to partake of the fruit of the tree of life.  Also Alma told his son that the Tree of Life is symbolic.  Also that the Iron Rod, which leads to the tree of life is symbolic of the Word - which is Christ and the testimony of Christ.  Why would the Tree of Life be symbolic but not the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

yet you insist the Adam and Eve - and them only be held accountable when they had no knowledge, experience or intelligence to be accountable. 

They had knowledge and ability to know how to obey or disobey God's commandment not to
eat.

What do you mean by 'they had no knowledge or intelligence'?

 Why would the Tree of Life be symbolic but not the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil ?

If you are asking me from a Book of Mormon perspective, I do not know. If you are asking me
from a Bible perspective, I would say that the Tree of Life, the forbidden tree, and all the other
trees in the garden are not symbolic of anything in my opinion.

 

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On 2/28/2020 at 3:03 PM, TheTanakas said:

They had knowledge and ability to know how to obey or disobey God's commandment not to
eat.

What do you mean by 'they had no knowledge or intelligence'?

 

 

If you are asking me from a Book of Mormon perspective, I do not know. If you are asking me
from a Bible perspective, I would say that the Tree of Life, the forbidden tree, and all the other
trees in the garden are not symbolic of anything in my opinion.

 

If we are intent on a literal understanding - Adam and Eve had no knowledge or intelligence that could be use to differentiate any good from any evil.  This includes that to obey G-d is good or to listen to the serpent is evil - if the Bible is taken literally Adam and Eve would not have any ability to recognize G-d should be obeyed and the serpent rejected.  Many Christians argue that Adam and Eve should obey G-d - but a literal understanding of the Bible would indicate that until they tasted the fruit - they could not distinguish between good or evil or anything associated with good or evil - such as truth and a lie.  Assuming that the truth is good and that a lie is evil and that knowledge and intelligence is good and ignorance and foolishness is evil.  

So I will try a couple more questions.  #1. Can mortal (fallen) man know what is true without G-d's (the Holy Ghost) help?  If so is there a scripture that can be referenced?  #2.  Why did Jesus say that he used symbolism (parables)?

Thought - if Scripture is to be understood literally - We do not need G-d or his spirit to understand scripture.  Why then does the scripture say our thought are not G-d's thought - and that to understand G-d we must discern spiritually?  #3.  What is the difference between discerning empirical and discerning spiritually?

If we understand the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of something - Then we can realize that the story of Adam and Eve is necessary for G-d's Plan of Salvation.

 

The Traveler

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On 2/29/2020 at 11:07 PM, Traveler said:

If we are intent on a literal understanding - Adam and Eve had no knowledge or intelligence that could be use to differentiate any good from any evil.  This includes that to obey G-d is good or to listen to the serpent is evil - if the Bible is taken literally Adam and Eve would not have any ability to recognize G-d should be obeyed and the serpent rejected.  Many Christians argue that Adam and Eve should obey G-d - but a literal understanding of the Bible would indicate that until they tasted the fruit - they could not distinguish between good or evil or anything associated with good or evil - such as truth and a lie.  Assuming that the truth is good and that a lie is evil and that knowledge and intelligence is good and ignorance and foolishness is evil.  

So I will try a couple more questions.  #1. Can mortal (fallen) man know what is true without G-d's (the Holy Ghost) help?  If so is there a scripture that can be referenced?  #2.  Why did Jesus say that he used symbolism (parables)?

Thought - if Scripture is to be understood literally - We do not need G-d or his spirit to understand scripture.  Why then does the scripture say our thought are not G-d's thought - and that to understand G-d we must discern spiritually?  #3.  What is the difference between discerning empirical and discerning spiritually?

If we understand the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of something - Then we can realize that the story of Adam and Eve is necessary for G-d's Plan of Salvation.

 

The Traveler

I'm confused by your ideas about something being literal as opposed to something being symbolic.  You said 
the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of something.

Do you believe it was literal fruit from a literal tree?  If no, what does symbolic fruit represent to you?

thanks

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2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I'm confused by your ideas about something being literal as opposed to something being symbolic.  You said 
the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is symbolic of something.

Do you believe it was literal fruit from a literal tree?  If no, what does symbolic fruit represent to you?

thanks

The symbolic concept of fruit in the ancient world is hardly a new thing.  I believe the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is as follows.  The knowledge of Evil is the experience of death.  The knowledge of Good is the experience of the atonement of Christ and the resurrection.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 3/4/2020 at 9:40 PM, Traveler said:

The symbolic concept of fruit in the ancient world is hardly a new thing.  I believe the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is as follows.  The knowledge of Evil is the experience of death.  The knowledge of Good is the experience of the atonement of Christ and the resurrection.

 

The Traveler

Why did God not want them to eat from the forbidden tree and gain that knowledge?

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15 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Why did God not want them to eat from the forbidden tree and gain that knowledge?

Excellent question.  And with all excellent questions the answer is seldom intuitively obvious.  Indeed why would G-d not want Adam and Eve to understand the concept of what is good and be able to completely differentiate good from evil?  I believe the answer lies somewhat hidden in the symbolism (spirituality) and is confusing in literal (worldly) interpretations.  I believe G-d wants us to struggle with our thinking - even to seek understanding from Him.  - See James 1

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5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Please allow me to suggest some thoughts - G-d will not force the knowledge of good and evil on to us but to know of good and evil we must be willing to sacrifice - even our lives - as Jesus was willing to sacrifice his life.  G-d made a clear warning that to obtain such knowledge - it would bring about our own death and he could not force that on us but that we must decide for ourselves.

What are our thoughts?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 3/11/2020 at 12:30 PM, Traveler said:

Please allow me to suggest some thoughts - G-d will not force the knowledge of good and evil on to us but to know of good and evil we must be willing to sacrifice - even our lives - as Jesus was willing to sacrifice his life.  G-d made a clear warning that to obtain such knowledge - it would bring about our own death and he could not force that on us but that we must decide for ourselves.

What are our thoughts?

My thought is that I don't get the impression God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from that forbidden
tree but provided all the other trees they could eat from.

Is there a reason why you always use G-d instead of God?  🙂

 

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43 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

My thought is that I don't get the impression God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from that forbidden
tree but provided all the other trees they could eat from.

Is there a reason why you always use G-d instead of God?  🙂

 

I have thought that in the past because it seems like such a popular notion across so many religious thinkers - but then that would mean that Satan (The Serpent) out smarted G-d and got what he wanted instead of what G-d wanted.  Also note that Adam and Eve were beguiled (tricked) which means that what they thought was not really what they wanted either.  I cannot make any sense of such a tragic flaw and still believe G-d is really in control.

As for my use of "G-d" - there is more than one reason but it boils down to the internet and my personal effort to be mindful the the sacred title among everything else on the internet.

 

The Traveler

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On 2/25/2020 at 9:59 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm open to the possibility.  I believe that Adam and Eve were real, and there was a Fall...beyond that, what is literal and what is symbolic isn't totally clear to me.  I am convinced the symbolism IS important for us though, as evidenced by the times its repeated. 

I'm convinced that were supposed to read it on three levels.

  • Read it as if it were completely literal.
  • Read it as if it were completely figurative.
  • Read it as if it were the skeleton of a literal story with a lot of imagery, symbolism, and figurative storytelling to fill in that skeleton.

With each of these reads, we get different information and knowledge which I think is all true on some level.  These are like looking through only one eye.  It appears to be a compete picture.  But it isn't. 

It is then important to see it from a mixture of all three reads.  Like our eyes each see a slightly different picture, using both eyes allows us to see an image with additional benefits such as depth perception and its subsequent effects.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm convinced that were supposed to read it on three levels.

  • Read it as if it were completely literal.
  • Read it as if it were completely figurative.
  • Read it as if it were the skeleton of a literal story with a lot of imagery, symbolism, and figurative storytelling to fill in that skeleton.

With each of these reads, we get different information and knowledge which I think is all true on some level.  These are like looking through only one eye.  It appears to be a compete picture.  But it isn't. 

It is then important to see it from a mixture of all three reads.  Like our eyes each see a slightly different picture, using both eyes allows us to see an image with additional benefits such as depth perception and its subsequent effects.

I would add one more: read as though it was talking about us. For me that is where I gain my greatest understanding, when I ask "How does that apply to my life?"

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On 2/9/2020 at 8:33 AM, Moonbeast32 said:

Actually, they did have it. To a very specific degree that is.

God told them that to partake of every other fruit was good, and that the forbidden fruit is forbidden. Therefore they had knowledge of what action would be good, and which one was evil. It was agency to a very very singular instance; a tiny phosphorus matchhead to light an entire bonfire.

U assume that they knew it was evil. That would be incorrect. They only knew it would have harmful effects. It is not evil to touch a hot stove just like it was not evil to disobey God's command. Their innocence, not knowing good or evil, made it impossible them to understand it as evil.

They did, however, have a choice. Just like the hot stove, we know it will burn us, but if something of value fell on the hot stove we might accept the consequences to save that item. In doing so, we still get burned but didnt do anything evil.

So, having knowledge of good and evil is not necessary to make choices. I think the issue associated with this passage was the ability to reach our divine potential not just to have free agency. In the garden, Adam and Eve could not advance or reach their divine potential without this essential first element. We cannot be saved in ignorance. We must know good from evil or our choices, though they may have consequences, are irrelevant since the choice wasn't between good and evil. Just as Eve's choice wasnt between good and evil. Her choice was based on obtaining something that was more valuable such that she was willing to accept the consequences.

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