Question about Sherem

[Fether]

It is said that Sherem both denied that there would be a Christ, yet believed the scriptures.

How is this so? What is the modern day equivalent of this?

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

It is said that Sherem both denied that there would be a Christ, yet believed the scriptures.

How is this so? What is the modern day equivalent of this?

Possibilities:

1) He interpreted the scriptures differently.

2)  He lied about accepting the scriptures because he knew no Nephite would take him seriously if he openly denied them.  

3) He didn’t actually know what was in the Nephite scriptures (which is my personal favorite—when Jacob actually presents him with scriptural content, Sherem doesn’t engage; he just jumps to “show me a sign”.  It’s not like every Nephite had their own personal copy of the scriptures the way we do—let alone Sherem, who may have been a Lamanite, a Jaredite, or a member of some other indigenous group).

[JohnsonJones]

Today we have the Jewish people and the Jewish Faith.  We  have Islam.  We have other faiths and religions.

We know we have a Savior and that the Messiah came and fulfilled his mortal ministry and the atonement, but we also have many who do not believe this.

They interpret their scriptures in a different way than we do, even when they may have the same scriptures and same stories as we do. 

Some look for a Messiah to come, but others of them look for a different type of millennial arrival or may even believe in something different completely.

Sherem's case was different though, as he was purposefully trying to overthrow the doctrine of the Lord.  When it came to the end he stated

Quote

And he spake plainly unto them and denied the things which he had taught them, and confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the ministering of angels.

And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil.   And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

And he said: I fear lest I have committed the unpardonable sin, for I have lied unto God; for I believed the scriptures; and they truly testify of him.  And because I have thus lied unto God I greatly fear lest my case shall be awful; but I confess unto God.

This indicates that he knew the truth, that he knew what he was doing, but had fallen to temptation and sin. 

We have some similar today that know the gospel, have testimonies of it, and yet deny it.  They are not necessarily just of our religion, but of Christianity.  They find a sin that they love or desire try to find a justification for it.  They may even say that the scriptures support them, even as they turn away and deny the scriptures and Christianity.  We have a growing population that are ex-christians today that now claim to be atheist or lean atheistic agnostics.  Some of them are very well versed in the scriptures, but use it to try to convince people that Christianity is not true, or that our belief in our Lord and Savior is incorrect. 

In many ways, Sherem can be seen as a type and a Shadow of similar arguments and situations of our day (as many things in the Book of Mormon can be seen and used).

[Fether]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:32 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Today we have the Jewish people and the Jewish Faith.  We  have Islam.  We have other faiths and religions.

We know we have a Savior and that the Messiah came and fulfilled his mortal ministry and the atonement, but we also have many who do not believe this.

They interpret their scriptures in a different way than we do, even when they may have the same scriptures and same stories as we do. 

Some look for a Messiah to come, but others of them look for a different type of millennial arrival or may even believe in something different completely.

Sherem's case was different though, as he was purposefully trying to overthrow the doctrine of the Lord.  When it came to the end he stated

This indicates that he knew the truth, that he knew what he was doing, but had fallen to temptation and sin. 

We have some similar today that know the gospel, have testimonies of it, and yet deny it.  They are not necessarily just of our religion, but of Christianity.  They find a sin that they love or desire try to find a justification for it.  They may even say that the scriptures support them, even as they turn away and deny the scriptures and Christianity.  We have a growing population that are ex-christians today that now claim to be atheist or lean atheistic agnostics.  Some of them are very well versed in the scriptures, but use it to try to convince people that Christianity is not true, or that our belief in our Lord and Savior is incorrect. 

In many ways, Sherem can be seen as a type and a Shadow of similar arguments and situations of our day (as many things in the Book of Mormon can be seen and used).

Maybe you can help me with this. The Book of Mormon videos put out by the church seem to paint Sherem as a Jew who rejects the Christian idea of Christ. However, Christ hadn’t come yet so there wasn’t yet any conflict to be had on who Christ was.

was the name “Christ” not something the Jews used to refer to the messiah as? Was “Christ” only a term used by Christian’s after his coming and revealed to the Nephites? 

[Just_A_Guy]

IIRC, the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek around the 3rd-2nd century BC; and the translators chose to render “messiah” as “Christos”, literally meaning “the anointed one”.  Lehites (who separated themselves from Judah in the 6th century BC) probably wouldn’t have used the word “Christ”, “Christos”, or any of its cognates or derivatives.  (Yes, IIRC an angel tells Nephi the name of Jesus Christ; but I think it’s dodgy as to whether a 6th century BC angel speaking to a native Hebrew speaker is going to be telling Nephi the English derivative of a Greek name-title for someone who lived His life speaking Aramaic.)

Thus the  term is a historical anachronism in the Book of Mormon and its presence is meant for our benefit, so that we in the 19th/ 20th/ 21st centuries understand unambiguously that the subject of this discussion is Jesus of Nazareth even if the actual participants in the discussion didn’t understand their topic as clearly as we do.  

Edited February 13, 2022 by Just_A_Guy

[laronius]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:27 AM, Fether said:

What is the modern day equivalent of this?

I think anyone who professes a belief in the Bible, even in Christ himself and yet distorts the true meaning of what Christ taught and accomplished through the atonement falls, to one degree or another, in this category. With Christ now being a historical figure Satan's tactic has shifted from denying his existence to corrupting what he taught and did. 

But Sherem not only denied the Christ but he also denied the Holy Ghost. This to me is a very direct connection to much of modern Christianity and the cause of so much of the confusion that exists today.

[Still_Small_Voice]

22 hours ago, laronius said:

But Sherem not only denied the Christ but he also denied the Holy Ghost. This to me is a very direct connection to much of modern Christianity and the cause of so much of the confusion that exists today.

I have a more merciful view of Sherem.  Read about his final words in Jacob Chapter 7:

16 And it came to pass that he [Sherem] said unto the people: Gather together on the morrow, for I shall die; wherefore, I desire to speak unto the people before I shall die.

17 And it came to pass that on the morrow the multitude were gathered together; and he spake plainly unto them and denied the things which he had taught them, and confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the ministering of angels.

18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

19 And he said: I fear lest I have committed the unpardonable sin, for I have lied unto God; for I denied the Christ, and said that I believed the scriptures; and they truly testify of him. And because I have thus lied unto God I greatly fear lest my case shall be awful; but I confess unto God.

20 And it came to pass that when he had said these words he could say no more, and he gave up the ghost.

 

Why would Sherem wish to gather the people and tell them about the false doctrine and the truth if he was a son of perdition?  Compare his death to Korihor's in Alma chapter 30.  Korihor wished to speak to the people again after being struck dumb and deaf so he could teach false doctrines again after having been given a sign from the LORD. 

I do not believe Sherem was a son of perdition.  But he will receive his judgment and his kingdom according to the judgments of God in the future.

[laronius]

8 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

 

Why would Sherem wish to gather the people and tell them about the false doctrine and the truth if he was a son of perdition?  Compare his death to Korihor's in Alma chapter 30.  Korihor wished to speak to the people again after being struck dumb and deaf so he could teach false doctrines again after having been given a sign from the LORD. 

I do not believe Sherem was a son of perdition.  But he will receive his judgment and his kingdom according to the judgments of God in the future.

You misinterpreted what I meant. I was not saying Sherem was a son of perdition anymore than I was saying much of modern Christianity are sons of perdition. When I said he denied the Holy Ghost I simply meant we did not believe there was such a thing or if there was that it didn't impart revelation as we know it does. It almost sounds like he may have had that witness at one point but lost it through transgression. 

[Anddenex]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:27 AM, Fether said:

It is said that Sherem both denied that there would be a Christ, yet believed the scriptures.

How is this so? What is the modern day equivalent of this?

This, so to speak, is equivalent to the Jews when Christ lived among them. They believed in the scriptures, they taught the scriptures, and yet they couldn't recognize when the Savior walked among them.

We have modern day spiritualist who believe in all scriptures, or in anything that teaches a better way of living; however, although they believe in scriptures (truths they feel are important) they deny the existence of Christ as Lord and God. They accept Christ as a great teacher, and that is as far as it goes.

Deist so to speak could easily fall into this realm. They believe in a Supreme being. They believe the teachings that are taught in the scriptures, but do not believe in the deity of the scriptures themselves.