Might I go political/educational again? Truancy

[Backroads]

Since this forum tends to have intrigued thoughts on such issues...

By trade I am a teacher and a public one at that. I value education and learning, but I'm also rather eclectic on the matter: You do you. Private schools, homeschool, all degrees of unschooling, some alternative I have yet to see. That's great.

Some years ago in my state, a bill was floated around that never went anywhere and was so long ago it's of little particular importance these days. But it was the topic that came back to my thinking: decriminalizing truancy to the point that education was no longer functionally required by the state.

On one hand, I like to trust a majority of parents to still want to have their kids educated. Math and literacy skills to start their way towards life and career goals of the child's choosing. Skills to function in society. Liberal arts to start thinking about the world. Trade skills for practical application. Sure, not having to worry about truancy would likely open a lot of new paths for people.

Perhaps online teaching has simply revealed more problematic families, but the other hand has me worrying about the families that would happily just not bother with anything. I can't help but wonder if those kids upon adulthood would be a drain on their communities, or if that might destroy families if these people felt angry for being denied an education.

I am aware some states have a happy medium where homeschool is easily enough accepted as long as there is proof the kid is learning, but this is by no means universal.

So this all leaves me wondering, in the absence of the state worrying about education, just what would be the response of the immediate community?

[scottyg]

I personally have two neighbors who could care less about truancy. They would be just fine having their kids on a screen all day, and mostly use school as a form of daycare. If the truancy policies were changed/removed I would guarantee that they would be late to school every day missing at least their first subject each day. But, most parents don't want to give up sending away their young'uns for a few hours.

One of those two has children who vocally oppose doing anything outside of screen time. When they get older their parents could very well give up the fight, and just let them stay home to play minecraft, fortnite, scroll social media, etc... Our generation seems to only have helicopter parents and missing parents; very few in the middle, and as a result the rising generation isn't learning any applicable life skills to contribute to society.

(the conspiracy theorist in me says this upcoming lack of independence is leading to dependence on the state)

[Backroads]

36 minutes ago, scottyg said:

But, most parents don't want to give up sending away their young'uns for a few hours.

This is what I find most fascinating about the uninvolved families in online school. They're obviously not using the schools as daycare (at least one parent or relative is home). It's like they don't actually care.

[scottyg]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

This is what I find most fascinating about the uninvolved families in online school. They're obviously not using the schools as daycare (at least one parent or relative is home). It's like they don't actually care.

They use the screen as "daycare". Sadly yes, many of them do not care to the degree they ought to. Many also do not even think about caring...they wash their hands and want the school to do everything. It is sad how many parents don't do small and simple things like read with their kids.

Whether in 1st grade or college, education is not the responsibility of the teachers...but the student (and parents of young kids).

[mikbone]

My wife and I have 44 years of formal education between us.  She skipped so much class and I should have skipped much more.  Sports kept me in school.

We homeschool.  Go on vacation whenever we want, and take our kids on outings whenever my schedule permits.  Zero parent teacher nonsense.

I don’t think school attendance is the issue.  I do worry about work ethic, the ability to communicate / reason / solve problems.

Unfortunately, our legal system and schoolboards seem too focused on the least common denominator instead of the benefit of our children.

If you read books on a routine basis you will become knowledgeable.  Learn math to solve problems.  

Our children read, whatever they are interested in.  Around 12-14 they start taking college courses online.  When their friends are graduating from HS, they already have 30 hours of college credit under their belt and are ready to transfer into BYU.  

The amount of people in our society who rarely if ever have had an original thought astounds me.  

We also have a horrible problem with people who feel entitled to be a drain on society.  

Conversation with a patient last week (motorcycle accident open fracture status post intra-medullary nailing)…

Him:  Hey doc I need a note listing my disability.

Me:  Your fracture is healed.  You are no longer have any disability.

Him:  But my foot still swells sometimes if I work too much.

Me:   What kind of work do you do.

Him:  None, I’m permanently disabled.

Me:  Then why do you need a work note?

Him:  Well, its actually to get out of court ordered community service.

Me:  Denied.

Edited January 9, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

10 hours ago, Backroads said:

Some years ago in my state, a bill was floated around that never went anywhere and was so long ago it's of little particular importance these days. But it was the topic that came back to my thinking: decriminalizing truancy to the point that education was no longer functionally required by the state.

So this all leaves me wondering, in the absence of the state worrying about education, just what would be the response of the immediate community?

What an absolute horrorshow of an idea.  Without some sort of basic things taught to our kids, I'm thinking civics and US history, we won't have a cohesive nation.  Diversity and all that is good, but without a unified voice teaching our kids that our democratic institutions (spelled out in a unifying constitution) are good and should be preserved, then, well, I guess I'll have to accelerate my reading of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire to find out what happens next.

I mean, dang, even the folks who teach our wokest most progressive folks, the people who believe US land was stolen and gender is a spectrum apart from biology, support our democratic institutions.

The immediate community's response should be the peaceful and legal removal of whoever is floating such ideas, replacing them with serious educators. 

I mean even Colorado, one of the easier states in which to homeschool, gives a common-sense mandate:
172 days of instruction, averaging four hours per day, in the United States Constitution, reading, writing, speaking, math, history, civics, literature, and science.

[Traveler]

It is interesting to me that the more the federal government has gotten involved (taken away the control and power of parents and local communities) the more public education has failed to educate our youth.  In my youth home schooling and private education were for problem kids.  On the other hand, public education in the USA was considered the best education in the world and states competed against each other for being the best.  Several years ago I spent some time as a consulting engineer in Asia.  In talking to the engineers there, I learned that it use to be that the top students in Asia went to the USA to be educated.  But things had changed and only the students that could not make it in Asian colleges came to the USA now.

I do not mean to be mean @Backroads but teachers today in the US public schools are not putting out the world’s best products and I do not believe it is there fault nor are they expected to.

 

The Traveler

[Backroads]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is interesting to me that the more the federal government has gotten involved (taken away the control and power of parents and local communities) the more public education has failed to educate our youth.  In my youth home schooling and private education were for problem kids.  On the other hand, public education in the USA was considered the best education in the world and states competed against each other for being the best.  Several years ago I spent some time as a consulting engineer in Asia.  In talking to the engineers there, I learned that it use to be that the top students in Asia went to the USA to be educated.  But things had changed and only the students that could not make it in Asian colleges came to the USA now.

I do not mean to be mean @Backroads but teachers today in the US public schools are not putting out the world’s best products and I do not believe it is there fault nor are they expected to.

 

The Traveler

I think getting back to some good competition might be the way to go. Truly make it the community's responsibility.

The noble goal of reaching all students hasn't done so much.

[Backroads]

On 1/8/2023 at 5:48 PM, mikbone said:

My wife and I have 44 years of formal education between us.  She skipped so much class and I should have skipped much more.  Sports kept me in school.

We homeschool.  Go on vacation whenever we want, and take our kids on outings whenever my schedule permits.  Zero parent teacher nonsense.

I don’t think school attendance is the issue.  I do worry about work ethic, the ability to communicate / reason / solve problems.

Unfortunately, our legal system and schoolboards seem too focused on the least common denominator instead of the benefit of our children.

If you read books on a routine basis you will become knowledgeable.  Learn math to solve problems.  

Our children read, whatever they are interested in.  Around 12-14 they start taking college courses online.  When their friends are graduating from HS, they already have 30 hours of college credit under their belt and are ready to transfer into BYU.  

The amount of people in our society who rarely if ever have had an original thought astounds me.  

We also have a horrible problem with people who feel entitled to be a drain on society.  

Conversation with a patient last week (motorcycle accident open fracture status post intra-medullary nailing)…

Him:  Hey doc I need a note listing my disability.

Me:  Your fracture is healed.  You are no longer have any disability.

Him:  But my foot still swells sometimes if I work too much.

Me:   What kind of work do you do.

Him:  None, I’m permanently disabled.

Me:  Then why do you need a work note?

Him:  Well, its actually to get out of court ordered community service.

Me:  Denied.

So while I respect homeschooling and everything, it seems to be extremely independent. How would homeschoolers respond to people who aren't able to homeschool if we did drop truancy laws? (Probably an unfair judgment, but most homeschoolers I know are quite wealthy)

[mikbone]

[mikbone]

Our society is hosed.  I don’t spend time in schools but I can easily imagine what the main problems are.

In our hospitals, nurses are overwhelmed with paperwork, compliance and horrible patients that are either ‘entitled’, on illicit drugs, or mentally ill.  

Nurses used to care for patients not documentation.  I have to write orders for patients to be bathed… Sometimes I am amazed that simple first aid and general cleanliness are not standard of care.  

I’m sure teachers are frustrated with documentation, plans, meetings, and activities that don’t give students any benefits.    

Teachers with tenure that no longer care. 

Teachers that spend the majority of their time babysitting or being a prison guard.

Teaching garbage material.  Social indoctrination.  Sex Education.  Sentence diagraming.  New math.  Terrible textbooks.  Outdated material.  

Could go on and on…

Edited January 10, 2023 by mikbone

[scottyg]

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

In our hospitals, nurses are overwhelmed with paperwork, compliance and horrible patients that are either ‘entitled’, on illicit drugs, or mentally ill.  

Nurses used to care for patients not documentation.  I have to write orders for patients to be bathed… Sometimes I am amazed that simple first aid and general cleanliness are not standard of care.  

I'm a nurse, and decided to get my MBA so I could leave the acute care setting because of all of this...and more. I wasn't able to do my job. A once great healthcare organization lost their way due to greed and outside social pressures, and decided it was better to look good on the outside than to do good on the inside.

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m sure teachers are frustrated with documentation, plans, meetings, and activities that don’t give students any benefits.    

Teachers with tenure that no longer care. 

Teachers that spend the majority of their time babysitting or being a prison guard.

Teaching garbage material.  Social indoctrination.  Sex Education.  Sentence diagraming.  New math.  Terrible textbooks.  Outdated material.  

Could go on and on…

Our current Primary president is a teacher, and left her job about 4 years ago due to all of this...and more. She now teaches her 5 kids at home, and according to her, the entire family has had their lives improved.

Edited January 10, 2023 by scottyg
spelling

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

Not only is being a science nerd unpopular in education - it is not all that popular with religious folks as well.

 

The Traveler

[Backroads]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, scottyg said:

Our current Primary president is a teacher, and left her job about 4 years ago due to all of this...and more. She now teaches her 5 kids at home, and according to her, the entire family has had their lives improved.

When I went virtual, it was such a load off my shoulders from what truly did feel like babysitting. Virtual teaching has its own challenges (now I feel like I'm babysitting adults on occasion), and I feel a lot happier.

I think we've sunk so low into the need for schools to handle everything I don't think society can worm its way back out.

Elsewhere there was a discussion about the possible benefits of 4-day school weeks. Some of those perks were more planning/prep time for teachers (which has evidence in its favor). Of course, someone came screaming about the people who couldn't care for their children on that fifth day. You seem like a jerk if you say "not my problem, the local economy and community will figure it out". 

[NeuroTypical]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, scottyg said:

Our current Primary president is a teacher, and left her job about 4 years ago due to all of this...and more. She now teaches her 5 kids at home, and according to her, the entire family has had their lives improved.

When we were homeschooling across the 2010's, I lost count at all the mommies we encountered with similar stories.  Some had become school teachers to earn an income and learn how to homeschool their kids.  Others never considered homeschooling until the schools got bad enough they pulled their kids, sometimes themselves.

At one homeschool co-op, my kiddos learned science from a molecular biologist with a PhD, who had some sort of biological switch flip in her, and she totally vacated academia and the business world to be a regular old stay at home homeschooling mom.  She was an interesting person.

Edited January 11, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Grunt]

We're making some family decisions and possibly changes.  I'm heavily involved in the school district and currently involved in a contentious school board battle.   The side pushing for social education is louder and shouting out those that are concerned with academics.  I'm unsure if this is due to social learning being the main concern of the majority, or if families who are focused on academics just stay in the shadows to avoid the very vocal and contentious debates.  

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

We're making some family decisions and possibly changes.  I'm heavily involved in the school district and currently involved in a contentious school board battle.   The side pushing for social education is louder and shouting out those that are concerned with academics.  I'm unsure if this is due to social learning being the main concern of the majority, or if families who are focused on academics just stay in the shadows to avoid the very vocal and contentious debates.  

I think the high focus on social education is truly a sign of breakdown of family and community and hopes of putting all this on someone else. I'll be frank: I've even seen this from conservative families, just not focused on the more "woke" stuff. They're simply under the impression they don't have to handle this and that and their taxes will handle it.

It leads to a huge argument of what's okay and what's not and further breakdown

 

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

The side pushing for social education is louder and shouting out those that are concerned with academics.

What is social education?  

From wikipedia:  “In the United States education system (and other countries), social studies is the integrated study of multiple fields of social science and the humanities, including history, culture, geography, and political science.”

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

What is social education?  

From wikipedia:  “In the United States education system (and other countries), social studies is the integrated study of multiple fields of social science and the humanities, including history, culture, geography, and political science.”

What is it officially?  Who knows.  What did I mean in my usage?   Focus on social issues, particularly gender, systemic racism, culture, etc.