SETI, Extraterrestrials, UFO’s and G-d (Devine beings)

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

The first principle of the gospel is Faith not Science or even common sense.

Although all things testify of God.  Those without faith will just come up with a theory as to why ‘x’ exists.  Whereas those who have faith will see the hand of God.

If there ever comes a time when science does prove that God exists (when the city of Zion returns, 2nd coming) it will be too late…  

Your statement is missing a most important point.  The first principle of the Gospel is faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ.  Christ is the source of all truth.  This would suggest that there is no difference between true science and true religion.  That the source of all truth is Christ be it religion or science.  There is no purpose or reason to compartmentalize science from religion.

I have found for myself that faith in Christ is an engine for discovery in all things including science.  If it is true that G-d exist, it is as true in science as in religion and the means of knowing what is true is the same in science as in religion.

Strange as it may seem I have personally had more success proving the one true G-d among comrades of science than those the profess religion.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

If there was no God, it would be a matter of origin of radio waves (electromagnetic radiation) and the power output of the source.  Although we can see light that is billions of years old that has traveled vast distances.  The sources of that light are amazingly powerful.  

Pulsars are easy to find even in other galaxies.  But if an Earth like civilization had existed in the Andromeda galaxy 2.537 Billion years ago, we couldn’t detect their transmissions.  Just too feint.  Too far away.  Totally wiped out by the background noise.

https://theconversation.com/weve-used-a-new-technique-to-discover-the-brightest-radio-pulsar-outside-our-own-galaxy-180508

But there is a God.  And I’m pretty sure that He is keeping us isolated.  

Actually, pulsars are not so easy to find unless we are within the ark of their polar emissions.  Also, even faint emissions are amplified by similar frequency background noise that can act as carrier waves.  Unlike the visual and higher spectrums of light – radio waves are at the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum (much different than the gamma rays of pulsars) and we can listen as well on earth as with a space receiver.

Though radio astronomy is relatively a new science it is becoming increasingly more important in exploring the universe – especially in looking for other intelligent civilizations.

 

The Traveler

[pam]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, NeuroTypical said:

p.s. @pam, do you know how I can get rid of that little spaceshippy icon thing on my icon?  You're blowin' my cover.

 

I figured it out.  They are gone.  

[Jamie123]

On 4/25/2023 at 10:50 PM, Traveler said:

Also, even faint emissions are amplified by similar frequency background noise that can act as carrier waves.

Interesting - can you elaborate on this statement, or cite a reference?

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting - can you elaborate on this statement, or cite a reference?

Do you understand what a carrier wave is?  And how it can amplify a reading?

Perhaps I should give another example.  Is atmosphere carbon responsible for global warming?  How can atmosphere carbon be responsible for global warming if atmospheric carbon is less than 2% of the total greenhouse gases in the atmosphere?  Shouldn’t we be looking at what is causing 98% of the greenhouse gases?  Hint – this could also be known as the butterfly effect.  All we need to determine is a mean deviation.

 

The Traveler

[Jamie123]

9 hours ago, Traveler said:

Do you understand what a carrier wave is?

Yes I do. I used to teach a course on Broadcast Communications to undergraduates. This was a long time ago, but i do remember well enough what a carrier wave is. It is a radio-frequency oscillation which is modulated by lower frequency "informational" signal in order to "carry" the latter over a radio channel. Maybe you mean something different by the term.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm genuinely interested in how noise can act as a "carrier wave" and how this can "amplify". I have Googled around but found nothing so far.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:36 PM, Traveler said:

How can atmosphere carbon be responsible for global warming if atmospheric carbon is less than 2% of the total greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? 

I'm rather suspicious of that figure. The closest I can get it to is 3.5% - but that's if we only consider elemental carbon, and include water vapour as a greenhouse gas. Water vapour of course depends on humidity, which varies, so i daresay under some circumstances you are technically correct. But if we "did something about" water vapour, there'd be no more rain!

As far as human greenhouse emissions go, CO2 amounts for 76%, methane coming in second at 16%.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 4/20/2023 at 10:32 AM, Still_Small_Voice said:

I have heard other intelligent people say that the world wide Internet is now like a modern day Tower of Babel.  It says in Genesis chapter 11:  "... nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." 

Is this the point that we have reached now in our societies?  We know that the natural man is an enemy to God and is carnal, sensual and devilish.  Mankind is able now to do many things and almost nothing is being restrained from the wicked in pursuing the imaginations of their hearts.

Just take a look at what the majority of the internet is used for, narcissistic pleasures; we we can see that real, creative progress is being stagnated in a pool of carnality. 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 4/20/2023 at 10:39 AM, mikbone said:

God is a Kardeshev VI being.

https://kardashev.fandom.com/wiki/Type_VI

 

1- Planet

2- Star

3- Galaxy

4- Universe

5- Multi-verse

6- All creation, All Eternity

I think God the Father is beyond a number 6, whatever that may be. He does not have a limit to what he controls.

It is almost amusing to have embryonic beings such as us, trying to put any limits on God. It is like a paramecium saying they understand us.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:45 PM, mikbone said:

There is only one Drake equation.  That is the one I was describing.  Although there have been modifications (not approved by Drake).

Still a very simple equation.  The inherent problem is that the equation does not take into account the possibility of deity, or interference from a more technically advanced civilization.

The following is an interactive drake equation calculator.  Knock yourself out.

https://www.spacecentre.nz/resources/tools/drake-equation-calculator.html

The following image is probably even more instructive.  The blue dot in the inset bottom right is how far Earth Radio transmission signals have traveled since we became intelligent enough to make them.

Not very far…

Because the Milky Way diameter is 100,000 light years across.  If there was one intelligent species halfway across the Milky way, it would take 50,000 years for our message to reach them and another 50,000 years for the return response.  

Space is vast.  And ain’t nobody got the patience for this type of conversation.

FTL is the only solution to this problem. Even if we could leave, however, I don't think we could ever find out way back, we would be lost, to wander the stars forever, never finding our way home again.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I do think our destiny is to eventually spread out though. Here is a little video I put together a few years ago.

 

[mikbone]

30 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

FTL is the only solution to this problem. Even if we could leave, however, I don't think we could ever find out way back, we would be lost, to wander the stars forever, never finding our way home again.

God probably has figured out FTL travel.  Not sure how He did it.  Faster than light information transfer will come first though.  (I like Dune’s folding space more than Spaceballs Ludicrous speed)

Not sure why you think we will get lost in space.  By the time we figure out how to travel to exoplanets we will have figured out how to map the Milky Way.

Moses 1:37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

Edited May 1, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:10 PM, Jamie123 said:

Yes I do. I used to teach a course on Broadcast Communications to undergraduates. This was a long time ago, but i do remember well enough what a carrier wave is. It is a radio-frequency oscillation which is modulated by lower frequency "informational" signal in order to "carry" the latter over a radio channel. Maybe you mean something different by the term.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm genuinely interested in how noise can act as a "carrier wave" and how this can "amplify". I have Googled around but found nothing so far.

Thanks for your question – I will attempt to answer as best as I can.

The carrier concept is utilized with several kinds of research.  I will attempt to explain.  In essence all energy transmissions are in the form or waves.  When there are multiple waves sources (plural sources of energy) the waves will interfere with each other, this is called interference (not a surprise).  The interference can and will be both constructive and destructive resulting in peek and valley values in the transmissions.  Background radiation is in essence noise, and that noise is the same in every direction we look.  The primary wave is called a carrier wave because it will extend the range of secondary waves.

Radio waves are at the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum.   The fortunate aspect of radio waves are that since they are at the lowest end of the spectrum – radio waves penetrate better than any other waves.  This means that the atmosphere of earth is a natural filter of everything else.  And we do not have to put radio sensors into outer space (aka James Webb telescope).  We can set up the best sensitive radio telescopes on the surface of earth.  Usually, these radio sensors are set up in very sensitive global arrays.  Using this method, we can search the sky looking for minute fluctuations in amplitudes (both peak and valley).  We can even determine the directions of the source and concentrate on any possible source.

The whole concept of radio astronomy is a relative new science that has occurred during my lifetime.  What we have learned is that radio astronomy provides a wealth of information about our universe that cannot be obtained by any other means.  This is because all matter (stuff) that we know about emits radio waves.  This means we are studying source energy rather than reflected energy of another source.

Over decades there have been no non-natural consistent sources of radio waves discovered.  Some have argued that we have only been broadcasting radio waves on earth for a short time – this is not exactly accurate.  Mankind has been involved in activities for thousands of years that produce unique radio energy transmissions.   Some scientists believe that it is possible to determine if life as we know it exists on exoplanets, we are discovering by carefully analyzing radio emissions.  What has been determined is that, as of yet, there is no other planet that has been discovered that is like our earth.  Regardless, if someone is religious or not – this is a very sobering issue.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm rather suspicious of that figure. The closest I can get it to is 3.5% - but that's if we only consider elemental carbon, and include water vapour as a greenhouse gas. Water vapour of course depends on humidity, which varies, so i daresay under some circumstances you are technically correct. But if we "did something about" water vapour, there'd be no more rain!

As far as human greenhouse emissions go, CO2 amounts for 76%, methane coming in second at 16%.

Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas in earth’s atmosphere.   Water is also a critical element for life.  Two other elements in our atmosphere are also critical.  They are carbon and oxygen.   Plants require carbon and animals require oxygen.  The carbon molecule plants use is the exact same molecule that is the greenhouse gas.  Deforesting our planet is far more dangerous than the use of carbon molecules for an energy source.  Carbon monoxide is the primary carbon molecule (I believe over 90%) given off by fossil fuels and is not a greenhouse gas but is converted to a greenhouse gas with oxygen given off by plants – which in return can be used by plants.  Every living animal breaths out greenhouse gas.  Some worry about cattle as a source of methane (also a greenhouse gas) thinking we should not have or eat cattle.  If cattle were not eating grass – the decaying uneaten grass would still give off the same amount of methane.

Some interesting facts about global warming.  There have been eras when the earth has been over 3 degrees warmer than it is currently and it did not end all life.  Currently, the claim is that 2 degrees warmer will end life???  It is also interesting that all the planets of our solar system are experiencing warming and only earth has human use of fossil fuels.  Currently the sun is experiencing a warming phrase.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

God probably has figured out FTL travel.  Not sure how He did it.  Faster than light information transfer will come first though.  (I like Dune’s folding space more than Spaceballs Ludicrous speed)

Not sure why you think we will get lost in space.  By the time we figure out how to travel to exoplanets we will have figured out how to map the Milky Way.

Moses 1:37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

One possible means of FTL is dimensional shifting but for whatever reason we do not hear about this even in science fiction.  Though it is similar to bending space there are fundamental differences.  The problem here is that we just do not know that much about dimensions or how they can interact.  I wrote a paper in college about quantum physics - that the quantum aspect is controlled by dimensions (similar to string theory).  That coupled quantum particles are expressing dimensional shifting.   I also devised a means to test my theory using an electron accelerator and field inflections.   But life changed and I was never given funding to experiment, and other things became important to me.  I still think quantum physics has major problem with the theory – and is why there is no (and no possibility for) unified field theory.

 

The Traveler

[Jamie123]

On 5/1/2023 at 5:35 PM, Traveler said:

In essence all energy transmissions are in the form or waves.  When there are multiple waves sources (plural sources of energy) the waves will interfere with each other, this is called interference (not a surprise).  The interference can and will be both constructive and destructive resulting in peek and valley values in the transmissions

No problem so far - this is pretty basic stuff. It's why we see the bright fringes in the double slit experiment.

On 5/1/2023 at 5:35 PM, Traveler said:

Background radiation is in essence noise, and that noise is the same in every direction we look.

If you're talking about cosmic background radiation then yes, approximately. It does vary slightly, but so very slightly that it's only quite recently that we've detected it.

On 5/1/2023 at 5:35 PM, Traveler said:

The primary wave is called a carrier wave because it will extend the range of secondary waves.

Are you suggesting that the alien transmissions are somehow modulating the background waves through constructive and destructive interference, and that is how the latter are acting as carrier waves?

In radio communication modulation is achieved by a process called "mixing" (sometimes called "heterodyning") whereby two oscillations are multiplied together, such that the lower frequency appears as "side bands" on each side of higher frequency "carrier" wave. (Classylady - or any of the other radio hams who post here - could doubtless tell you more about this.) But mixing with a carrier wave does not "amplify" the signal. It merely shifts it to a desired frequency band for transmission. Amplification is provided by transistor circuits at the receiver.

On 5/1/2023 at 5:35 PM, Traveler said:

Radio waves are at the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum.   The fortunate aspect of radio waves are that since they are at the lowest end of the spectrum – radio waves penetrate better than any other waves.  This means that the atmosphere of earth is a natural filter of everything else. 

I wouldn't say "everything else". After all we can see the sun, moon and stars, whose light has much higher frequencies. However, radio waves between about 1cm and 10m wavelength pass through our atmosphere unhindered.

On 5/1/2023 at 5:35 PM, Traveler said:

We can even determine the directions of the source and concentrate on any possible source.

This is the main reason why radio telescopes are big. To be directional, a receiving antenna aperture needs to be significantly greater than the largest received wavelengths. (Well, that and the fact that they need to scoop up as much energy from a transmissions that they can).

I've no objection to most of what you say, but your mention of interference still doesn't help me understand how noise acts as a carrier wave - which is really what I was asking about. But thanks anyway.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Jamie123
Corrected some of the information about atmospheric opacity.

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

Carbon monoxide is the primary carbon molecule (I believe over 90%) given off by fossil fuels and is not a greenhouse gas but is converted to a greenhouse gas with oxygen given off by plants – which in return can be used by plants.

Carbon monoxide is not a stable molecule anyway, as carbon has a valency of 4 and oxygen has a valency of 2. It only needs another oxygen atom complete all the bonds and become carbon dioxide.