Being humble and not being proud

[laronius]

Alma 5: 27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

In the context of these verses is Alma simply being repetitive to emphasize the importance of being humble or is he speaking of different things? I have always just assumed he was saying the same thing but using opposing terminology. But in a talk I heard recently it was said that we shouldn't just assume we already know the complete meaning of God's word and to continually seek additional insight. So that is what I'm doing.

[zil2]

I assume he's practicing good public speaking and teaching techniques, but I could be wrong.  "Sufficiently humble" is interesting.  Does that mean 99% humble is ok?  But "stripped of pride" suggests that the remaining 1% cannot be pride.  Not sure what else it would be, but it clearly shouldn't be pride.

Worth pondering and prayer, though perhaps academic until one accomplishes 99% humility.  (Not to be confused with 99% humidity, which is the depths of hell.)

[Carborendum]

What is pride?

Quote

Unreasonable self-esteem

"Self-esteem" in its absolute form means what value we attribute to ourselves.

In scriptures, "pride" can be said to mean any value we believe we have in-and-of-ourselves, apart from the Lord.  Humility, then, comes from acknowledging that any value we have is because of our connection to, relationship with, and dependence on God.  We are nothing without Him.

PRIDE

Once we say that we are doing anything on our own without giving credit to the Lord, that is pride.
Once we say that we know that we're being "righteous enough", that is pride.
Once we say that we know what is right and wrong better than the Lord, that is pride.

HUMILITY

Any good we do, it is because God has given us the strength to do so (Mosiah 2:21).  That is humility.
When we understand that we are nothing (Mosiah 4:5) before God, that is humility.
By putting off the natural man and submitting (Mosiah 3:9) ourselves and our will completely to the Lord we are giving ourselves to humility.

We recognize that some people have a lot of talent and ability.  And they may be born with such abilities, some may have been developed through much effort.  But as long as such individuals readily give credit to the Lord for giving them such abilities, they have a credible claim to humility.

[Vort]

"Proud" literally means sticking up above the common surface. Carpenters and machinists talk about a surface being "proud", often with the meaning that the surface needs to be planed or sanded or ground down until it is level with the rest of the common surface. The etymology apparently derives from the Latin prefix pro-, meaning before or in front of, and the common Latin verb esse "to be". Interestingly, it seems that the recent etymological ancestors of the word "proud" referred to putting oneself above others, so the way we commonly use the word "proud" is the primary meaning, not a figurative meaning.

"Humble", from the Latin humilis, literally means "near to the ground". The idea of "being humble" thus evokes the imagery of kneeling or prostrating oneself so as to be on or near the ground, beneath (and subject to) whomever is standing over you.

I find it meaningful that the scriptures never, not one time, advise us to be proud, but always advise us instead to be humble. I think the self-esteem movement that has been all the rage in the US and other western countries since at least the 1970s is at best a sad misunderstanding of healthy attitudes and at worst a hellish lie foisted on society at large.

[laronius]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

I assume he's practicing good public speaking and teaching techniques, but I could be wrong.  "Sufficiently humble" is interesting.  Does that mean 99% humble is ok?  But "stripped of pride" suggests that the remaining 1% cannot be pride.  Not sure what else it would be, but it clearly shouldn't be pride.

Worth pondering and prayer, though perhaps academic until one accomplishes 99% humility.  (Not to be confused with 99% humidity, which is the depths of hell.)

That word "sufficiently" caught my attention too. Clearly the Lord does not expect perfection from us before we can access the atonement so there must be some level of humility and repentance required before He grants his grace so perhaps that is what Alma is referring to.

But like you said, that statement on pride seems to imply that still ultimately is not good enough. Perhaps it's a progressive thing, step one and then step two.