Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear.

[mikbone]

After pondering on the Gender... thread (thanks @JohnsonJones), I came to a kind of awakening.

Gender dysmorphia is found within the scriptures. 

Eunuchs are a form of extreme abuse and mutilation.

Women that are barren, are always described with terms like reproach or shame.

The following images are from Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrine of Salvation volume 2, p 287-288

In every one of these situations, gender dysmorphia is an extreme curse, mutilation, or punishment. Lucifer recognizes this and has flipped the script, like he always does, and has managed to convince many of our brothers and sisters that gender dysmorphia is a good thing and should be desired, protected, and praised.

It's a sign of the times. 

I guess my point is this.  Sometimes it feels like we are fighting with our bretheren who have been damaged by Satan instead of fighting directly with the adversary. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Sometimes it feels like we are fighting with our bretheren who have been damaged by Satan instead of fighting directly with the adversary. 

I've tried hard to find various alphabet folks to meet and get to know a bit.  Handful of Ls Gs and Bs, a couple of Ts.  (The Qs I've met are more Q because of ideology than anything specific about their sex or gender.)   I have learned they are human like me.  They want to be loved and wanted like me.  They want more of the good things and less of the bad things like me.   There are some pretty foundational differences in beliefs and understandings of how humans and the world work, but I can see the light of Christ shining in them as they try to figure out what "good" is, so they can do more of it.

I've had an anarchist buddy since middle school.  I always figured if it came to picking sides and going to war, we'd end up trying to kill each other.  But that's no reason not to be friends (or at least online Facebook arguing buddies.)

[prisonchaplain]

A group of same-sex attracted Christian men came to Dr. Throckmorton (professor of Psychology at Grove City College) and asked that he facilitate their group. Their desire was to live celibate lives because they believed scripture did not allow them to live out their desires. He agreed and supported these men with psychology and Bible studies. Eventually he proposed a Sexual Identity Framework to APA and was approved. The head of the APA committee responded to criticism by saying, "It's amazing to many of us, but for some people who they worship is more important than who they bed."

All that to say that we are never wrong when we lovingly stick to what scripture says. 

[JohnsonJones]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

After pondering on the Gender... thread (thanks @JohnsonJones), I came to a kind of awakening.

Gender dysmorphia is found within the scriptures. 

Eunuchs are a form of extreme abuse and mutilation.

Women that are barren, are always described with terms like reproach or shame.

The following images are from Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrine of Salvation volume 2, p 287-288

In every one of these situations, gender dysmorphia is an extreme curse, mutilation, or punishment. Lucifer recognizes this and has flipped the script, like he always does, and has managed to convince many of our brothers and sisters that gender dysmorphia is a good thing and should be desired, protected, and praised.

It's a sign of the times. 

I guess my point is this.  Sometimes it feels like we are fighting with our bretheren who have been damaged by Satan instead of fighting directly with the adversary. 

 

One of the entities in the world that probably knows the scriptures the best is probably the Adversary.  He has his servants just like the Lord has his.  Many are probably unwitting servants of the adversary but they are well trained. 

I THINK (so, this is just my thinking) that many of the things that afflict our brothers and sister at times in the LGBTQ community occur because they give into their indulgences of certain things.  They, of course, do not see it as an affliction, but as being able to be themselves. 

We all have temptation in life.  Some of those deal with lusts of various kinds.  By keeping ourselves within the confines of that the Lord sets we resist falling into making these things focal points for our lives.  However, in many of these groups, when they fall into these temptations they make it large part of their identity. 

They are now told it is okay to let these things become a focal point of their lives. 

It's not just LGBTQ individuals though.  Among the university students, immorality and disregarding the Law of Chastity is prevalent.  Many of these students are religious and claim to be Christian, but they find ways to support their immoral behavior via their various religions by how they interpret things and how they justify it by their interpretations of doctrine.  I find it heartbreaking, but it is beyond my purview as professor to do much or anything regarding it, or even saying anything to them about it. 

We live in a time of great immorality and wickedness among the people of the Western (and Northern) Hemispheres today.  I absolutely agree the adversary has flipped the script in many ways.  What is good is evil and what is evil is good in today's society in many ways. 

Great quotes by the way.  I love using Doctrines of Salvation in my reading (among other books). 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Didn’t JFS-II also suggest that self-inflicted wounds (ie tattoos, piercings, wounds by suicide) don’t heal—or at least, leave scars— in the resurrection?  That sounds vaguely familiar.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Didn’t JFS-II also suggest that self-inflicted wounds (ie tattoos, piercings, wounds by suicide) don’t heal—or at least, leave scars— in the resurrection?  That sounds vaguely familiar.

I’m not familiar with that.  Obviously Jesus Christ retained his crucifixion scars though…

The JFS quote above does seem to clash with “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

I give considerable more weight to an official document signed by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve than a single paragraph found in a three volume set written by a single author. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by mikbone

[JohnsonJones]

6 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Didn’t JFS-II also suggest that self-inflicted wounds (ie tattoos, piercings, wounds by suicide) don’t heal—or at least, leave scars— in the resurrection?  That sounds vaguely familiar.

It depends on what they were and how.  Wounds by suicide haven't been addressed really, nor were piercings.  The indications I got were that these types of things would be healed most likely.

On the otherhand, Tattoos WERE highly discouraged. 

I believe that Joseph Fielding Smith had a nebulous quote that is sometimes used that some use to imply that tattoos and other imperfections may remain when resurrected, but that same quote also states that these will, in their due time, be healed and we will actually have perfected bodies in the Resurrection.  If only reading part of it, the implication may be found, but the whole statement actually seems to state the exact opposite.

President Kimball also has a statement that has been used where he states that non-self inflicted wounds and injuries will be healed.  The implication here is that it may be that self-inflicted things might remain in the eternities.  I do not think he had in mind for one second that this would extend to transgendered individuals changing their Sex, but it could be used by such individuals to say that such changes that they make are thus ordained and will remain with them through the eternities because they made the decision to change it themselves and thus it is "self-inflicted."

This also leaves a very large grey area regarding those who had or got these things and then repented of such things. 

Another common idea was that as we have the same bodies (or in theory) when we are resurrected, many of the same scars or injuries may remain upon us for a time, but the resurrected body, being perfected, will eventually heal and all these things will be removed so that we have perfect bodies through the eternities. 

A quick look on current guidance on Tattoos discovered these items (a quick search on google).

Tattooing

Quote

Our bodies are a gift from God, a blessing we received because we were righteous in the premortal life (see Abraham 3:26). The scriptures compare the body to a temple of God (see 1 Corinthians 6:19–20), and we should respect our bodies as we would a temple. President Russell M. Nelson has said:

“I stand in awe of the miracle of the human body. It is a magnificent creation, essential to our gradual ascent toward our ultimate divine potential. We cannot progress without it. In giving us the gift of a body, God has allowed us to take a vital step toward becoming more like Him. …

“Your body is your personal temple, created to house your eternal spirit. Your care of that temple is important” (“We Can Do Better and Be Better,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2019, 68).

And a Talk from David A. Burton who looked to be a Stake President from around 20 years ago but found on the Church Site

Is there anything wrong with getting a tattoo or body piercing

Quote

Reverence and respect for our bodies begets spiritual sensitivity to the gifts of the Holy Ghost. When we revere our bodies as temples of God, it is an outward manifestation of an inward commitment and is a testimony of our understanding that we are children of God.

-------------------

We can defile our body by that which we take into it as well as by that which we do to its external surface. For example, the Lord has given us in the Word of Wisdom His law concerning foods and substances which should and should not be taken into our bodies. As with all His commandments, the more important dimension of this law is spiritual, not temporal. Over the years I have been challenged by some skeptics to justify from a medical perspective how a cup of coffee, a drink of alcohol, or a cigarette could possibly harm them. My response has been that the opportunity cost of their “minor” transgression is measured not in medical but in spiritual terms. By their disobedience they deprive themselves of spiritual sensitivity to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, through which God deigns to reveal to them “wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures” (D&C 89:19). As they defile their bodies through willful disobedience to the Word of Wisdom, they resonate with the spiritually untutored to whom the knowledge of God remains a mystery, thus hindering their progress toward the goal of eternal life.

--------------------------

The greatest antidote to the current spread of body modification is gospel-centered living, which can help us know who we are and what our relationship to God is. Armed with that knowledge, we can respect the sacred nature of our bodies and thus be prepared to resist unwise fads such as tattooing and body piercing.

From an article linked to the Tattoo page on the Church's site. 

[zil2]

10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Didn’t JFS-II also suggest that self-inflicted wounds (ie tattoos, piercings, wounds by suicide) don’t heal—or at least, leave scars— in the resurrection?  That sounds vaguely familiar.

FWIW, if he did, he didn't do it in Doctrines of Salvation using the words tattoo, suicide, or inflicted.  (I have them as PDFs, did a search.)

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m not familiar with that.  Obviously Jesus Christ retained his crucifixion scars though…

Yes, this suggests it's possible.

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

The JFS quote above does seem to clash with “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

I give considerable more weight to an official document signed by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve than a single paragraph found in a three volume set written by a single author. 

Agreed on both counts, but also keep in mind that the Church is here to lead people to exaltation, not to any lesser glory, so all of its teachings are to that end.  Thus, it may still be theoretically possible.  When I first ran across D&C 88:28 and saw that the "same body which was the natural body" promise for those who are celestial was not repeated for the terrestrial or telestial or sons of perdition, I came to the same conclusion before discovering it in Doctrines of Salvation.  Further, that gender is an essential characteristic doesn't necessarily mean that one can't / won't lose or have that characteristic altered as a consequence of sin - after all, we are made with the intent that we choose exaltation - but should we fail, we may well lose whatever characteristics we have developed to that point...  And it can be argued that they will still have a gender, just not the same gender as they had mortally - and the altered gender will be an essential characteristic of their eternal identity and purpose...

Meaningless speculation - the Lord's will will be done.