Book of Mormon Reading Group?

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

If by "investigating" you mean meeting with missionaries and attending LDS services, then no. I have gone through all of that, but about 30 years ago. For a long time I've thought I had good reasons to think the Church is not true, but my interactions with LDS have (nearly) always been so positive that its not easy to walk away completely.

Non-conversion is often the outcome of a thoughtful process. Conversion is usually an outcome of a spiritual process. 

[pam]

8 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

If by "investigating" you mean meeting with missionaries and attending LDS services, then no. I have gone through all of that, but about 30 years ago. For a long time I've thought I had good reasons to think the Church is not true, but my interactions with LDS have (nearly) always been so positive that its not easy to walk away completely.

Its come home to me recently that there's a lot I still don't really understand, and even if I'm going to stay a nonmember, it wouldn't hurt to read the entire BoM. Also this past year has been so horrible and i think a new project like this will help me focus again. I love everyone here on this forum, which is why I've been in-and-out of it for so long. And I'm really thankful to everyone who's joining me for this exercise.

 

Well we love having you on the forums as well.  Thanks for suggesting this.  It is a great suggestion.

 

[Carborendum]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:06 AM, Jamie123 said:

Is anyone else reading The Book of Mormon at the moment? A couple of days back I thought I'd give it another go. And then I thought it would be nice to start a reading group to go through the entire book in stages and exchange thoughts.

...

It would be nice to have a free and open dialogue without fear of that sort of thing. Would anyone be up for it?

Sorry, I'm late to the party. I've been busy for the past week. 

I'd be up for it.  However, there is no way I can keep up with the reading pace.  I'm a notoriously slow reader (And just this week I figured out why). 

Regardless, I'll do my best to give commentary here and there.

On 9/7/2023 at 11:06 AM, Jamie123 said:

On one occasion some missionaries on comeuntichrist.com threw me out of the chat (with the usual "we respect your thoughts but... blah blah... we have a testimony..." etc.) because I dared to suggest that the BoM was written in King James English rather than the language of ancient America.

As for the missionaries, you'll have to forgive them in their youth and ignorance.  They are not meant to be a bastion of knowledge and experience.  They're available as a contact point.  And a source of testimony.  As you stated, that's exactly what they did.

For one thing, the vast majority of the population of the Church doesn't know that we don't have the original manuscript from the translation.  It was destroyed by being stored in a damp basement for a while.  We have damaged portions of the printer's manuscript that was the result of "editorial review" after the original manuscript was completed by translation from the golden plates.

I had commented a while back on the awkward wording of some chapters in the English Book of Mormon which did not seem to undergo the same editorial review.  Such passages were neither common English, nor KJV English.  It was just plain awkward, until you compare it to Hebrew.  It was not exactly Hebrew sentence structure.  But it was more like Hebrew wording in "close to English" sentence structure.

I had theorized that it was due to scheduling, etc. that some portions missed the editorial changes.  And, yes, Joseph thought of the KJV language as something of a sacred language (as did many Christians of the era).  So, they wanted the language to match as closely as they could muster.  One might take note that of all the contemporary criticisms of the Book of Mormon, I have only heard of on apocryphal claim that even mentioned the language being an issue.  That criticism only came a century later when people stopped wanting to read the "dying" KJV language and started opting for more modern translations. 

IOW, they criticized the BoM for having older language.  But they stopped short of criticizing the Bible for the same thing.  They just "made a new translation."  Then they could criticize the BoM without criticizing the Bible for the same thing.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

22 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

 in the hole under the rock. 

It wasn't just a "hole."  It was a "stone box" that was placed in the ground.  The lid was a large rock that was rounded at the top and tapered down toward the edges.  After centuries of erosion, the lid became partially buried and required some work to remove.

Quote

51... On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.

 -- JS-H 1: 51-52

Other than that, we have little direct knowledge of the nature of the box.  However, other examples of similar boxes have been discovered in Mesoamerica which seemed to match the description above.

[Carborendum]

19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I note the monks have a similar dress sense as the Ku Klux Klan

As I recall, the KKK got the idea for this garb from a specific order of monks who originally dressed this way with eye-holes and everything.  But I can't remember where I heard it from.

[zil2]

I'm starting early because if I don't, I'll never get it done.  That said, some vague comments:

I find Nephi's story an easy one to abstract into personal lessons.  I always look for things that I can learn for my personal effort to overcome the world and for things that teach me of Christ, and Nephi's story is full of these.  Also, the story-like nature makes these chapters easy to read.

Chapter 1

v1:

• Good parents teach their children
• Being favored of the Lord does not equate to a lack of afflictions, especially on an individual (as opposed to societal) level.  (From OT and the BofM as a whole:) The Lord's promise of prosperity for the obedient is a societal promise; the more righteous the individual, the more likely they are to experience afflictions (in the world, at least, or so it seems).
• When you have knowledge of God, you should make a record thereof

v4: I've always found it interesting that in both the OT and the BofM, many prophets seemingly showing up out of nowhere seems to be common.  Perhaps we just don't have record of the organization behind them, or perhaps it's modern technology that allows for the degree of organization we now have.  (Though one could discuss the meaning of "prophet", we don't really see this un-centralized appearance of folk calling for repentance or destruction within the modern Church.)  Reminds me of Jeremiah 31:34 - how it will be in the Millennium (or so it seems to me).

v5: When prophets warn us, do we go and pray for our people with all our hearts?

v12: Reading scripture should fill us with the Spirit.

[Klaw objects to my typing.]

v13: Come unto the Lord - it's far better than the alternative.

v6 vs v15: quaking and trembling vs rejoicing - the Lord may show you some awful things, but the righteous need not fear...

v18: see D&C 88:81 - those who have been warned have a duty to warn their neighbor (back to v4)

v19-20: Expect persecution.

v20: See Moroni 10:3 - the book opens and closes with the mercies of the Lord. Everything in between reminds us of them.  Remembering them keeps us humble and helps us to trust the Lord.

Chapter 2

v1: People seeking to kill you means you're blessed. (Alternately, doing as the Lord instructs means you are blessed, even if it so happens that people are trying to kill you because of it.  Alternately, keep an eternal perspective.  Alternately, rejoice and be exceeding glad when people persecute you for Christ's sake.)

v2: Fulfillment of chapter 1:14 - the Lord is merciful and will not suffer those who come to him to perish.

v3: The wording of this - Lehi was obedient (character), wherefore he did as the Lord commanded him (behavior) - sounds redundant, but, it reminds me of a conclusion I recently came to in regards to temple covenants (@Jamie123, if you wish to read this, scroll down just a little to a numbered list of five laws): It would seem that 2 through 5 (obeying specific laws) are covered under the first covenant - the law of obedience.  Being a weirdo, this bothered me slightly until I came to the conclusion that the first law, in addition to saying we should obey God (behavior), is teaching us to have an attitude of obedience (character).  That it should be our habit and desire to be obedient to God.  The others are specific things we can do to obey God, but they aren't all (after all, we can receive personal revelation and guidance, which we should also obey), but if we can develop an attitude and desire to obey God, if we approach it as forming a habit of obeying God, then that first covenant becomes more than just, "when God says something, I'll do it", it becomes deeper, a part of who you are - the kind of person who seeks and follows God's will.  (This probably doesn't really explain what's in me, but it's the best I can do with English.)

v4: The more you love God, and the less you love "precious things", the easier it is to obey God when he tells you to give up those precious things.  And sometimes, God asks you to give up your precious things.

v7: Give thanks, even in hard times, and do it properly.

[Hooray!  Klaw decided to go bask in the sun. I have an hour or so in which to type and write (see chapter 1, verse 1) faster.]

Also, I'm realizing that I love the Book of Mormon.  There's so much in it to learn.   It's truly a gift from God.

v9+ Take inspiration where you can find it.

v9: "continually running into the [Lord]" - as I thought about this, the idea of "running into someone" popped into my head.  When we're doing what the Lord would do, going where he would go, seeking guidance from him, then we'll be continually "running into" him ("Oh, hey, it's you again!"   "As long as I've got you here, I had a question..." "Do you have a minute to help me with this?").  My previous RS lesson (I teach RS): "Abide in Me, and I in You; Therefore Walk with Me" by Elder Bednar.

v10: firm, steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord.  See v3.  Good goal.

[Klaw is back, climbing the back of my chair and chewing on my hair...  ]

v11+: Complaining makes things worse.  See v4.  Perception is everything.  Don't focus on what you lost or even on present difficulties - trust the Lord's promises of what's to come.

[I perceive that a play break is now required...]

v12: Learn the dealings of God.

v13: Trust that God is more powerful than man.  The minute you start having murderous thoughts, something is beyond wrong. (See Matthew 5:43-48 and Proverbs 23:7)

v14: It's OK to shake your children?

v15: Emergency preparedness.

v16: (Why does it matter here that he was large in stature?) Do I have great desires to know of the mysteries of God?  If so, do I properly pursue those desires?  Or do I leave it to prophets and apostles to pursue said mysteries?  Believe what you have already been taught.  It requires softening your heart (humility?) to believe.  Don't follow bad examples.

v17: Testify!

v18: Pray for your enemies! (Matthew 5 again.)

v19: Do what Nephi did - seek diligently, in humility, with faith.

v20: Obey and prosper - the societal promise to all Israel. v21 = the opposite, thus, to prosper is to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

v22: See Abraham 3:6 - perhaps "rule" should be thought of as "to give light to".

v23: The greatest protection from the wicked is in the Lord.

v24: Affliction is, at least in part, to keep you humble and help you remember the Lord.

Chapter 3

v5+: Before complaining about an assignment, remember from whom it really comes.  (See also Alma 7:23  - be "easy to be entreated".)

v7: See also Jeremiah 32:17 - even [Klawus Interruptis]

(I'm typing away, and little demon just flops right onto that arm with my hand and the keyboard as a pillow, and falls completely asleep.  I'm laughing so hard I'm crying and he's dead to the world.  Using only my right hand, I manage to use the laptop camera and mouse to get a picture.  An alarm goes off in the other room, and he's still completely zonked...  Scripture study, Zil-style.)

v7: See also Jeremiah 32:17 - even when the way seems impossible, nothing is too hard for the Lord.

v13+: When you're on the Lord's errand, don't be surprised if some folks get angry, kick you out, accuse you falsely, and try to kill you.

v15+: Don't give up!  Trust the Lord (see v7).  Just because you're on the Lord's errand, don't expect him to always make it easy.  Use the resources you already have, even if they may not be enough (see the feeding of the various thousands in the New Testament).  (Meanwhile, good thing we left all those precious things behind, otherwise it might have been another round trip into the wilderness to fetch them.  And they must have had a really good security system for it all to still be there... )

v19+: Preserve those things which will teach your children what's important.

v21: When necessary, use all your best arguments to convince and encourage others.

v25+: Just because you're honest doesn't mean others will be...

v29: Angels don't always do you favors (revealing Nephi would rule over them probably made life harder for Nephi).  Note that here the angel says that it's Laban who will be delivered into their hands, not the brass plates.

v31: Seriously?  Two seconds after the angel is gone you start whining again?  See v7 and v15.

Other:

Getting ahead a little, but this whole sequence in the wilderness and back and forth to Jerusalem demonstrates that the Lord isn't concerned with what we would perceive as efficiency.  For example, it would seem more efficient to get the plates before leaving, and to pick up Ishmael's family on the way out of town.  Of course, one can imagine all sorts of technical and tactical reasons to do it the way they did.  And one can imagine that the Lord is testing their obedience before giving them more to do.  But one thing I learned in my time as a RS President was that the Lord isn't so concerned with speed and efficiency (more accurately, getting things accomplished as quickly and efficiently as we humans can manage / imagine).  Rather, He is concerned with the individuals involved, ensuring they experience the things they need to experience to draw them closer to him.  FWIW.

Parting thoughts: Don't think I can spend this much time every day, but we'll see!

[Jamie123]

First comment on today's reading:

Its  not made very clear who Laban was - only that somehow or other he had the records which the new Israelite colony would need to maintain continuity with their past.

I remember my first time around reading this, there was something (in the Book of Mormon I had then) about Laban being "high up in the church". Since this was 600BC there couldn't have been a "church" per se, and I wondered if "church" was a clumsy reference "Temple" or "synagogue".  I asked the missionaries about this, but I couldn't get them to see what I was asking.

Looking at the text now I couldn't find any reference to "church" - unless it appears later and I missed it. Can anyone shine any light on this?

[zil2]

16 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Its  not made very clear who Laban was - only that somehow or other he had the records which the new Israelite colony would need to maintain continuity with their past.

It is presumed that Laban was a relative of Lehi (hence the fact that the brass plates had Lehi's genealogy on them).  Otherwise, as we learn at the end of chapter 3 and in chapter 4, he was a powerful man in a position of some authority.  This power and authority is probably why he had a copy of scripture on brass plates.

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wondered if "church" was a clumsy reference "Temple" or "synagogue"

Yes.

18 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Can anyone shine any light on this?

I think anything else is (educated) speculation - the scriptures say very little about the man.

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

(I'm typing away, and little demon just flops right onto that arm with my hand and the keyboard as a pillow, and falls completely asleep.  I'm laughing so hard I'm crying and he's dead to the world.  Using only my right hand, I manage to use the laptop camera and mouse to get a picture.  An alarm goes off in the other room, and he's still completely zonked...  Scripture study, Zil-style

I get the impression you're reluctant to do anything against the (k)law?

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

It is presumed that Laban was a relative of Lehi (hence the fact that the brass plates had Lehi's genealogy on them).  Otherwise, as we learn at the end of chapter 3 and in chapter 4, he was a powerful man in a position of some authority.  This power and authority is probably why he had a copy of scripture on brass plates.

Yes.

I think anything else is (educated) speculation - the scriptures say very little about the man.

Laban's behavior in chapter 3 - theft, attempted murder and public drunkenness - seem to be at odds with his position in religious society. Perhaps the fact that a man who behaved like that and who had a senior position in a religious organisation gives an insight into, or leads to a conclusion about, the condition of the religious organisation at the time. Such a conclusion gains support from the number of prophets that the Lord sent to preach to/warn that society at that time. 

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Getting ahead a little, but this whole sequence in the wilderness and back and forth to Jerusalem demonstrates that the Lord isn't concerned with what we would perceive as efficiency. 

I think that on this occasion, if God had been primarily concerned with the accomplishment of the task, He would have provided them with the means to accomplish the task. Instead, He sent them back to Jerusalem with nothing, no plan, and no resources. The fact that He sent them back with nothing, thereby further increasing their reliance on Him for a way to accomplish the task, suggests that on this occasion God was perhaps at least as equally concerned with the personal/spiritual development of those doing the task

[askandanswer]

It seems God doesn't want me to study the scriptures today. When I try to go to the Doctrine and Covenants, I get 

Please try again later.

Status Code: 403

I guess I could always get my hard copy from the lounge room but its such a long way from here. 

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I get the impression you're reluctant to do anything against the (k)law?

Every cat-owner will tell you, the law is that once the cat takes up residence on any part of you, you are not allowed to move until the cat does.

[zil2]

Just now, askandanswer said:

It seems God doesn't want me to study the scriptures today. When I try to go to the Doctrine and Covenants, I get 

Please try again later.

Status Code: 403

I guess I could always get my hard copy from the lounge room but its such a long way from here. 

Yeah, they've been doing some overhaul, and don't get me started about the development team for the Gospel Library app.

[askandanswer]

Problem: we don’t have the information contained on the brass plates

Possible solutions:

Reveal again the required knowledge contained on the plates directly to Lehi. God has done something similar with Jeremiah when the scriptures were burnt. Receiving this information as a direct revelation from God might have resulted in an improved quality of information compared with what was already on the plates

Decrease the need for obtaining the plates held by Laban by arranging for the same information to contained on another set of plates that they would later find in their new country, in a similar way that the people of Mosiah later found the plates of the Jaredites

Prompt Zoram to take the plates from Laban and bring them to Lehi

Get a set of plates from someone else who had a similar or identical copy and who might have been more willing to sell them in exchange for Lehi’s worldly good

Provide Lehi with a copy of the required information in the same way that he was provided with a Liahona.

Arrange for Laban, at the first attempt, to be laying drunk, alone and unconscious at night, somewhere outside the gates of the city, in a manner similar to what happened

God did not use any of these methods. Instead, He sent Lehi’s sons back to get the plates.

Sometimes, only sometimes, we can get a better understanding of what was done and how it was done by considering why other ways of accomplishing the same objective were not chosen. Choice sometimes reveal the character, or the motives, of the person, and maybe of the Being, making the choice, although this method of increasing our understanding generally requires far more information than what is typically available.

Edited September 9, 2023 by askandanswer

[askandanswer]

Given that Laman and Lemuel contributed so little to the achievement of the outcome, and perhaps even detracted from the outcome being achieved, its a little odd that they were included in the retrieval party. I guess this is further evidence that God was at least as equally interested in character development than the accomplishment of the task.

[askandanswer]

I have never been able to reconcile 1 Nephi 3:7 with Doctrine and Covenants 124: 49

1 Nephi 3:7 

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no ^bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall ^cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 124:49

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

 

I also cannot see how Adam and Eve could have kept both of the commandments not to eat of the fruit and to go forth and multiply. Was a way prepared for them to accomplish both of these things?

 

Perhaps a youthful and enthusiastic naivete of Nephi is the best explanation?

Edited September 9, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

37 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Problem: we don’t have the information contained on the brass plates

Possible solutions:

Hack Laban's server and steal the file.  Oh, wait.  Nevermind.

17 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I have never been able to reconcile 1 Nephi 3:7 with Doctrine and Covenants 124: 49

My understanding of the latter situation is that the way was prepared, but too few were willing to do the work and the Lord held guiltless those who tried their best (but presumably will still hold accountable those who did not).  (But I could be wrong in that - my memory of these history things isn't great.)

18 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I also cannot see how Adam and Eve could have kept both of the commandments not to eat of the fruit and to go forth and multiply. Was a way prepared for them to accomplish both of these things?

I have always believed that had Adam and Eve resisted Satan and then asked God about what they had been told, God would have revealed more information to them until they were able to make a more informed choice.  That would have been the way.  But, we don't know what would have happened had they followed a different course.  This is the only example I can think of that comes close to countering Nephi's assertion.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I get the impression you're reluctant to do anything against the (k)law?

She's afraid of The Klaw.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

My understanding of the latter situation is that the way was prepared, but too few were willing to do the work and the Lord held guiltless those who tried their best (but presumably will still hold accountable those who did not).  (But I could be wrong in that - my memory of these history things isn't great.)

I believe along similar lines.  This situation was different because the commandment was for a large group of individuals.  It was not something that the Lord expected a few to perform.  It required many.

And when many were unwilling, the few remaining could no longer do the task that He had outlined as given.  So, they asked what to do?  They were then told that they were relieved of the task.

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

I have always believed that had Adam and Eve resisted Satan and then asked God about what they had been told, God would have revealed more information to them until they were able to make a more informed choice.  That would have been the way.  But, we don't know what would have happened had they followed a different course.  This is the only example I can think of that comes close to countering Nephi's assertion.

They could have asked.  But I believe that there are some things we're supposed to figure out for ourselves.  That is part of growth.

And I interject the phrase

Quote

For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.

 -- 2 Ne 9:6

I somehow think that this does not mean just this earth.  As Christ's Atonement was for all worlds, I believe the fall was for all worlds.  Certain things had been done in other worlds.  But they didn't choose to fall.  Other worlds decided to ask instead of choosing.  They had to be told.  But this one world had Michael.  And he chose as did his wife.

By exercising choice, they brought about the mortal experience which was a necessary part of the plan.  Choice was a part of the plan.  And this transgression was different than any other sin by any other individual (or couple) in all of creation.

Then we also have the figurative meaning of the garden, the fall, and the expulsion -- all of which have multiple parallel meanings.  And the choice (by both Adam & Eve) has deep symbolic meaning.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[pam]

I wonder if we should break this down under the scriptures section by day on the schedule.  This is going to get so long and hard for anyone to read after awhile.  @zil2 would you want to start that?  I would but I've got so much going on getting ready to go on vacation Monday.  

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, pam said:

I wonder if we should break this down under the scriptures section by day on the schedule.  This is going to get so long and hard for anyone to read after awhile.  @zil2 would you want to start that?  I would but I've got so much going on getting ready to go on vacation Monday.  

I might wait to see how many chime in - e.g., for today's reading, only three of us actually commented on the reading.  Perhaps it will make sense to make a thread per book or per week or something.  Let's leave this one at least for the first several chapters of 1 Nephi, and go from there.

@Jamie123 - please chime in on whether / how you'd like it broken out.  Pam is right that one thread will likely get unwieldy.  I'm thinking one per week or so would work out better.  E.g. this one can hold up through the 15th (1 Nephi 1-16) or we can start a new one tomorrow and go Sunday through Saturday.  Whatever works for you.  (One per book probably isn't a good idea as some books are a single chapter and Alma has a zillion chapters.)  And one per day seems like too many - also, some discussions will likely carry over...

[Just_A_Guy]

Just saw this.  Like @Carborendum, the reading pace is a little ambitious for me; but I’ll chime in if I feel like I have anything useful to contribute.

@Jamie123, if you have a few extra dollars (pounds?) lying around, consider springing for this edition of the Book of Mormon.  I’ve found it immensely helpful in coming to understand the BoM more as a cohesive text (once you’re done, you might also look at Grant Hardy’s “Understanding the Book of Mormon”).

I will note, FWIW, that probably the premier scholar of the BoM text from a linguistic standpoint is Royal Skousen.  I believe he has concluded that the BoM’s English is primarily 16th-17th century, and even contains some archaic linguistic constructs from that period that do *not* appear either in the KJV Bible or in colloquial 19th century New England speech patterns.  I understand he has a pet theory/speculation (and of course, it could never be more than that) that Wycliffe, Tyndale, and others who were involved in generating the text that evolved into the KJV may have been part of a sort of “spirit committee” that was delegated, beyond the grave, to produce the translation that was given to Joseph Smith.  

[Just_A_Guy]

8 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

First comment on today's reading:

Its  not made very clear who Laban was - only that somehow or other he had the records which the new Israelite colony would need to maintain continuity with their past.

I remember my first time around reading this, there was something (in the Book of Mormon I had then) about Laban being "high up in the church". Since this was 600BC there couldn't have been a "church" per se, and I wondered if "church" was a clumsy reference "Temple" or "synagogue".  I asked the missionaries about this, but I couldn't get them to see what I was asking.

Looking at the text now I couldn't find any reference to "church" - unless it appears later and I missed it. Can anyone shine any light on this?

1 Ne 4:26 is where the word “church” appears.

I believe most Biblical scholars would tell you that the synagogue only came into being as an element of Jewish worship, after the destruction of the Temple.  Personally, I think that even given the dominance of the temple and the familial nature of Jewish worship/teaching at the time, there must have been *some* sort of institutional forerunner through which worship practices were prescribed, ancient texts preserved and relayed (perhaps primarily in oral form) and local religious controversies mediated and resolved; and the word “church”—though inevitably a problematic term—was probably as good an English term as any to describe that institution.  (cf “horse”, “elephant”, “curelom”, etc).

Edited September 10, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I have never been able to reconcile 1 Nephi 3:7 with Doctrine and Covenants 124: 49

1 Nephi 3:7 

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no ^bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall ^cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 124:49

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

 

I also cannot see how Adam and Eve could have kept both of the commandments not to eat of the fruit and to go forth and multiply. Was a way prepared for them to accomplish both of these things?

 

Perhaps a youthful and enthusiastic naivete of Nephi is the best explanation?

1 Nephi becomes more poignant when we remember that Nephi is writing this story down the second time (he’s already written the large plates), and he’s writing over twenty years after the events he’s writing about, and he knows the later events—the arguing, the disintegration of the family group after his failed efforts to maintain unity, the ensuing bloodshed that he has seen and that he knows is only the beginning of a thousand years of war that must end in extermination.  This is Nephi the (guilt-ridden and somewhat disillusioned, Hardy suggests) old man, writing about Nephi the invincibly optimistic boy.  

Edited September 10, 2023 by Just_A_Guy