Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18)

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

It's an appropriate but unfortunately misleading word.

"Easily misunderstood" is probably more accurate.  I suspect, but don't know, that the tendency to think "formal organization" first and "collection of believers" second or third is a modern one.

[Carborendum]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

Today's reading is difficult for me to comment on without getting myself into trouble. But I'll try, and sorry if i upset anyone.

I appreciate the disclaimer.  I'll try not to be offended or offensive.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

The "dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations" would appear to be the Native Americans.

Not necessarily. And for the most part, the truth is not what the average church member will tell you.  (at least from my interpretation).

• "Dark" really is about skin tone.  But I do believe this is a combination of culture and historical reality. I believe that the ancient, native inhabitants of this continent did have darker skin.  The culture of the time from the Mediterranean peoples preferred light skin to dark.  So, it was only natural for someone from that time to comment on dark skin being less pleasant.  People are products of their times no matter who they are.  But the Lamanites who separated from them felt free to intermarry with anyone (including the pre-existing race of the inhabitants of that continent).
• As far as the remainder (loathesome, filthy, idle...) I don't see that as being inaccurate or racist (if that's what you're hinting at).  It was simply observational of what wickedness tends to do to people.
• Are they the Native Americans?  Partially.  Near the end of the BoM, we find that all the people freely associated with one another.  There is no doubt in my mind that this would also mean that they freely married interracially.  So, they all became a mixed race people to become a new homogeneous race.  The result 1000 years later would be the native Americans we see today.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

Similarly the "great and abominable church" would seem at first glance to be the Roman Catholic Church - or perhaps all forms of Christianity between the Apostolic Age and the early 19th Century.

It was an early theory that this referred to the Roman Catholic Church.  But it was put to bed in the 60s or 70s, I believe. 

While the RCC had a role to play in all this, it is basically referring to what we would today call a conspiracy theory.  The difference being that this is an honest to goodness, real conspiracy group/cabal.  

They don't simply present themselves as a single organization (e.g. RCC).  They embed members of the cabal into various organizations throughout the world.  Anywhere there is power, there will be some influence there.  The RCC was a world power for centuries.  So, yes, there were embedded "agents" in the RCC for some time.  Today, we have many governments that have a LOT of members of said cabal within their ranks.

The RCC and the LDSC has had pretty favorable relations over the years.  And I've never heard of any bad blood between us as organizations.  And the hierarchies of each church seem to have always gotten on.  Individuals may say what they will.  But as a whole, not a lot.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

"In captivity" seems a strong turn of phrase. The people who colonised America were not by and large prisoners in Europe, and they were not forcibly held back from emigrating.

While your sentiment is true, it is misplaced.  The people in captivity was not referring to ALL of the immigrants to the Americas.  The captivity was primarily about the people who were not allowed to worship as they pleased.  This was first by the Catholic Church.  Later, the Anglican Church.

In the Lord's mind, there are many types of captivity by man.  But the most egregious is that type that prevents one from living according to one's conscience.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

Then the "book from the mouth of a Jew" - clearly the Bible - which is a version of Laban's plates, stripped of important content by this "abominable church" which he calls it "the mother of harlots". (That's pretty strong language!)

As you mentioned, the word "church."

In addition to my earlier comments about the etymology, I will add an intermediate definition, again from Old English.

While church originally referred to the building.  It also referred to the organization that ran it.  Specifically, it was about the hierarchy of priests, etc.  Later, it also began to refer to the association/community of the individual members.

I remember a line from Ghostbusters where the Cardinal spoke with the Mayor and said,"Officially, the Church has no position on such phenomena."  This obviously referred to the Pope and other officials within the church.  It did not mean the building.  And it could not refer to all the individual Catholics throughout the world.

Additionally, I have to inject my conversation with an atheist friend who held that any "ideology" of any kind really is just another word for religion.  We debated for a bit.  But the bottom line was that the differences between an ideology and a religion is mostly a matter of perspective, but not really of much substance.  We devote our lives to a belief system.  We run our lives according to those beliefs.  We give of our time, talents, energy, and means to promote those beliefs... That's a religion, baby.

But by 1830, I don't know how many people were using the word "ideology".  I doubt the term "belief system" was even coined.  So, what word would have been understood by an 1830s American?

So, throughout 1 Ne 13, consider all of this when you read the word Church.  It was a system of beliefs that had great influence on society.  Ther is some sort of organization to it all.  And the devil was the one at the head of said ideology.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

1 Nephi 15

v3: do we assume we understand, or do we "inquire of the Lord"?  Nephi understood and believed his father, yet still inquired of the Lord.  Laman and Lemuel didn't understand and didn't inquire of the Lord; they disputed with each other.  Lesson to be learned here.

v8-11: it seems like Laman and Lemuel had given up on asking because previously they got no answers.  How often do we do that, even if we don't give up entirely on the Lord, when instead, we should do as Nephi suggests and consider our own obedience, humility, and faith?  I think this is where "real intent" comes in - we can't just ask wanting to know, we have to ask sincerely intending to act in harmony with the answer, no matter what it is.  Or, we may need to change questions, and ask how to prepare for the answer...

v13+: @Jamie123, in this section, Gentiles can mean both "non-Israel" - e.g. the people who colonized the Americas and brought Christianity to those already here - and it can mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  (Some uses in other places in scripture are limited to those who have not made covenants with God, but in this instance at least, it can mean either one - in essence, those who aren't seen as descended from Jacob/Israel.)

v15: You don't have to have fallen away to rejoice.  Don't take for granted the gift of knowing (of) God and your Redeemer.

v25: How easy it would have been for Nephi to give up on his brothers, to say, "Figure it out for yourselves", or dismiss them in some other way.  Instead, he used "all the energies of [his] soul" and "all the faculty" he possessed.  This is another lesson for us.

Chapter 16

v1-5: If the truth hurts, you can at least be glad that you're not past feeling, and choose to repent.

v2: "...wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center."  This reminds me of 3 Nephi 11:3 where (SPOILER ALERT! ) the voice of God the Father has a similar effect even though they didn't understand what the voice said:

Quote

...and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

... and that reminds me of Deuteronomy 5:22-27 (part below):

Quote

24 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.

The 3 Nephi passage makes it a little easier to understand why the elders of Israel didn't want to hear the voice of God again, and yet, I think our desire should be that the voice of God is welcome to our ears and hearts...

v18+: Is a good lesson on how to handle mistakes and problems / trials. (1) The murmuring doesn't help - it makes things worse; (2) Discourage negativity / encourage positivity; (3) Take what action you can; (4) Respect authority; (5) Be humble, ask God; (6) Repent, take correction from God; (7) Obey with faith.  Failure to heed the Lord can lead to loss of his guidance. (8) Give thanks when the trial is over.

v38: Apparently, it's easy to delude yourself even after having seen an angel.

v39: It's easy to overlook this short mention that Laman and Lemuel also heard the voice of the Lord.

[askandanswer]

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by askandanswer

[Jamie123]

The Liahona has always been a source of fascination for me. It seems to be an artifact of sorts, but it pops up from nowhere (almost like a gift from Santa), with no indication of who made it. Did God make it himself? Or was it perhaps the work of some earlier civilization? It has two spindles, one of which indicates the way to go - rather like the "cloud by day, fire by night" - but how did they know this? (There's no mention of any note being left with the device. Maybe it was in one of the messages that appeared on the Liahona.) It's not even called "the liahona" in the text - I believe that word only appears much later.

Question: what did the other spindle do? I read somewhere that it acted as an ordinary compass needle, but is this based on anything in the book?

Nephi's bow was made of "fine steel". Some people point to steel in the BoM as an anachronism, but a quick Web search suggests that steel was around as early as 1300BC - so maybe there's no need to make an issue of this.

P.S. Irrelevant of course, but I can't believe that the alethiometer in Philip Pulman's Dark Materials isn't somewhat inspired by the Liahona. I'm not the only person to have thought this: check out https://www.frumiousreads.com/post/a-z-of-his-dark-materials-alethiometer

Edited September 15, 2023 by Jamie123

[askandanswer]

If it is just to divide the wicked from the righteous, it follows that it would be unjust for them to remain together. And yet this is the situation we see in most of mortality.

 

1 Nephi 15

 speaks of the justice of God in dividing the wicked from the righteous.

The account we have from Nephi or Lehi's words is easy enough to understand. Either there were many things which Lehi spoke with Nephi has not given an account of, or Nephi wrote Lehi's words in a way that makes them easy to understand. I guess the fact that Nephi's understandings had been enhanced by the vision he received would help a lot to explain why his words are easy to understand. His bretheren had not received any such explanatory vision.

1 Nephi 15:3

Book of Mormon

3 For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood

 

Nephi had just been given a marvellous vision and had prolonged interaction with an angel and the effect is to leave him feeling overcome because of his afflictions? That sound strange. And the reason for his feeling overcome is because he had seen the end, 1,000 years hence, of a group of people, some of whom had descended from him? That also seems strange, I can't imagine feeling too upset at the demise of a group of people with whom I had such little connection a thousand years into the future.

1 Nephi 15:5

Book of Mormon

5 And it came to pass that I was overcome because of my afflictions,

 

 

This reminds me of 1 Nephi 1:7 and of how Lehi also appeared to be quite physically tired, or overcome, as a result of the visionary experience that he had. This is also consistent with Joseph Smith's comments about Oliver Cowdery after they both received in vision section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Visions, literally, seem to be tiring things.

1 Nephi 15:6

Book of Mormon

6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength

 

 

I think this is the best question nephi could have asked, even though he probably already knew the answer.

1 Nephi 15:8

Book of Mormon

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

 

 

Their failure to inquire significantly increases the likelihood that the Lord will make no such thing known to them.

1 Nephi 15:9

Book of Mormon

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

 

Nephi is feeling down because he has just seen in vision that his people will perish and here he is telling his brethren that they will perish. And we have good reason to believe, from their refusal to take of the fruit in Lehi's dream, that they did perish. So the founders of the Lamanite race perished but their people did not. And the founder of the Nephites did not perish, but his people did. 

1 Nephi 15:10

Book of Mormon

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

 

 

Its verses like this - and there are many - why I get slightly annoyed at those who deny the possibility of knowing everything about God and His works and who take refuge behind scriptures such as Isaiah 55:9

1 Nephi 15:11

Book of Mormon

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

 

 

I read a post the other day on third hour inquiring why it was an olive tree and not something else that the house of Israel had been likened to. Mikbone pointed out how bad a natural olive tastes, and the extensive preparation that needs to be done before an olive is made to taste nice. I wonder if that applies to the house of Israel - how they need to go through a lot before they emerge as good people?

1 Nephi 15:12

Book of Mormon

12 Behold, I say unto you, that the house of Israel was compared unto an olive tree, 

 

 

Nephi seems to speak in value-neutral terms here about having been broken off from the house of Israel, ie, there is nothing to indicate in these words that he thinks it is a good thing or a bad thing that they have been broken off. This is is contrast to the remarks of his brother as written in Jacob 7:26.

1 Nephi 15:12

Book of Mormon

12 Behold, I say unto you, that the house of Israel was compared unto an olive tree, by the Spirit of the Lord which was in our father; and behold are we not broken off from the house of Israel, and are we not a branch of the house of Israel?

 

[askandanswer]

12 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

The Liahona has always been a source of fascination for me. It seems to be an artifact of sorts, but it pops up from nowhere (almost like a gift from Santa), with no indication of who made it. Did God make it himself? Or was it perhaps the work of some earlier civilization? It has two spindles, one of which indicates the way to go - rather like the "cloud by day, fire by night" - but how did they know this? (There's no mention of any note being left with the device.) It's not even called "the liahona" in the text - I believe that word only appears much later.

Question: what did the other spindle do? I read somewhere that it acted as an ordinary compass needle, but is this based on anything in the book?

Nephi's bow was made of "fine steel". Some people point to steel in the BoM as an anachronism, but a quick Web search suggests that steel was around as early as 1300BC - so maybe there's no need to make an issue of this.

P.S. Irrelevant of course, but I can't believe that the alethiometer in Philip Pulman's Dark Materials isn't somewhat inspired by the Liahona. I'm not the only person to have thought this: check out https://www.frumiousreads.com/post/a-z-of-his-dark-materials-alethiometer

I've always thought that it's creation was arranged by God but I haven't found any evidence to suggest any particular answer. 

I'm curious as to what light others might shed on the origins of the word liahona. 

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

The Liahona has always been a source of fascination for me. It seems to be an artifact of sorts, but it pops up from nowhere (almost like a gift from Santa), with no indication of who made it. Did God make it himself? Or was it perhaps the work of some earlier civilization?

Good question.  No idea. 

The only clue is that Alma 37 tells us that "the Lord prepared it."  But we don't know if that was a literal miracle where "poof" there it is, or if he inspired and taught a man to make it (which is usually how the Lord operates) or something else.  Regardless, the actual appearance within their camp was clearly miraculous.

12 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

It has two spindles, one of which indicates the way to go - rather like the "cloud by day, fire by night" - but how did they know this? (There's no mention of any note being left with the device. Maybe it was in one of the messages that appeared on the Liahona.)

It's not even called "the liahona" in the text - I believe that word only appears much later.

Yes, Nephi didn't have a word for it because the compass had not been invented yet.  There was nothing like it in the world. It is possible that the Liahona did incorporate magnetism in the mechanics.  If so, it could have allowed the Nephites to invent a compass earlier than the world at large.  The world invented it around Alma's time.

It appears that by Alma's time (around 100 BC -- that's when the name Liahona is first used in the BoM) it had been invented among the Nephites for some time since he says "our fathers called it" (this would imply many generations before Alma) and "which by interpretation means compass."  This seems to say that the word had been coined long before Alma's time and when a different language was spoken.  Since then compasses had been invented among the Nephites by that time.

The word compass was originally about circles and the tool we use to draw them.  It is also the root of the word encompass.  The usage of the word for the magenetic device should then be obvious.

Nephi commented that it was of "curious workmanship." Curious can mean subtle or sophisticated (Latin origin).  Both definitions could apply here.

The word Liahona has been theorized to mean "God is our Guide."  This is based on some word play between Hebrew and Egyptian (the combination of which would probably have been the origin of the eventual Nephite language due to Nephi's education).  But the linguistic analysis used to come up with this is only reasonable, not certain. 

Could "God is our Guide" be the equivalent of "compass"?  I can see a possible etymological path there.  That would certainly be a cloud by day and fire by night.  But who knows?

12 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Question: what did the other spindle do? I read somewhere that it acted as an ordinary compass needle, but is this based on anything in the book?

I can't think of the reference, but I had thought that the writing that appeared on it was the result of the second spindle.  I may have simply inferred that.

Another possibility is that it was a level.  The compass was horizontal, and the other spindle was vertical.  Just a hypothesis.

12 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Nephi's bow was made of "fine steel". Some people point to steel in the BoM as an anachronism, but a quick Web search suggests that steel was around as early as 1300BC - so maybe there's no need to make an issue of this.

Yes, as you point out, it isn't a historical issue.  This had been a common anti-Mormon trope for many years.  And many anti-Mormons continue to make this claim.

Additionally, Nephi describes Laban's sword as "the most precious steel."  There is a question of whether he meant that of all the steel alloys available, that this was the most precious kind, or if by being made of steel at all, it was considered precious.  Although it existed back then, it was still rare.  It was very difficult to get a fire hot enough to refine and forge it.  So, any steel would have been fairly precious metal.

How could he know if it was "precious" by simply looking at it and hefting it?  Excellent question!  I'm glad you asked.

Iron was hard to forge in those days.  While they had made fires hot enough for refining and forging, not a lot of advancement in the process had occurred until much later.  So, to make steel of any significant size without a lot of flaws in it was rare indeed.  Steel was used for jewelry (small pieces) because it was so rare.  It was prized for its strength compared to other available metals.  If you could make a sword out of it that didn't have a lot of cracks, pits, etc. it was pretty precious.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

Lemuel and Laman are being right royal pains in the backside again. (And if I remember rightly it won't be the last time!) During my first investigation, one of the sister missionaries told me she could never understand why they had to come at all, since all they ever did was cause trouble, but that she supposed our heroes (Lehi, Sam, Nephi etc.) needed some element of pushback to test their mettle.

Just one minor point: Nephi tells his brothers that all the Israelites will be destroyed except a few who who would be taken captive. This isn't quite what happened: after the city fell, Zedekiah (who had tried to escape) was captured and taken into captivity, along with the cream of Jewish society. (Many, such as Ezekiel, and the previous king - Zedekiah's nephew - had already been taken at the end of the first seige, after which the Babylonians installed Zedekiah as their puppet.) The remaining survivors stayed where they were*, and were ruled by another puppet (though not this time a king) called Gedaliah - at least until he was assassinated, which led to further reprisals from Babylon and the flight of the remaining "Jewish nationalists" to Egypt. But of course this is not God speaking; it is Nephi talking to his brothers about things of which he only has partial knowledge, and is perhaps exaggerating too.

*Jeremiah was amongst them. Tradition has it that he wrote the book of Lamentations during that time.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Jamie123
Dangling preposition

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Lemuel and Laman are being right royal pains in the backside again. (And if I remember rightly it won't be the last time!) During my first investigation, one of the sister missionaries told me she could never understand why they had to come at all, since all they ever did was cause trouble, but that she supposed our heroes (Lehi, Sam, Nephi etc.) needed some element of pushback to test their mettle.

Yup, a lot of LDS wonder the same thing.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Just one minor point: Nephi tells his brothers that all the Israelites will be destroyed except a few who who would be taken captive. This isn't quite what happened: after the city fell, Zedekiah (who had tried to escape) was captured and taken into captivity, along with the cream of Jewish society. (Many, such as Ezekiel, and the previous king - Zedekiah's nephew - had already been taken at the end of the first seige, after which the Babylonians installed Zedekiah as their puppet.) The remaining survivors stayed where they were*, and were ruled by another puppet (though not this time a king) called Gedaliah - at least until he was assassinated, which led to further reprisals from Babylon and the flight of the remaining "Jewish nationalists" to Egypt. But of course this is not God speaking; it is Nephi talking to his brothers about things of which he only has partial knowledge, and is perhaps exaggerating too.

*Jeremiah was amongst them. Tradition has it that he wrote the book of Lamentations during that time.

It may have been an exaggeration, or a perspective, or...

If you saw the movie The Scorpion King, the Sorceress (played by Kelly Hu) saw Mathayus (The Rock) being felled by an arrow.  She then tells him that if he went through with this attack, he would die.

It turned out that he did indeed get shot.  And he fell -- just like she saw.  But it didn't kill him.  That part of the vision was not shown to her.  But she extrapolated from what she saw and assumed he died.

I tend to believe that some visions from the Lord can be misinterpreted the same way.  The visions aren't meant to give play-by-play, moment-by-moment information of every single individual of an entire nation (with rare exceptions).  It was just an overall impression.  And as an overall impression, I'd say it was pretty accurate to say "everyone" (air quotes) was either captured or destroyed.  Notice the word destroyed rather than killed.

Being a puppet ruler for one who was recently king sure feels like captivity to the former king.  Such vassals are a shell of their former self.  Sounds like they destroyed him.

When you're an average citizen being subject to having your religious practices constantly questioned, that also seems like captivity.  Their nation was no longer their own.  While technically citizens of Babylon, they were never really part of the society.  They couldn't re-build their temple until Cyrus.

A figurative meaning of destroyed (or literal if you're talking about societies) could easily be applied to the Samaritans.  Ezra 5 tells of an event here because the Samaritans (I don't believe that appellation had been coined by that time, but they were the same people) caused trouble for the returned Jews in re-building the temple.  They were not deported, they were not killed.  But they lost their faith and their history to a great extent.  The returning Jews rejected them because they were considered the dregs of society that had remained.  They no longer practiced their faith. They intermarried with non-believers.  Yes, they were a destroyed people.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Carborendum

[askandanswer]

The wicked hardly take the truth.

1 Nephi 16

Book of Mormon

The wicked take the truth to be hard

 

 

This sounds like a much better guide than what Brigham Young had when looking for the Great Salt Lake valley.

1 Nephi 16

Book of Mormon

—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness

 

This is a very public way for the Lord to communicate, markedly different from the more customary approach of giving inspiration or guidance to one person, usually a man.

1 Nephi 16

Book of Mormon

Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time

 

It seems as though they were willing to have Nephi be their teacher, but not their leader.

I'm not sure if I would be on speaking terms with my brothers if they had tried to kill me.

1 Nephi 16:1

Book of Mormon

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren,

 

We are all guilty of something

1 Nephi 16:2

Book of Mormon

2 the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, 

 

 

There is little evidence here of the material prosperity that is so frequently promised to those who are obedient and righteous.

1 Nephi 16:6

Book of Mormon

6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent

 

[zil2]

Sorry for being late - let myself get distracted this morning and that's always a bad idea...

1 Nephi 17

v4 - I think we have no perspective to appreciate this - I'm guessing it was around 2200 miles, a journey which would take 2 days by car (without stopping to sleep). In pioneer days, a wagon could travel 8 to 20 miles per day - that's 275 to 110 days...  8 years would be about 275 miles per year, 23 miles per month...  Anywho, a long and slow journey.

v9 - Instead of looking at the impossibility of the task, Nephi's reaction is to figure out how to get started.  I should be so positive / faithful / willing.

Nibley's Lehi in the Desert explains some of the probable reasons for not lighting fire, slow travel, etc.

v21 - it can be difficult to learn that happiness is a choice and not a reaction nor something that happens to you.  Apparently Laman and Lemuel were unwilling to learn this.

v23+ - It's one thing to know what scripture records, it's another to really believe, and another still to really trust the Lord.

v50-51 - lesson in faith.

v55 - you can know and yet not have faith, or lose (or reject?) the knowledge awfully quickly...

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

There is little evidence here of the material prosperity that is so frequently promised to those who are obedient and righteous.

I'm not sure I agree, but, as near as I can tell, this promise is only ever extended to entire societies, not to individuals or even families - basically, to the covenant people as a whole.

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

Instead of looking at the impossibility of the task, Nephi's reaction is to figure out how to get started.

I think that's a very sensible policy. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

Many years ago when I was a graduate student, one of my fellow students used that as the epigraph in his dissertation. When I asked him where it came from he was evasive. A few days later I happened to be watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Master Splinter said it. I thought "No wonder he didn't want to quote his source!"

I've since discovered it didn't begin there. I believe it is usually credited to Confucius.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

...usually credited to Confucius.

Yes.  And I have found, especially in relation to the gospel, that there is inordinate power in the first step - as if this is what invokes God's grace to enable us to do far more than we might have on our own.  A gift for merely trying moving forward with faith - loaves and fishes sort of thing.

Edited September 17, 2023 by zil2

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I've since discovered it didn't begin there. I believe it is usually credited to Confucius.

Not that it matters, but if you want to know...

It is just an old Chinese Proverb of unknown origin (too ancient).  But it wasn't miles since that unit had not been invented yet.  It was a li (a common unit of measure a few thousand years ago.  It was equivalent to about 1640 ft.

Also note that in some translations of various ancient Chinese literature, the translator decided to use miles in the English version because the point of the statement was not about exact units of measure, but that it was referring to a very long journey.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Carborendum

[mordorbund]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:50 PM, Jamie123 said:

The Liahona has always been a source of fascination for me. It seems to be an artifact of sorts, but it pops up from nowhere (almost like a gift from Santa), with no indication of who made it. Did God make it himself? Or was it perhaps the work of some earlier civilization? It has two spindles, one of which indicates the way to go - rather like the "cloud by day, fire by night" - but how did they know this? (There's no mention of any note being left with the device. Maybe it was in one of the messages that appeared on the Liahona.) It's not even called "the liahona" in the text - I believe that word only appears much later.

Question: what did the other spindle do? I read somewhere that it acted as an ordinary compass needle, but is this based on anything in the book?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/by-small-means-rethinking-the-liahona/

The authors of this article think the liahona may have been an astrolabe given as dowry after the two families joined through marriage.

[Carborendum]

16 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/by-small-means-rethinking-the-liahona/

The authors of this article think the liahona may have been an astrolabe given as dowry after the two families joined through marriage.

The word shoehorn comes to mind.

[zil2]

End of the week.

1 Nephi 18

v1-3 could be a pattern whereby to live life - going to the Lord often and him showing you bit by bit how to move forward.

v9:

Quote

"Boredom is therefore a vital problem for the moralist, since at least half the sins of mankind are caused by the fear of it."

--Bertrand Russell

v13-15: Are Laman and Lemuel that dense, or that stubborn?  There's a lesson for you - don't be dense, and don't be stubborn.

v16: Don't rail at God because some people are evil / wicked / dense / stubborn...

v20: Don't wait until you're about to die before reconciling yourself with God.

v23-25: Obey and prosper.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/by-small-means-rethinking-the-liahona/

The authors of this article think the liahona may have been an astrolabe given as dowry after the two families joined through marriage.

They present their argument well.  They may well be right.  Still makes me a little sad, though.

[Jamie123]

Nothing very profound to share today, though it did strike me that Nephi must have known something about shipbuilding already, otherwise how would he have known what "the manner of men" was? Even so, knowledge of the time would hardly have sufficed, as Nephi's ship would have had to have been an oceangoing vessel - not the kind of ship that hopped from port to port in the Mediterranean. Only a ship designed by God would do - though I suppose there could be a parallel with Noah's Ark (assuming that story is literal fact).

I wish we had more detail of the voyage. Presumably the "compass" mentioned was the Liahona, and they merely steered the way it pointed. We don't even know if they sailed East or West, though many of the maps I've seen show them sailing around the Cape of Good Hope, then north-west across the Atlantic and finally landing somewhere in Florida. This must have been a monstrous voyage - though it was in a ship whose design we know nothing about. Maybe it had miraculous properties!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Jamie123

[estradling75]

I hope people don't mind me dropping in and out as the mood strikes me...

The question was asked why did Laman and Lemuel go with them.  The record does not really focus on giving us explanation of Laman and Lemuel's thoughts or reasoning... only that they didn't understand the ways of God.

But I think we can connect the dots on what we do know.  Laman had the birthright as first born.  He had the right to rule and lead the family after Lehi passed.  And he clearly wanted it.  But to get it he/they had to stay with Lehi.  If they fought against Lehi's authority they would cut the connection to their own claims of authority.  They had to go to be able to claim the leadership role once Lehi passed.

Now Laman and Lemuel might not have known the things of God...  But they very much knew the story of Esau and Jacob.  Esau had the birthright and Jacob took it from him claiming God did it.  Once Nephi started claiming visions and talking to God, since they didn't believe they would have see it as a power move.  Like Grimma Wormtongue poisoning the mind of the King in Lord of the Rings.  Nephi was becoming a threat to them, and they needed to counter him  (Again without knowing God and what we do know about them this seems to be a reasonable understanding of why they acted the way they did.)

On the subject of the Liahona, Nephi tells us he made a bow to replace his broken one.  And he tells us he built the ship with Gods help.  He had no problem claiming what he did, so if he claims he didn't know, I believe he did not know.  But Laman and Lemual without faith in God probably did think Nephi created it.  Watch their complaints I believe they will use the term cunning devices.  Can you think of a more cunning device for a power grab then to be able to claim to speak for God by changing the words on it to fit what you needed to?  (Again I do to believe this is what happened... But Laman and Lemuel very well could have)

 

[zil2]

59 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Nephi must have known something about shipbuilding already, otherwise how would he have known what "the manner of men" was?

At the least, he would have to have seen the differences between his ships and whatever ships he'd encountered - perhaps he'd been as far as the Mediterranean with his Father.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Even so, knowledge of the time would hardly have sufficed, as Nephi's ship would have had to have been an oceangoing vessel - not the kind of ship that hopped from port to port in the Mediterranean.

Some have theorized that they kept to the coasts as long as possible, perhaps even stopping for supplies.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I wish we had more detail of the voyage.

I imagine it was tedious - hence the revelry...  (At the moment, Klaw is bored and threatening to revel.  Or rebel.  Or something.  I'll have to go entertain him soon...)

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Presumably the "compass" mentioned was the Liahona

Yes.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

We don't even know if they sailed East or West, though many of the maps I've seen show them sailing around the Cape of Good Hope, then north-west across the Atlantic and finally landing somewhere in Florida.

I think most folks believe they went East and landed on the west coast of South America.

[zil2]

30 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The question was asked why did Laman and Lemuel go with them.

Personally, I think they were just cowards.  Sometimes, they believed (or given no option but to believe) and so went along.  The rest of the time, they were afraid to be wrong, so they stayed.  Once they were far enough out, they had no safe way to get back.  Sure, Laman wanted the birthright and Lemuel was clearly his ally, but mostly, he was a coward, I think.

Now Klaw is threatening to slay me unless I bow to his wishes...

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

I think most folks believe they went East and landed on the west coast of South America.

I have heard that idea as well - that they crossed the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal and then the Pacific. However this theory seems to be quite common too:

I don't suppose Nephi had a clue where he was though. He was. He just went where the needle pointed him.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Jamie123

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I have heard that idea as well - that they crossed the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal and then the Pacific. However this theory seems to be quite common too:

I don't suppose Nephi had a clue where he was though. He was. He just went where the needle pointed him.

If Nephi knew where he was going surely he would not have gone to Florida.