Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Sep - 01 Oct 2023 (2 Nephi 10 - 2 Nephi 28)

[Carborendum]

19 hours ago, zil2 said:

Confusing pronouns, the plague of our day...  (Where "day" doesn't really mean a single 24-hour period...)

On reckoning of time (and other counting)...

I'd like to submit that the Middle East was still considered "Oriental" upto the 70s.  Both the Middle East and Far East were both East.  And Oriental simply means Eastern.

Given that, I'll throw a couple of interesting numerical differences out there and postulate that ancient Israelite reckoning of time was like Eastern reckoning of time.

In Korea, I was considered a 1-year old on the day I was born.  There really isn't language to say that "I was in my first year." Or at least, it would be awkward wording.

I was "a 1-yr old."  i.e. if I were to have a governmental form and there was a question: Age?  One would enter a 1 in the form.  And when it had been 366 days from my first breath, one would enter a 2 on the form.

Further, I have seven children.  If asked, I would tell people I have seven children just as in the US.  But if someone were to ask my son "How many siblings do YOU have?" he would respond "six."  If he were asked "How many children in your family?" he would respond "seven."

But in Korean & Japanese it wouldn't matter which question was asked.  The answer would be "seven" to either question.  My son would include himself in the count to either question.  That's the way they think.  It is inherent in the language and culture.  He has seven siblings.  There are seven children in his family.

So, when we consider the days that Ester prepared, or the days that Jonah was in the belly of the whale, or the days Christ was in the tomb, we need to understand that the reckoning of time or other counting was not the same as occidental cultures.  There is no logic that westerners can draw parallels to.  It is simply a different mindset.

This is how the Savior was in the tomb for three days even when so many different phrasings found in the NT cannot be reconciled in western thought.

He rose "on the third day" -- indicating less than 72 hours.

Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for "three days and three nights" indicating a full 72 hours.

The timing (mid-afternoon on Wednesday or Thursday or Friday) while rising in the morning on Sat, Sun, Mon -- it doesn't matter.  There was no way that it could have been three days and three nights in any way using the western reckoning of time.  We need to recognize that this was a different culture with a different mindset regarding the reckoning of time. 

It was "three days" because it was three days. It was "three days and three nights" because it was three days and three nights.  He rose "on the third day " because He rose on the third day.  And they all mean the same thing because they all mean the same thing.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

2 Nephi 27

v3: Don't fear the wicked - their efforts against God's people will be fruitless.

v6+: The footnotes (particularly to JS-H / Joseph Smith - History) show the fulfillment of these prophecies.

v20: God can do his own work.  When he assigns you to be the tool whereby he works, trust him and do your part, knowing he will do the rest.

v21-22: It seems Joseph was not allowed to read the sealed portion of the plates.

v23: Faith first, then the works of God in your life. See Ether 3:11-13.

You can't hide from God.  Those willing to receive will be blessed, those who persecute others and otherwise work iniquity will be cut off (like my arm that's falling asleep due to a sleeping kitten draped across it).

2 Nephi 28

I've never understood why some believe that God has stopped working through revelation and miracles. Why would He do things one way in scripture, but differently now?

Don't try to justify sin in the least!  Be humble. Repent.

v19: Sometimes bad things are to encourage repentance.

v21: Things can be temporally well and spiritually awful.

v23: Satan is called "the accuser" - IMO, when he is before the throne of God, he'll be the first to accuse those he himself deceived, "see how unworthy they are, how readily they believed lies..."

v28+: Welcome truth, even if it's painful. Remember there's more revelation to come!  Don't complain when it does.

v30+: Learn to hear God, study his word, trust him.

v32: The Lord is merciful to all who repent and come to him.  Do that!

[Vort]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, when we consider the days that Ester prepared, or the days that Jonah was in the belly of the whale, or the days Christ was in the tomb, we need to understand that the reckoning of time or other counting was not the same as occidental cultures.  There is no logic that westerners can draw parallels to.  It is simply a different mindset.

Infant boys were circumcised on the eight day—that is, at seven days old, one week from their birth. Such one-based counting appears to be the standard in all or at least most ancient societies.

[askandanswer]

 

Darkness and apostasy in Israel began to descend during Paul's time. Amonsgt the Nephites, apostasy and darkness started about 200 years after Christ. I think a more accurate description would be that in the last days darkness and apostasy begin to reduce, commencing in 1820.

2 Nephi 27

Darkness and apostasy will cover the earth in the last days

 

I read the account of 11 witnesses in the introductory pages of the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 27

Three witnesses will testify of the book

 I don't think Joseph Smith could read the sealed portion either.

2 Nephi 27

The learned man will say he cannot read the sealed book

This is true, this is happening now but it is only one side of the story. At the same time, there will also be greater righteousness than there has ever been since the days of Enoch and his city. Nephi is possibly aware of both sides of the story but for some reason he has chosen to spoke only about one side.

2 Nephi 27:1

behold, they will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations

 

To what extent can we attribute (blame?) natural disasters to God? All? Some? This verse seems to suggest that none would not be a correct answer. By ending the opportunities of so many people to repent and grow in mortality, do such events help or hinder the pursuit of gospel objectives? Certainly those who die in such events are able to continue their learning and progress, but at a much slower rate.

2 Nephi 27:2

with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire.

This sounds like a reference to the 6 day war of 1967.

2 Nephi 27:3

3 And all the nations that fight against Zion, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision;

I believe there are other verses that say something quite different, something along the lines of hte Lord pouring out His Spirit without measure the last days. The gospel is waking people up, not sending them asleep.

2 Nephi 27:5

5 For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. 

 

 

Many have accepted the prophets. In fact, in numerical terms, and perhaps also as a percentage of the global population, I think that there are more people who are accepting the prophet than has ever been the case in all of recorded history, except the first millennium. The variance between what Nephi is writing about and the reality of today makes me wonder if these prophecies actually are about today. 

2 Nephi 27:5

5 For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; 

 

 

Surely the Lord God will do nothing but revealeth His secrets unto His servants the prophets - but then sometimes He will cover those same prophets.

2 Nephi 27:5

and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.

 

 

 

[Jamie123]

I'm up to speed again now. Sorry I've not commented much lately. We were discussing dragons and satyrs before - a bit later it talks about the "cockatrice", which I always understood to be a creature something like this

It seems to get associated a lot with another creature called the basilisk, which appears in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - though there it is a very large snake. The NIV by the way translates it as " darting venomous serpent".

[zil2]

Here's my rendition.  Elsewhere in the thread they yammer on about translation and facts and other boring stuff.

 

[Jamie123]

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

Here's my rendition.  Elsewhere in the thread they yammer on about translation and facts and other boring stuff.

 

Your image doesn't come up for me 

[zil2]

9 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Your image doesn't come up for me 

That's fascinating.  Does this link work.  It's an http, rather than https, link, so perhaps your security settings won't load it.  Or perhaps the UK has rejected my website...  If so, I can always upload it here... It's a true work of art, really, spent hours and hours on it. </sarcasm>

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

That's fascinating.  Does this link work.  It's an http, rather than https, link, so perhaps your security settings won't load it.  Or perhaps the UK has rejected my website...  If so, I can always upload it here... It's a true work of art, really, spent hours and hours on it. </sarcasm>

Ah yes I see that one! Nice pic!

[mordorbund]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:01 AM, Carborendum said:

It was "three days" because it was three days. It was "three days and three nights" because it was three days and three nights.  He rose "on the third day " because He rose on the third day.  And they all mean the same thing because they all mean the same thing.

In that moment, all of Tautology Club knew they made the right choice.