Christ's Sufferings

[Still_Small_Voice]

I was just reading Bruce R. McConkie's talk in May 1985 Ensign "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane." When I read some of what was written in this talk I was astonished.

"They took him [Jesus] to Annas, to Caiaphas, to Pilate, to Herod, and back to Pilate. He was accused, cursed, and smitten. Their foul saliva ran down his face as vicious blows further weakened his pain-engulfed body. With reeds of wrath they rained blows upon his back. Blood ran down his face as a crown of thorns pierced his trembling brow."

"But above it all he was scourged, scourged with forty stripes save one, scourged with a multithonged whip into whose leather strands sharp bones and cutting metals were woven. Many died from scourging alone, but he rose from the sufferings of the scourge that he might die an ignominious death upon the cruel cross of Calvary."

I have never read anywhere in the gospels about Jesus being being beaten with reeds upon His back. Yet in the movie The Passion of the Christ it shows this. Obviously there are some things in this movie that aren't in the scriptures, but I was surprised to learn that this was a truth.

Something else I found in Elder McConkie's talk was this:

"We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane. We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him. We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death."

"We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name. We know that he lay prostrate upon the ground as the pains and agonies of an infinite burden caused him to tremble and would that he might not drink the bitter cup."

"We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen him in his ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be. As near as we can judge, these infinite agonies—this suffering beyond compare—continued for some three or four hours."

I cannot begin to comprehend how great the price of justice was that Christ paid in the Garden of Gethsemane and finished upon the cross. How could One pay the eternal price for billions of peoples sins? The atonement is something I will never understand in this life.

[Deborah]

It truly was a sacrifice beyond our comprehension. And it was a sacrifice made willingly out of love. I suppose that's why I get a little upset at some of the too-casual references to Jesus such as the bumper stickers that say "Honk for Jesus." I think that such things minimize what it was Jesus actually did for us. If we truly comprehended certainly we would all reverence him much more.

[Abraham]

I was just reading Bruce R. McConkie's talk in May 1985 Ensign "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane." When I read some of what was written in this talk I was astonished.

"They took him [Jesus] to Annas, to Caiaphas, to Pilate, to Herod, and back to Pilate. He was accused, cursed, and smitten. Their foul saliva ran down his face as vicious blows further weakened his pain-engulfed body. With reeds of wrath they rained blows upon his back. Blood ran down his face as a crown of thorns pierced his trembling brow."

"But above it all he was scourged, scourged with forty stripes save one, scourged with a multithonged whip into whose leather strands sharp bones and cutting metals were woven. Many died from scourging alone, but he rose from the sufferings of the scourge that he might die an ignominious death upon the cruel cross of Calvary."

I have never read anywhere in the gospels about Jesus being being beaten with reeds upon His back. Yet in the movie The Passion of the Christ it shows this. Obviously there are some things in this movie that aren't in the scriptures, but I was surprised to learn that this was a truth.

Something else I found in Elder McConkie's talk was this:

"We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane. We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him. We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death."

"We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name. We know that he lay prostrate upon the ground as the pains and agonies of an infinite burden caused him to tremble and would that he might not drink the bitter cup."

"We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen him in his ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be. As near as we can judge, these infinite agonies—this suffering beyond compare—continued for some three or four hours."

I cannot begin to comprehend how great the price of justice was that Christ paid in the Garden of Gethsemane and finished upon the cross. How could One pay the eternal price for billions of peoples sins? The atonement is something I will never understand in this life.

Hello,

What is sorely amazing to me is that Christ had to revisit, reexperience, and relive all the pain he suffered in Gethsemane while on the cross to punctuate and finalize the Atonement (of course finalized by the resurrection) see BRM last GC talk and Heber C. Kimball's quote of the same. Additioanlly as we know (see Alma 7:11-12) that he suffered for all afflictions (not just for the sins) of every creature (whether this means man as 'creature; or every living thing I'm not sure), nevertheless he did suffer for world's without number as we read in Nephi where he had to come to Israel 'becasue that is the only country on earth (or any earth for that matter) that would crucify him (see what happened when he appeared to the Saints in Bountiful). The Atonment delivers us, saves us (so yes we are saved) and redeems from the consequences of the Fall. We are redeemed from three deaths 1) pyhsical, 2) spiritual (separation from God, and 3) the final separation from God after judgement (see Samual's comments in Helaman 14:18, referring to the SECOND spiritual death which makes three). The Infinite Atonment means that ALL will return to God. To say that the Atonement is a reconcilation does not do the Atonement justice. I loved the quote that I have listed here before that "By grace we are saved, after all we can do) is like saying once we are healthy we then can go to the hospital. I could go on about the miralce of Grace but won't take the space here. The Atonement gives us the hope that our obedience and repentance (the two most immportant components of our aceptance of the Atonment) give evidence of our claim of the sacrifice of the Lamb. After all, our free will is all we truly have to offer on the temple altars. The world cannot commprehend it and so they come up with the elemntary concept of being saved by believing only. It always makes me laugh when the debate over faith and works come up, the Protestants say no work is ever necessary and salvation is a free gift (which ironically is very true) but you do have to do something (believe/accept/profess etc.). Their double speak is a two edged sword. That is the one work that YOU/WE have to do to be saved. If one work is good then I guess it means it does take works. Well, enough rambling. I highly recommend the book The Infinite Atonement by Tad Callister.

Happy and Fruitful New Year to all,

Abraham of the Chaldeas

[Traveler]

Hello,

What is sorely amazing to me is that Christ had to revisit, reexperience, and relive all the pain he suffered in Gethsemane while on the cross to punctuate and finalize the Atonement (of course finalized by the resurrection) see BRM last GC talk and Heber C. Kimball's quote of the same. Additioanlly as we know (see Alma 7:11-12) that he suffered for all afflictions (not just for the sins) of every creature (whether this means man as 'creature; or every living thing I'm not sure), nevertheless he did suffer for world's without number as we read in Nephi where he had to come to Israel 'becasue that is the only country on earth (or any earth for that matter) that would crucify him (see what happened when he appeared to the Saints in Bountiful). The Atonment delivers us, saves us (so yes we are saved) and redeems from the consequences of the Fall. We are redeemed from three deaths 1) pyhsical, 2) spiritual (separation from God, and 3) the final separation from God after judgement (see Samual's comments in Helaman 14:18, referring to the SECOND spiritual death which makes three). The Infinite Atonment means that ALL will return to God. To say that the Atonement is a reconcilation does not do the Atonement justice. I loved the quote that I have listed here before that "By grace we are saved, after all we can do) is like saying once we are healthy we then can go to the hospital. I could go on about the miralce of Grace but won't take the space here. The Atonement gives us the hope that our obedience and repentance (the two most immportant components of our aceptance of the Atonment) give evidence of our claim of the sacrifice of the Lamb. After all, our free will is all we truly have to offer on the temple altars. The world cannot commprehend it and so they come up with the elemntary concept of being saved by believing only. It always makes me laugh when the debate over faith and works come up, the Protestants say no work is ever necessary and salvation is a free gift (which ironically is very true) but you do have to do something (believe/accept/profess etc.). Their double speak is a two edged sword. That is the one work that YOU/WE have to do to be saved. If one work is good then I guess it means it does take works. Well, enough rambling. I highly recommend the book The Infinite Atonement by Tad Callister.

Happy and Fruitful New Year to all,

Abraham of the Chaldeas

Very nice post - may I add two thoughts. The first is concerning sacrifice. G-d (including Jesus) have demonstrated sacrifice in all that is done by covenant for man - I submit the even the creation is example of the great sacrifice of G-d.

Second: is that the resurrection is often left out of discussions concerning the atonement. Sometimes when we try to learn of things by breaking down things into parts we leave out important aspects. I submit that the atonement was not completed until the resurrection finalized the defeat of death and hell – providing the “capstone” to the beautiful gift of G-d’s sacrifice.

I believe it is most important in this day and age to testify to the resurrection of flesh and bones – that occupy space and take upon incorruptibly and immortality. The Resurrected L-rd – Jesus the Christ is a being of resurrected flesh and bones and is not dead.

The Traveler

[Abraham]

Very nice post - may I add two thoughts. The first is concerning sacrifice. G-d (including Jesus) have demonstrated sacrifice in all that is done by covenant for man - I submit the even the creation is example of the great sacrifice of G-d.

Second: is that the resurrection is often left out of discussions concerning the atonement. Sometimes when we try to learn of things by breaking down things into parts we leave out important aspects. I submit that the atonement was not completed until the resurrection finalized the defeat of death and hell – providing the “capstone” to the beautiful gift of G-d’s sacrifice.

I believe it is most important in this day and age to testify to the resurrection of flesh and bones – that occupy space and take upon incorruptibly and immortality. The Resurrected L-rd – Jesus the Christ is a being of resurrected flesh and bones and is not dead.

The Traveler

As always, thank you for your poignant thoughts. In the beginning of my post I parenthetically mentioned that the Atonement was finalized by the resurrections but did not mean to trivialize it, which I am sure you realize. I agree with you. Here is a funny story.

My 16 year-old son came to me and said, "Isn't it interesting that in the Gospel, one has to comprehend a concept or principle before we can accept it?" I said, "That is not necessarily so." He said, "Can you give me an example?" I replied, "Well, take for example the Atonement. We accept it but do not fully, or hardly partially understand it." My son agreed, then we went our separate ways. The next day, after sleeping on it, my son came to me and said, "I got it!" I did not know what he meant. I said, "Got what?" He said, " I now understand and comprehend the Atonement - so now I can accept it." I am glad he spent an entire night contmeplating the Atonement. Oh, the wisdom of youth. True story. Hee Hee.

I hope 2008 is a great year for all of us including the the Master.

Warm regards,

Abraham

[Traveler]

As always, thank you for your poignant thoughts. In the beginning of my post I parenthetically mentioned that the Atonement was finalized by the resurrections but did not mean to trivialize it, which I am sure you realize. I agree with you. Here is a funny story.

My 16 year-old son came to me and said, "Isn't it interesting that in the Gospel, one has to comprehend a concept or principle before we can accept it?" I said, "That is not necessarily so." He said, "Can you give me an example?" I replied, "Well, take for example the Atonement. We accept it but do not fully, or hardly partially understand it." My son agreed, then we went our separate ways. The next day, after sleeping on it, my son came to me and said, "I got it!" I did not know what he meant. I said, "Got what?" He said, " I now understand and comprehend the Atonement - so now I can accept it." I am glad he spent an entire night contmeplating the Atonement. Oh, the wisdom of youth. True story. Hee Hee.

I hope 2008 is a great year for all of us including the the Master.

Warm regards,

Abraham

Thank you for your insight. Sometime ago I though I would put together a little article on the plan of salvation – summarizing all the important points and including comprehensive list of associated scriptures to the specific points. I though I would start with the G-dhead and of course our “Father in Heaven”. I realized that there are a total of three scriptures directly associated to our “Father in Heaven” and that we know no more of our relationship to our “Father” than our “Mother”.

We are truly a fallen race - without knowledge but some possibilities with faith.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

Are we certain this is not a metaphor for great suffering, since not even the Ebola virus and hemorrhagic fever could cause such massive cellular disruption? Additionally, the Jews had an aversion for blood and would have certainly noticed Jesus being covered head to toe in blood - yet this was not evidenced in any other gospel.

[Still_Small_Voice]

An angel appeared and strengthened Jesus while in Gethsemane. Perhaps the angel also took care of the blood that would have stained Christ's raiment.

The recorded testimonies (gospels) are also far from being a perfect record. Christ was scourged and there is no mention in the New Testament of His blood staining His raiment as they lead Him out to be crucified. Certainly Jesus was bleeding after being whipped by a scourge 39 times.

[Guest Iggy]

Are we certain this is not a metaphor for great suffering, since not even the Ebola virus and hemorrhagic fever could cause such massive cellular disruption? Additionally, the Jews had an aversion for blood and would have certainly noticed Jesus being covered head to toe in blood - yet this was not evidenced in any other gospel.

Where do you get that the Jews had an aversion for blood?

Roman scourge

The Romans would, according to custom, scourge a condemned criminal before he was put to death. The Roman scourge, also called the "flagrum" or "flagellum" was a short whip made of two or three leather (ox-hide) thongs or ropes connected to a handle as in the sketch above. The leather thongs were knotted with a number of small pieces of metal, usually zinc and iron, attached at various intervals. Scourging would quickly remove the skin. According to history the punishment of a slave was particularly dreadful. The leather was knotted with bones, or heavy indented pieces of bronze.

Sometimes the Roman scourge contained a hook at the end and was given the terrifying name "scorpion." The criminal was made to stoop which would make deeper lashes from the shoulders to the waist. According to Jewish law (discipline of the synagogue) the number of stripes was forty less one (Deut. 25:3) and the rabbis reckoned 168 actions to be punished by scourging before the judges. Nevertheless, scourging among the Romans was a more severe form of punishment and there was no legal limit to the number of blows, as with the Jews. Deep lacerations, torn flesh, exposed muscles and excessive bleeding would leave the criminal "half-dead." Death was often the result of this cruel form of punishment though it was necessary to keep the criminal alive to be brought to public subjugation on the cross. The Centurion in charge would order the "lictors" to halt the flogging when the criminal was near death.

Bold is by me.

[Moksha]

Where do you get that the Jews had an aversion for blood?

I think they considered something covered with blood to be unclean.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Are we certain this is not a metaphor for great suffering, since not even the Ebola virus and hemorrhagic fever could cause such massive cellular disruption? Additionally, the Jews had an aversion for blood and would have certainly noticed Jesus being covered head to toe in blood - yet this was not evidenced in any other gospel.

Modern revelation also leaves no doubt about Jesus' sufferings in Gethsemane:

Mosiah chapter 3

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

Anyone can correct me if I am wrong. I find it interesting also that it is only recorded twice in the New Testament Gospels about Christ shedding blood:

John chapter 19

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Luke chapter 22

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

[CrimsonKairos]

Keep in mind that the word "gout" literally means "drop."

So all Elder McConkie was saying was that Christ bled from every pore.

I don't think Christ's capillaries burst because he was being forced to swallow the cumulative pain of everyone who ever lived, now lives or will yet to live on this or any planet.

D&C 19:20 and D&C 133:50 are pretty clear about what caused Christ to bleed in Gethsemane...spiritual withdrawal of the Father and Spirit in preparation for the crucifixion.

[Moksha]

Luke chapter 22

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

This is a metaphor for profuse sweating.

[CrimsonKairos]

I assume you haven't read the JST for that verse, or Mosiah 3:7?

[a-train]

Additionally, the Jews had an aversion for blood and would have certainly noticed Jesus being covered head to toe in blood - yet this was not evidenced in any other gospel.

'Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.' (John 18:4-6)

Why did the fear? What caused them to go backward and fall to the ground? Perhaps the image of a man standing in the dim light of torches and lanterns drenched in blood? Now don't let me suggest anything not found in the scriptures. I'll stop.

-a-train

[Moksha]

Now don't let me suggest anything not found in the scriptures. I'll stop.

-a-train

Okay

Where are the smilies???

[CrimsonKairos]

That was more directed at me, Moksha, since I'm usually so anal about that kinda' stuff. Actually, I have no problem speculating, as long as someone doesn't try to establish it as doctrine.

[MormonGirl02]

This is a metaphor for profuse sweating.

Actually, it could be that Jesus really did sweat blood. Hematohidrosis (the sweating of blood) is a real medical condition.

See here:

Hematohidrosis - definition of Hematohidrosis in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

And here:

Hematohidrosis - encyclopedia article about Hematohidrosis.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Some people aren't obviously aren't reading the whole post. Read post 11. Modern scripture and the prophets have taught that Christ sweat blood in Gethsemane. It is official church doctrine.

It's also written in the following canonized scriptures:

Luke 22:44

Doctrine & Covenants 19:16-19

Mosiah 3:7