Book of Mormon Reading Group: 09 Oct - 15 Oct 2023 (Words of Mormon 1 - Mosiah 13)

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

v21: Enemies don't have to be people.  Enemies can be temptations, sin, weakness, etc.. 

I always loved the old hymn When a Knight Won His Spurs.

"Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed, 'gainst the dragons of anger, the ogres of greed".

Hardly anyone ever sings (or even likes talking about) that hymn nowadays. Too warlike. (Onward Christian Soldiers has gone the same way too. Such a shame. I like Onward Christian Soldiers.)

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

21 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Or maybe the Nephites used all the ziff to extinction (so to speak) and modern man is just out of luck...

Or maybe they mined too deep for it and awoke the Balrog!

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Onward Christian Soldiers

That one's still in our hymnal and is sung now and then.  This is the first I've heard of the other - probably because, ya know, American... No knights here...  (Unless you count Knight Rider, but we're all trying to pretend that never happened.)

[Jamie123]

3 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Unless you count Knight Rider, but we're all trying to pretend that never happened.

Really? I used to like watching Knight Rider.

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

That one's still in our hymnal

I remember when it was taken out of ours. I remember the vicar gushing over how the new hymnal had changed it to "Onward Christian Pilgrims" and how nice it was that the nasty warlike references were being removed. I asked him afterwards if all the "warlike references" were going to be removed from the Bible too. He didn't have a good answer to that.

[Jamie123]

29 minutes ago, zil2 said:

That one's still in our hymnal and is sung now and then. 

 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Really? I used to like watching Knight Rider.

So did I, as a teenager.  Now I can't bear 60 seconds of it.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

 

Personally, I think every ward should have a brass and percussion section just for hymns like this - and bagpipes for when we sing "Praise to the Man" (apparently there is no YT version with bagpipes - just a snare drum ).

Oh, and we have "Battle Hymn of the Republic" in our hymnal, too.  (But not "Dixie's Land", so, I guess that says something about the civil war...  Or maybe just about the lyrics of the two songs... I wonder if the Saints in the SE US ever sing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" (without anyone getting hit).)

Edited October 14, 2023 by zil2

[askandanswer]

So the false prophets kept up the outward appearance of righteousness.

Mosiah 12

and pretend to keep the law of Moses

 

It's verses like this that suggest that God is vengeful. If He is not vengeful there must be some other reason for verses like this. Probably that reason has something to do with the idea that chastening is also a sign of love. God loved them enough to chasten them, knowing that His chastening would bring them back to Him.

The fact that these things happened, and the means by which they happened, might be evidence that God is involved in the decisions and doing of men to a greater degree than is usually believed. Was God behind the desires of this people to make war with the Lamanites, and the decision of the Lamanites to bind and smite them as recorded in later chapters? Verse 5 suggests that He was.

Mosiah 12:1

, I will visit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations.

 

So he came in disguise but used his own name. That sounds a bit odd.

Mosiah 12:1

1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, 

 

We see that most of these things happened to this people within the next ten chapters. Interestingly, they happened to those who had survived three wars and who had been greatly humbled by those wars. Much of the being smitten and in bondage happened to a group of people who had already returned to God.

Mosiah 12:2

2  Thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that this generation, because of their iniquities, shall be brought into bondage, and shall be smitten on the cheek; yea, and shall be driven by men, and shall be slain; and the vultures of the air, and the dogs, yea, and the wild beasts, shall devour their flesh

 

I suspect that the world today is far more wicked than were the people of King Noah but the prophet warnings, while present, do not seem to be as loud, or as one-sided as Abinadi's warnings. I can't remember if I have ever heard a prophet or apostle in my life time speak so explicitly about bad things to come as Abinadi did even though I suspect the levels of wickedness today are much greater.

 

Mosiah 12:2 Yea, wo be unto this generation! And the Lord said unto me: Stretch forth thy hand and prophesy, saying: Thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that this generation, because of their iniquities, shall be brought into bondage, and shall be smitten on the cheek; yea, and shall be driven by men, and shall be slain; and the vultures of the air, and the dogs, yea, and the wild beasts, shall devour their flesh.

 

 

The record of this particular group of people says nothing about famine or pestilence and that after the wars they prayed a great deal for deliverance, rather than howled. See Mosiah 21:14

Mosiah 12:4

4 And it shall come to pass that I will smite this my people with sore afflictions, yea, with famine and with pestilence; and I will cause that they shall howl all the day long.

 

 

[Vort]

It's amazing to me how disculpatory the Book of Mormon is toward the Lamanites. It's even more amazing to me how the Nephites, at least when they were righteous, seemed to try to spare the Lamanites and didn't blame them for their extreme wickedness.

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

disculpatory

Are you trying to be @Just_A_Guy now!?  Disculpatory.  :SMH:

[zil2]

Next week's thread (for Monday, aka tomorrow for @askandanswer) is here:

 

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Are you trying to be @Just_A_Guy now!?  Disculpatory.  :SMH:

I wasn't playing lawyer or trying to impress anyone. Just seemed like the right word.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I wasn't playing lawyer or trying to impress anyone. Just seemed like the right word.

  Just teasing, dude, just teasing.

Though when I went to the dictionary to confirm I knew what this word meant, the definition was, and I quote: "exculpatory" - and google's answer was "Did you mean: define exculpatory"   Though to be honest, I think disculpatory fits better - even if Firefox can't figure out that it's a word! :/

[zil2]

And just to clarify, I wasn't accusing @Just_A_Guy of trying to sound impressive, though, he often sounds impressive.    I wasn't even accusing you of trying to sound like a lawyer (though in hindsight, I should have!) - it's just that JAG occasionally uses big, rarely-used words.   Think of it as a compliment in the form of a poorly executed joke.

[Vort]

35 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Think of it as a compliment in the form of a poorly executed joke.

Nothing wrong with your joke.

[Jamie123]

12 hours ago, Vort said:

I wasn't playing lawyer or trying to impress anyone. Just seemed like the right word.

I would have pronounced it DIS-cul-PA-tory. But it's still a perfectly cromulant word.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I would have pronounced it DIS-cul-PA-tory.

Brits are always stressing the wrong things......

[Jamie123]

22 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Brits are always stressing the wrong things......

Or it could be just me... It's not a word I hear spoken very often so don't assume my way is the British way.

By the way, Britain has as many regional dialects as the USA. A lot of Americans will, on meeting a Brit who doesn't sound like either the Queen* or Paul McCartney, assume he's from Australia. I grew up in Leicester, and though I never quite mastered the accent, I can usually recognize it:

Leicestonian: "Ey up! Av come frum Ow-be an stopped at the Shew station on me way te Lest-oh." (The syllables "be" and "oh" are hard - like in "better" and "hotter".)

Translation: "Hey up! (Hello). I've come from Oadby and stopped at the Shell** station on my way to Leicester."

My sister in law has a very strong Leicestonian accent, and she was always being mistaken for an Australian.

*I should say "the King" now, but I'm still not used to having a king.

**The "L" sound nearly always changes to a "W" when it's in the middle or at the end of a word. I acquired this somewhat - for example I'd sometimes catch myself saying "uncuw" instead of "uncle". 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

20 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

By the way, Britain has as many regional dialects as the USA. A lot of Americans will, on meeting a Brit who doesn't sound like either the Queen* or Paul McCartney, assume he's from Australia.

  (I was teasing - laboratory in US English (LABruhtory), but laboratory in British English (luhBORatree.)

I once heard Patrick Stewart speaking the way he did growing up - whatever language it was, it sure wasn't English!   Could not understand a single syllable.

[Jamie123]

37 minutes ago, zil2 said:

  (I was teasing - laboratory in US English (LABruhtory), but laboratory in British English (luhBORatree.)

It's fine I know you are teasing! 😁 To be honest I find it hard to differentiate between US accents. I can usually recognize a Southern accent from a Northern one - though I find it harder to tell Northern USA from Canadian. There are differences like ou>oo ( though I have  met Canadians who say "ou" the same as me). Even when the "oo" is there, I rarely notice unless I'm listening out for it. The overall North American "twang" drowns it out. I suppose I recognize Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx etc. - though mostly thanks to Bugs Bunny. I have always found the accents of southern England (well to the west of London) somewhat similar to American. Some of my cousins grew up in Hampshire, and as a kid I always thought they sounded American. I have never confused any American accent with Australian though.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Jamie123

[Just_A_Guy]

14 hours ago, zil2 said:

  Just teasing, dude, just teasing.

Though when I went to the dictionary to confirm I knew what this word meant, the definition was, and I quote: "exculpatory" - and google's answer was "Did you mean: define exculpatory"   Though to be honest, I think disculpatory fits better - even if Firefox can't figure out that it's a word! 😕

In Portuguese, “disculpe” means “excuse me”.  So I got the gist. 😉

I wonder if the BoM prophets were sort of “over-compensating” at times; or at least knowingly bucking a broader Nephite social trend.  There are hints in the BoM text that at times hoi polloi Nephites had quite a bit of animus towards the Lamanites (Jacob 3:9; Mosiah 9:1).

Edited October 15, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

Mosiah 12

I think we see two principles in this story (Abinadi's teachings): First, the Lord will not destroy you without giving you ample time to repent.  (So, repent early and often.)  Second, the Lord will send a prophet even if He knows that only one person (Alma, in this case) will be converted by the prophet's words.  (I think even without the first principle, the Lord would have sent Abinadi just for Alma.)  To extend this: when needed, the Lord will do things just for you; and what the Lord does for other reasons can also be for you.  (And to take it even further, if you will open your heart to the Spirit, the Spirit can enable you to see or hear or learn things that your "natural man" would never learn, regardless of whatever other reasons may exist for the things you see or hear.)

v9-12: It seems to me these people are taking glee in the thought of Abinadi being punished by the king.  Lesson in reverse: even if you have to be part of bringing someone to true justice, don't take glee in the thought of their destruction.  It's just a sad thing all around.

v15: Again with pride in one's own invincibility.  Don't make this mistake.  "There but for the grace of God..."

Mosiah 13

v10 & v31: The Lord often works by "types and shadows".  We would do well to learn to recognize them and understand their meanings.

v32: You must also not harden your heart.  I take this to mean you must be humble, willing to accept correction.

v29: "...a very strict law..." Funny story (probably told it before, but why not again).  When my brothers and I were teenagers, we lived in upstate New York and there was one shower / tub in the house.  Therefore, to get ready for school (and Dad for work) required whoever was first to start awfully early in the morning.  This led to squabbling over who had to get up first.  So Mom and Dad created a rotating schedule so we'd take turns being the first to get up.  They called this the "Law of Moses Shower Schedule".  It was printed and hung on the bulletin board next to the phone in the kitchen.

One summer we drove to Utah to see family and Mom and Dad got a single adult from the ward to house and pet sit.  Said single adult had a non-member friend over for dinner one night.  This friend looked around the kitchen while dinner was being prepared and came across the "Law of Moses Shower Schedule".  Friend then interrogated the single adult as to what bizarre things Mormons did in the shower.

 

Meanwhile, the bird feeder I installed on Friday has sprouted birds as of this morning!   Klaw has been enjoying watching the feathery show out the window!  Hooray.  Hopefully no more, "Stop typing, Meowmy!" during scripture study...  But apparently I need to clean the windows...

[Carborendum]

On 10/14/2023 at 3:20 PM, Jamie123 said:

I never heard of "ziff" before.

It was most likely aluminum... or as you Brits call it aluminium.

The word "ziff" comes from root which appear to mean "shiny metal."  Why would any metal have such a name?  Because it was highly reflective and maintained its luster even in oxidizing environments.

In the list found in the BoM, they tend to descend in order of value.  So, platinum is out due to value, density, and melting point.  Tungsten for density and melting point as well.

Chromium and titanium have melting temperatures which would be too high compared to copper and iron.  They most likely would not have had the technology to refine the metal or melt, soften, or shape it.  It would have been useless.  And the sources of chromium & titanium in the Americas is not that great.

Aluminum would be the most likely candidate.  And we have abundant bauxite mines in the Americas.

Additionally, aluminum passivates, keeping a shiny surface layer in most conditions.

On 10/14/2023 at 3:25 PM, zil2 said:

My theory: Joseph Smith (or the people of his time) had no word for whatever this material was, so rather than giving him a translation for what 21st century humans call this stuff, the Lord just gave Joseph a transliteration of the word. 

Quite right.

Aluminum had just barely named in 1808 - 1812.  Reports on dates differ.  IIRC, it was because it was originally named aluminium.  But a few years later it was renamed to aluminum.  That's why the Brits and Aussies pronounce it differently.  They didn't keep up with the times. 

It wasn't able to be refined in its pure metal form until 1827.  And then it wasn't cheap.  Initially, pure aluminum was more precious than gold.

Throughout the 1800s the process of refining & smelting was improved until we achieved the process which was the basis of our current technology today.  And it became quite inexpensive for such a versatile metal.

It was long after the translation of the BoM before the word aluminum was commonly known by anyone other than chemists.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

bauxite