Book of Mormon Reading Group: 30 Oct - 05 Nov 2023 (Alma 13 - Alma 25)

[zil2]

Really summarized summary of 1-16:

Nehor

Amlicites mark themselves and join the Lamanites

Alma gives up the judgement seat to preach full time

People of Ammonihah earn their destruction; Zeezrom and Amulek

Adventures of the sons of Mosiah

[Jamie123]

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Really summarized summary of 1-16:

Nehor

Amlicites mark themselves and join the Lamanites

Alma gives up the judgement seat to preach full time

People of Ammonihah earn their destruction; Zeezrom and Amulek

Adventures of the sons of Mosiah

Perhaps we ought to slide that last item back since its happening concurrently with events in Zarahemla.

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Perhaps we ought to slide that last item back since its happening concurrently with events in Zarahemla.

Yes, true enough - we need another column!

Meanwhile, do you suppose the folks who choose images to include with the Book of Mormon will consider my drawing of Ammon watering king Lamoni's sheep?

Edited November 1, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

17 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Yes, true enough - we need another column!

Meanwhile, do you suppose the folks who choose images to include with the Book of Mormon will consider my drawing of Ammon watering king Lamoni's sheep?

Do you have 3 different fountain pens one for each colour? Or do you wash it out between colours? Or are you actually using a tablet?

I found my old fountain pen today (the one that used to leak all over my fingers) and I washed it out with boiling water to "deep-clean" it. Stupid idea - it melted. So lesson of the day: don't clean your pen with boiling water.

[Vort]

37 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Mosiah 27:34:

Quote

34 And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah.

...normally, sons seem to be listed by birth order, so I'm guessing Ammon was older.  If not, his chiefness in their ministry would have reflected his progress in repenting and turning to the Lord, I suppose.

My guess is that Mosiah 29:2-3, the people wanted Aaron to be their king rather than Ammon either because they knew already that Ammon wouldn't (he'd been vocal about it) or because they just liked Aaron better or thought he would be a better king.  Perhaps Ammon having refused is why king Mosiah asked the people what they wanted him to do, and then they chose son #2...

I, in contrast, tend to think that Aaron was indeed the oldest, which is why the people wanted to choose him to be their king. But Ammon apparently had the aggressiveness and/or charisma and/or leadership qualities and/or whatever else that he just sort of naturally took charge of situations.

35 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

That was the impression I got too - though the fact that they still call it "the Land of Nephi" shows they had long memories!

P.S. Though now I think about it, many places in the US are named after the native people who once lived there: Manhattan, Utah, Arkansas, Minnisota, Dakota...

FWIW, my own opinion is that the Nephites looked at the "land of Nephi" in historic terms. Sure, it was Lamanite territory, but for them is was "the land of our fathers' first inheritance". That Nephites no longer lived there didn't lessen the area's historical and religious importance to them.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Yes, true enough - we need another column!

Meanwhile, do you suppose the folks who choose images to include with the Book of Mormon will consider my drawing of Ammon watering king Lamoni's sheep?

A perhaps pedantic observation, but I don't believe the account of Ammon mentions sheep. It refers to the king's "flocks". Large ground birds, especially turkeys, are native to the Americas, so more than one reader has wondered if these flocks were not in fact avian in nature.

Not meant as a correction, just as a by-the-way.

[zil2]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

A perhaps pedantic observation, but I don't believe the account of Ammon mentions sheep. It refers to the king's "flocks". Large ground birds, especially turkeys, are native to the Americas, so more than one reader has wondered if these flocks were not in fact avian in nature.

Not meant as a correction, just as a by-the-way.

Dang!  I missed my chance to draw a flock of llamas being watered!  (You're nuts if you think I'm going to try drawing turkeys...)

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Do you have 3 different fountain pens one for each colour? Or do you wash it out between colours? Or are you actually using a tablet?

At the moment, I have 6 fountain pens inked (that's unusual), with 5 different inks¹ (7 and 6 if you count the disposable fountain pen, which I don't usually).  I do clean pens between colors (otherwise you get the colors mixing together and depending on the inks, there can be negative chemical reactions).

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I found my old fountain pen today (the one that used to leak all over my fingers) and I washed it out with boiling water to "deep-clean" it. Stupid idea - it melted. So lesson of the day: don't clean your pen with boiling water.

Erm, yeah, even if the pen's body were metal, the feed (click here for a Fountain Pen Anatomy page) would either be plastic or ebonite, and boiling water will ruin either.  The good news is that if it leaked all over your fingers, in all likelihood the section was cracked, and cleaning it wouldn't have fixed that.

As long as ink hasn't dried in the pen, plain water is almost always enough to clean ink from a pen.  For difficult cleanings, there are various tips and tricks which I'm happy to share with anyone who needs them, but I won't bore you with them here.

¹If you really want to know, keep reading...

I own 49 fountain pens (though 23 are ones that I would give away if I found the right person to give them to, 4 of the remaining are basically spares, and 1 of the remaining is in the process of breaking ).  I have 254 inks, most of these are samples of 2mL or less.  And the vast majority were gifted to me by fellow fountain pen users (with the intent that I review the samples they send me).

I review fountain pen ink with a Japanese extra fine (EF) nib (the exact same nib and feed every time)- these are the finest EF nibs (nib sizes aren't standardized, but Japanese nibs tend to be finer than others with the same size designation).  I do this because I used to use Japanese EF nibs almost exclusively and it turns out most ink reviews don't cover that fine a nib and once the line is that fine, the ink can appear very different from when it comes out of a larger nib.  So I ended up with inks that didn't look anything like I expected.  My reviews are an effort to fill the gap.

Usually, I review samples, so when I'm done with the review, any extra ink goes back in the sample vial (we use laboratory sample vials for this).  But three of my recent reviews have been from cartridges of ink, and there's nowhere for the left over ink to go but into another pen or down the drain (so I can clean the review pen and move on to the next ink).  Said cartridges held a lot of ink, so I have three pens inked with left-over review ink.  I usually try not to have more than 4 pens inked at a time.

Now you know.  (And in the fountain pen world, the above numbers aren't at all unusual, though I probably have more inks than most people.)

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

, yeah, even if the pen's body were metal, the feed (click here for a Fountain Pen Anatomy page) would either be plastic or ebonite, and boiling water will ruin either.  The good news is that if it leaked all over your fingers, in all likelihood the section was cracked, and cleaning it wouldn't have fixed that.

Yes, it was only a cheap plastic pen anyway. I had a vague idea that if I could get all the dried congealed ink out of it I could "start again". I had previously tried soaking it in cold water, but that couldnt seem to get all the ink out. I should probably have tried warm water before going straight for hot.

[zil2]

18 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Yes, it was only a cheap plastic pen anyway. I had a vague idea that if I could get all the dried congealed ink out of it I could "start again". I had previously tried soaking it in cold water, but that couldnt seem to get all the ink out. I should probably have tried warm water before going straight for hot.

1 part ammonia + 10 parts water + a drop of liquid dish soap.   Ammonia does a serious number on ink.  (But I wouldn't soak metal for very long in ammonia.)

The good news is that you're on the same island as CultPens.com.     And it appears they're having a Fountain Pen Day sale!  (ETA: Happy to answer pre-purchase questions so you don't waste your money.)

Edited November 2, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

1 part ammonia + 10 parts water + a drop of liquid dish soap.   Ammonia does a serious number on ink.  (But I wouldn't soak metal for very long in ammonia.)

The good news is that you're on the same island as CultPens.com.     And it appears they're having a Fountain Pen Day sale!  (ETA: Happy to answer pre-purchase questions so you don't waste your money.)

Wow! Who knew you could pay £955 on a pen?

P.S. make that £2,500!

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

Chapter 19: At last! We have 2 more significant female characters: the queen (though I don't think we know her name) and the servant woman Abish! (A pity we don't have an account of what happened to her dad - though maybe that comes later?)

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jamie123
Removing double negative

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

though maybe that comes later?

Alas, no.  We get no more of their story.

[zil2]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Wow! Who knew you could pay £955 on a pen?

P.S. make that £2,500!

There are pens far more expensive - for various reasons, all of them absurd, but no more absurd than paying for something Elvis once owned, or for any other bit of bling.  There are some, like the Japanese maki-e pens that are true works of art where you're paying for the time and materials as well as the skill of the maki-e artist.  But from what I've seen, most of the really expensive pens ($1000+) just appeal to the "I must have everything related to the Beatles" or "ooo, shiny" instincts of some people with more money than sense.  Once you pass about $350, you're no longer paying for better quality or function, you're paying for looks or prestige or some other thing.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Chapter 19: At last! We have 2 more significant female characters: the queen (though I don't think we know her name) and the servant woman Abish! (A pity we don't have an account of what happened to her dad - though maybe that comes later?)

It seems (And Alma the Younger would have also had this occur earlier in the Book of Mormon), that upon having the Spirit testify to them, people tend to fall into a coma like state.  Has anyone ever had anyone in this modern era fall into a coma like state upon having the "shock" of conversion fall upon them?

I have a grandkid or two I'd wish would have this conversion come upon them, that they turn from the world like they have and come back to the Church.

[zil2]

Alma 18

v2, 9-11, 17 are interesting just in learning about Lamanite culture - bravery, physical strength, competence, integrity, and hard work (and God's protection) are sufficient to be considered "more than a man".  Lamoni knows he ought not to murder his servants, yet isn't about to stop short of "the Great Spirit" coming to punish him....  Just based on modern news reports, I expect there are sub-cultures around the world, people who grow up in poverty caused by a culture of crime, who would think the same...  Those of us who grew up learning virtues similar to those exemplified by Ammon ought to be grateful for our upbringing.

v5: The mutation of what Laman, Lemuel, and the sons of Ishmael had learned in their youth is also interesting.  (And ah, the complete lack of logic: "whatsoever they did was right" but "fear lest he had done wrong"...)

v22+: @Jamie123, this example of Ammon teaching Lamoni is often used in the Church as an example of how to find common ground and work toward understanding.

v35: If we want the guidance of the Spirit, we must have faith in God and a desire to do his will.

Alma 19

v6: The more we believe, the more light we are able to receive.

v12-13: The king's words are interesting.  It's always possible that he tells his wife she's blessed just because Christ will come and redeem all people, but the wording of v13 almost makes it seem like he saying she's blessed because Christ will be born of a woman, as if that fact somehow blesses all women...  Or maybe while unconscious he learned about her faith.  I dunno.  Just interesting wording / exchange here.

v18-28: The exchange seems all too real, exactly the sort of conflicting speculation you'd expect.

v29+: When converted, you share your testimony.

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

It seems (And Alma the Younger would have also had this occur earlier in the Book of Mormon), that upon having the Spirit testify to them, people tend to fall into a coma like state.  Has anyone ever had anyone in this modern era fall into a coma like state upon having the "shock" of conversion fall upon them?

I'm sure you'll hear stories about similar things amongst the charismatic churches. There are tales of people being "slain in the spirit", which I believe is a form of fainting - I'm not certain - or flipping about on the floor like "drowning" fish. I suspect a lot of it is hyperbole* - like stories of gold raining down from heaven.

*See how clever I am? I used the word correctly, and I even know how it's pronounced! Do I get a gold star? 😆

[askandanswer]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:05 AM, Jamie123 said:

You could say he "disarmed" the Lamanites! *laughs like a drain at his own joke*

I couldn't read this part without thinking of something else:

 

I played this clip in one of my lectures a few months back. The lecture was on culturally safe care and I used it to illustrate the point that people feel and react to pain in different ways. 

[askandanswer]

No mention of the resurrection or repentance here.

Alma 18

King Lamoni supposes that Ammon is the Great Spirit—Ammon teaches the king about the Creation, God’s dealings with men, and the redemption that comes through Christ

 

Sounds very similar to what happened to Lamoni's father. And to Alma the Younger and to Saul and to Zeezrom. These experiences may provide support for the conclusion that intense spiritual experiences can have a physical impact. If that turned out to be a supported fact I wander if that would then help to support any conclusions about the relationship between the physical and the spiritual, or between the spirit and the body? It sometimes seems to be the case that when we give more preference to wants/needs of the body, the influence of the spirit declines, and when there is an intense spiritual experience, the ability/functionality of the body declines. One example of this is fasting, where there is thought to be a close correlation between denying the body to feed the spirit.

 

Lamoni believes and falls to the earth as if dead. 

 

 

Is this indicative of a belief in some sort of divine justice and of a moral code in which some things were right and some were wrong? And does it indicate a formalised system of religious instruction being carried out across generations?

Alma 18:2

 Behold, is not this the Great Spirit who doth send such great punishments upon this people, because of their murders?

 

So they knew that Ammon was not the Great Spirit and they believed that he was not a man. It sounds like they didn't have a clear idea of what their Great Spirit could do, or know of any powers that the Great Spirit had to protect a person.

And now, O king, we do not believe that a man has such great power, for we know he cannot be slain.

 

 

In this instance, the Lamanite understanding of who or what their Great Spirt was sounds pretty thin and undeveloped.

Alma 18:4

Now I know that it is the Great Spirit; and he has come down at this time to preserve your lives,

 

I guess if this is indicative of the kings attitudes towards his subjects - that he was willing to kill them because they stole his sheep - it might help to explain why they were willing to steal his sheep. It seemed like neither the king nor his people had a high regard for each other.

 

4  Now I know that it is the Great Spirit; and he has come down at this time to preserve your lives, that I might not slay you as I did your brethren. '

 

 

Its interesting that one of the early corruptions of the truth in the early days of Christianity was the nature of God and the idea that He is a spirit. It seems like the same thing, and probably from the same source, happened to the Lamanites.

Now this is the Great Spirit of whom our fathers have spoken.

 

Their religious beliefs, such as they were, do not seem to have had much of an impact on their behaviour.

Alma 18:5

Notwithstanding they believed in a Great Spirit, they supposed that whatsoever they did was right; 

 

 

It seems to be unwise to keep bringing your flocks to a place where it was known that they could be scattered and stolen,

Alma 18:7

Now it was the practice of these Lamanites to stand by the waters of Sebus to scatter the flocks of the people, that thereby they might drive away many that were scattered unto their own land, 

 

you'd think that after it had happened the first few times, they would have found a new way, or a new place, of watering the king's sheep. And if there was no new way, you think they would have taken an armed escort with them. Before Ammon it sounds like being assigned to be the shephards of the king's flocks was like sending lambs to the slaughter, but it was the shephards, and not the sheep, who were slaughtered.

Alma 18:6

For he had slain many of them because their brethren had scattered their flocks at the place of water; 

 

The normality of Ammon's behaviour here, in contrast to his previous abnormal behaviour of killing 7 people in defence of the king's flocks, coupled with his comments in verse 17 create the impression that Ammon feels he hasn't done anything unusual or particularly note-worthy. If that was the case it would raise some questions about the nature of Nephite society.

Alma 18:9

9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. 

 

Isn't this just standard behaviour for a servant? If the king is suprised at what should have been ordinary behaviour by a servant he must have had a bad bunch of servants.

It seems as if the king here is confusing obedience with faithfulness.

Alma 18:10

10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them.

 

 

The king seems to be quick to come to conclusions on the basis of limited information. Does he not even consider the possibility that Ammon might have been sent by the Great Spirit? This is an undesirable trait in a national political leader.

Alma 18:11

11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, 

 

 

Not only does the king appear to be hasty in his conclusions but he also seems to lack courage.

Alma 18:11

11  I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.

 

 

 

 

[Carborendum]

On 11/1/2023 at 6:39 PM, zil2 said:

Dang!  I missed my chance to draw a flock of llamas being watered!  (You're nuts if you think I'm going to try drawing turkeys...)

Better late than never.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Better late than never.

[Jamie123]

21 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Did you know that llamas and alpacas belong to the camel family?

[zil2]

30 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Did you know that llamas and alpacas belong to the camel family?

[Jamie123]

30 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Did you know that llamas and alpacas belong to the camel family?

I was just looking into whether or not you can breed llamas with camels, and it seems it has been done using artificial insemination. The offspring you get is called a "cama".

I also discovered that while mules cannot mate with each other and produce viable offspring, it is possible to breed a female mule with a male donkey or horse.

[Jamie123]

5 minutes ago, zil2 said:

However, it seems that alpacas and camels cannot be breeded (bred?) with each other.