Book of Mormon Reading Group: 06 Nov - 12 Nov 2023 (Alma 26 - Alma 37)

[Jamie123]

Sorry to drag up Muppets Christmas Carol again, but 37:37 makes me think of that.

I've never been able to do it though. When I wake up in the morning, it's not so much "let thy heart be full of thanks to God" as "Ugggggghhhhhh...is it really 7 already? I'll have 5 more minutes" which is actually more than 25 more minutes, followed by a mad scramble to get dressed and out the door without very much "thanks to God" along the way. Something to work on...

P.S. First mention of the Liahona for a long, long time. No mention of who now has it though.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

Alma 37

v1+: The importance of records.  It's not just prophets who should keep records.  Our own records can help those who come after us to understand the gospel, how it can be applied in day-to-day life, and how to have faith through hard times.  Keep records, especially if you have children to pass them on to.  And if you think you have nothing of value to pass on, start creating something of value.  The Lord's ways are the reverse of the world's way - if you wait to write until you have something worth saying, you will never get something worth saying, but if you start to write, the Lord will bless you with insights that a less-serious effort would not allow you to receive.  (I have a personal testimony of this.  It wasn't until I started taking notes on my scripture study, really trying to learn how to put the scriptures to use in my life, that the Lord blessed me with understanding of how to study the scriptures, and then with insights into how they can be applied in my life.  So just do it already! )

v6-8: "small" can seem unimportant, but look how important the scriptures are to us.  The written word "enlarged the memory" of generation after generation on every subject known to man.  Writing by hand increases the note-taker's retention and comprehension (as opposed to typing or not taking notes), so it can enlarge the individual's memory as well.  Use small means and let the Spirit work in you.

v14-15: Don't take lightly the sacred things entrusted to you (whether that's you, or the care of others, or knowledge, or responsibility).

v16-17: Seek guidance from God and trust that he can and will do as he says.

v21+: It's very interesting to me that it's important to the Lord that we know about the wickedness of other peoples.  It seems like knowing their righteousness would be more important, and yet here, it's suggested that all the instructions were about documenting wickedness (and in great detail - v27).  IMO, it's worth some pondering on what can be learned from all this.

v29: Partial answer - that we might learn to "abhor such wickedness".  (And from following verses, so we can understand the reality and depravity of secret combinations.)

v33: Document the evil, but preach the good.

v35: "learn wisdom in thy youth" - so much better to learn and develop good habits (and avoid bad ones) while young!  Those with children have a weighty responsibility to teach them well!

v36-37: I hope you will forgive my silly analogies, but I think this makes my point:  I have sometimes wondered how literal to take this counsel.  I mean, obviously, I should ask God for direction when preparing my Relief Society lesson - this is a no-brainer.  But how about when I'm considering buying a new fountain pen?  "Dear Heavenly Father, look at this wonderful pen I got.  Isn't it beautiful?  I plan to use it to take notes on my scripture study and write letters.  Do people write in heaven?"  It seems silly.  On the other hand, I love it when Klaw brings me his glitter ball (clearly saying, "Play with me, Meowmy.").  It means he wants to spend time with me.  I'm probably about Klaw-level intelligence compared to God.  Perhaps he's amused by my fountain pen obsession and pleased simply that I want to share my joy with him...

Regardless, the counsel is clear - develop a close, trusting, and loving relationship with God so that you can receive the guidance and blessings he has for you.

v38-46: There are many small and simple things that the Lord has provided to us to help us stay "on the path" - scripture study, prayer, Church meetings and programs, various teachings and examples, etc.  But they only work according to our faith - reading scripture is not the same as studying with faith.  "Saying prayers" is not the same as "pouring out your whole soul to God".  Etc.  Sometimes I think that because the scriptures are just there, easy to access, all too many of us at times think, "I can read those later, when I have time."  But that just forms a habit of never reading...  Etc.  So, don't be slothful.  Put the things of God first and he will increase your capacity or lengthen the day or otherwise help you to fit in the other things that are necessary.  As v47 says, "take care of ... sacred things".

v47: Look to God and live.  (Implied, look away from God and you won't be living.)

Edited November 12, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

13 hours ago, zil2 said:

"Saying prayers" is not the same as "pouring out your whole soul to God".  Etc. 

Simply "saying prayers" can be a start though. I have a quotation above my desk at work:

Quote

Cardinal Mercier used to recommend the following practice to people who found prayer difficult: sit quietly for a few moments each day and recite this prayer slowly and deliberately:

O Holy Spirit, Soul of my soul, I adore you. Enlighten, guide, strengthen and console me; tell me what I ought to do and command me to do it. I promise to be submissive in everything that you ask of me and accept all that you allow to happen to me. Only show me what is your will. Amen.

 

[zil2]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Simply "saying prayers" can be a start though.

Indeed.  To quote G.K. Chesterton:  “If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.”  Better to do it, and do the best you can manage at the time, even if it's done poorly, than to not do it at all.

 

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Simply "saying prayers" can be a start though. I have a quotation above my desk at work:

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Indeed.  To quote G.K. Chesterton:  “If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.”  Better to do it, and do the best you can manage at the time, even if it's done poorly, than to not do it at all.

Yes, there is always credit for effort, no matter how small.  I've recently had to come to grips with that for different reasons.

At the same time, I think that greater blessings can be found when there is more than simple "effort".

[zil2]

39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, there is always credit for effort, no matter how small.  I've recently had to come to grips with that for different reasons.

At the same time, I think that greater blessings can be found when there is more than simple "effort".

Yes, but I also think of our day where there's an epidemic of people who aren't willing to try and fail and try again.  Everyone wants to do it perfect the first time or not at all.  I think Chesterton's quote has application there.  Also, I think there are times when something needs doing and maybe we're not someone who can do it well, but we're the only one present.  Rather than saying, "well, I really can't do this" and walking away leaving it entirely undone, we do what we can so that it's better than before, even if not perfect.  (In other words, I think there are multiple ways to interpret Chesterton's quote.)

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Yes, but I also think of our day where there's an epidemic of people who aren't willing to try and fail and try again.  Everyone wants to do it perfect the first time or not at all. 

The principle of "try again" is where most people fall short.

For our current discussion, it is that people tend to stay at the "saying a prayer" phase without ever getting to the "pour your heart out to the Lord" phase.

I recently had an interesting interchange with my son.  He is a pretty competent piano player.  I wouldn't quite call him "gifted" (as far as music goes). But he has simply put in the work and study and time to become pretty good at it.

I happened to be in the living room studying something when he came in to practice.  Normally, we have the headphones plugged in, so others in the house aren't required to keep hearing the same song over and over again during practice.  But that day he had the headphones unplugged.

I was actually intrigued at how many times he messed up, and how slowly he figured out the fingerings to get fluent with the piece.  I was shocked.  He's very competent.  He learns new pieces each week.  

But as I heard him make mistake after mistake, and stop to figure out each step, I thought it was painfully slow.  That is when I usually stop trying because I figure it's above my level and don't try further until I've practiced a slightly simpler piece to eventually get to the next level.

That is why he's better than I am.  I can actually figure things out faster than he can.  I can get fluent with some refrains faster than he can.  But I lack the patience with myself.  He has infinite patience with himself.  And all the "failures" are simply stepping stones to success.  That is why he can play pieces that I can't.  Not because he's better or more trained in the piano than I am, but because he's not bothered by failure like I am.

[Jamie123]

42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is why he's better than I am.  I can actually figure things out faster than he can.  I can get fluent with some refrains faster than he can.  But I lack the patience with myself.  He has infinite patience with himself.  And all the "failures" are simply stepping stones to success.  That is why he can play pieces that I can't.  Not because he's better or more trained in the piano than I am, but because he's not bothered by failure like I am.

" If at first you don't succeed..."

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

" If at first you don't succeed..."

I'm sorry. But I don't recognize the image.

[Jamie123]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:23 PM, Carborendum said:

I'm sorry. But I don't recognize the image.

Robert the Bruce hiding from the English after his defeat. The legend is he saw a spider trying to spin a web. No matter how many times the web collapsed, the spider kept on trying. So Robert kept trying too, and next time he kicked the English's collective butt!

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again!"

Edited November 14, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:29 PM, zil2 said:

Alma 36

Alma is consistent in his teachings.   God blesses those who keep the commandments.  Remember what God has done for you and your ancestors.  Trust God and turn to him for support.

v5+: Testify of your own conversion.

v17-20: One reason to always remember Christ is the immediacy of his relief and mercy.

v24: Forgiveness should inspire you to share the joy of repentance with others.

v25: Doing God's work should bring you joy.  If not, figure out why not.

v27+: Trust in God.  Have hope.

Before we leave this alone... We can't forget the powerful chiasmus found in Ch 36.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-31-alma-36-39?lang=eng

Edited November 15, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Before we leave this alone... We can't forget the powerful chiasmus found in Ch 36.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-31-alma-36-39?lang=eng

"Nice to see you, to see you, nice."

[Carborendum]

Quote

31 And he did rise up in great swelling words before Alma, and did revile against the priests and teachers, accusing them of leading away the people after the silly traditions of their fathers, for the sake of glutting on the labors of the people.

 -- Alma 30:31

An acquaintance once made a fuss of the use of the word "silly" in this verse.  To him, it just didn't sound like a "scriptural" word.  I thought I'd look into this a bit more, and found an interesting linguistic find.

In the KJV, the word "silly" occurs three times. 

Quote

For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.

 --Job 5:2

Quote

Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

 -- Hos 7:11

Quote

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

 -- 2Ti 3:6

The New Testament usage (Greek) is not the same context or meaning as Alma.  So, I'll skip that one.

The Old Testament usage (Hebrew) is (pa-TAW).  And it has an interesting path to become "silly" in English.

The word indicates a wide open space.  But when used to describe a person, it refers to their mind being wide open (i.e. empty-headed, therefore gullible, therefore the person is a simpleton).

I thought for a while about this and wondered how often I've heard that same insult given by atheists to theists.  They only believe in the "invisible man in the sky" because they just haven't lived enough or don't know any better.  Their minds are empty.  They haven't studied anything.  They just don't know as much as I do.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard any real argument about why there ISN'T a God which doesn't include this as the basis to deny God.  We're just ignorant and stupid.

OTOH, what do we say about atheists?  What are our pillars to believe in God?  I can think of three.  I'm sure there are more.  But I'd wager that 90% of them fit into these three categories.

• For many, it is just what they were taught.  And certainly, even from an atheist's point of view, there are certainly many philosophical reasons to believe that the Bible actually gives many messages for good living, regardless of the existence of God.  Believe or not, but the lessons of life are very good messages.
• Miracles/Experiences: This is where it is persona experience.  Many times we consider "coincidences" to be miracles.  And maybe they are.  Atheists would throw all of them out and just chalk it up to coincidence.  But theists will give credit to God.  Then there are those things that are more than coincidence.  They defy the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, and mathematics as we know them.  We experience them.  But atheists weren't there to witness them.  So, "it just didn't happen the way you think it did."  Well, we were there.  The atheist wasn't.
• Witness of the Holy Ghost: I don't know how the sectarians emphasize this or not.  I know that we emphasize it a lot in all our teachings.  But I'm afraid to say that most people INDVIDUALLY tend not to emphasize it in their own lives as much as our teachings do (just my personal experience, no studies to back it up).  Yet this is the most important reason of all.  Forget what man taught you.  Forget miracles that could be coincidences, or our ignorance of science.  The Holy Ghost is the final witness of Christ and the truth.

Ironically, all three of these require us to admit that even if we have advanced degrees with decades of experience dealing with the scientific world we're aware of, there is still a vast ocean of knowledge, the surface of which we have not even begun scratch the surface.  Essentially, as little as humanity has learned about the physical world, we have to admit that there is a wide space between what is in our heads and what is out there to actually learn.

Religion puts that reality front and center.  Atheism puts our knowledge (little though it may be) front and center.  It is true that we are ignorant.  Theists are taught to take heart to admit that ignorance.  Humility opens the mind to learning. 

Atheists, instead, choose to mock such humility. -- That is Korihor.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[Vort]

"Silly" originally meant "stupid". This is the sense I believe it was meant in the Book of Mormon (and in the Bible, for that matter). Today, we use "silly" to mean something like "childishly or entertainingly foolish". It is often a term of endearment. That's probably the idea your friend had in mind when objecting to such a "non-scriptural" word. I share no such feelings at all, though I can understand how one might feel that way. For me, the word "silly" works just fine.

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Silly" originally meant "stupid". This is the sense I believe it was meant in the Book of Mormon (and in the Bible, for that matter). Today, we use "silly" to mean something like "childishly or entertainingly foolish". It is often a term of endearment. That's probably the idea your friend had in mind when objecting to such a "non-scriptural" word. I share no such feelings at all, though I can understand how one might feel that way. For me, the word "silly" works just fine.

Thanks, Vort.  I thought as much about the English side of it.  It only makes sense.

But I wouldn't call this guy my friend.  He was one of those guys who was just smart enough to recognize that he was above average, but he wasn't nearly as smart as he thought he was.  Add to that his physical stature lent to him bullying those around him into accepting whatever he said was true.  That made him excruciatingly annoying.