I'm a Christian.

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Yes writing that I realized it was flawed.

I believe the key difference in our logic is you are saying that the bad choices we make would be part of God's creation and therefore under his responsibility, bad choices would be his responsibility. I would say that evil-bad choices-were not created. Only choices, meaning it wouldn't be under his responsibility. Evil is the lack of good.  Cold does not really exist, it is just the absence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of God. Why should he be responsible for that?

We really are not that different in our beliefs.  The question is where does our will come from?  We both believe that our will is not a product of G-d.  I will put this another way.  Our individual uniqueness is a product of something G-d did not create.  The question is why?  I believe that our uniqueness (will) as an individual has always existed and cannot be created.  In short it was something that existed before G-d’s creation and defines us after.  That G-d created something for that uniqueness to act upon and become a being in the image and likeness of G-d.  Of course, there is a lot more to this than what we have discussed but for the core or our discussion this is important to understand before diving deeper.

Quote

If I know that my sister will steal my money does she not still have the choice to steal or not steal it?

 

I see this statement as somewhat problematic.  To explain, let’s be a little more dramatic.  Instead of using the example of your money let us use someone else's life.  This should make the point a little clearer.  - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable.   Under our law (that I believe on this point your culpability is just) you are an accessory to the crime.

 

It is my belief that there is a divine solution to this – but to get there, I believe we have to understand justice and what it demands.  Again thanks for allowing me to express my concerns and understanding.

Quote

Same for you. This is pretty interesting for me to hear and explore, hope I'm doing alright.

Also, sometimes when I make a quote I accidentally delete the line below and then have to requote...is there a way to add a blank line under a quote?

I can suggest that you copy the text uxing the + sign.  Then you can make several blank lines in your post and put the material copied with the + anywhere you want.  There may be other ways - I am not 100% sure of your question.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 30, 2024 by Traveler

[Maytoday]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that our uniqueness (will)

I don't understand this. Are our character traits(uniqueness), based on our will?  I thought will was like, the amount of self control to resist temptation and such. I feel like we have different definitions of will which is causing confusion.  What does will mean to you?

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

This should make the point a little clearer.  - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable. 

This is a fair point. But in that logic, because God knows that someone will murder yet he doesn't stop it, wouldn't that make him a bad God? 

And well, since he's not a bad God, I don't know what to think of that.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Maytoday said:

I don't understand this. Are our character traits(uniqueness), based on our will?  I thought will was like, the amount of self control to resist temptation and such. I feel like we have different definitions of will which is causing confusion.  What does will mean to you?

To answer the question a best as I understand.  In this mortal existence we have a physical body, but it only belongs to us in this mortal state.  We get our physical body through a process that is completed at our birth - we lose it when we die.  I believe there is something else that defines us – our spirit or ghost.  We do not know much about our spirit, but I believe we can have a sense of it.  It would appear that G-d also has a spirit.  Even scripture speaks of the spirit of G-d.  It is our spirit that contains all our uniqueness and defines us.  I cannot say how much of our spirit are characteristics that are learned or what has always been or existed – I suspect both.  Our will is one spirit characteristic I believe to have always existed.  I speculate that there are other always existed characteristics.  But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly.

Quote

This is a fair point. But in that logic, because God knows that someone will murder yet he doesn't stop it, wouldn't that make him a bad God? 

And well, since he's not a bad God, I don't know what to think of that.

I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d.  A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven.  To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit.  Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin.

I will likely have difficulty posting for the next 3 weeks – so if there are delays responding – please be patient.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly.

Not really sure what this means...

and as for this:

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d.  A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven.  To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit.  Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin.

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Not really sure what this means...

It was a reference to 1 Cor 13.

[person0]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:35 PM, Maytoday said:

Yes this was the part I was confused about. Most mormons say they are Christians, but everyone else I talked to says they are not. I'm not say who is or isn't right I'm trying to figure that out.

Just to blow your mind a bit, I'm going to spin this a different way for you.

Latter-Day Saints believe that our faith is the true religion of Christ restored to the earth, possessing His priesthood and the authority necessary to organize and govern His Church.

In essence, if put bluntly and taken to the extreme, we are the true Christians and others are in fact, not.  Of course, in actuality, we gladly welcome and acknowledge all who seek to follow Christ as fellow Christians.

I say it like that to demonstrate how easy it is to declare that someone is not what they claim to be.  The truth in any spiritual declaration can only be confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is how you can figure it out.

[person0]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:54 PM, prisonchaplain said:

. . . just because God knows what will happen does not mean that those who partake didn't have free will. They chose what they would do and God's foreknowledge of it does not detract from their willful decision.

Not trying to start an argument, but for the sake of further clarifying the LDS position (as I understand it), we definitely are in full agreement on this; we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

[zil2]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

...stuff on Third Hour...

Very nice to see you back, @person0!

[prisonchaplain]

10 hours ago, person0 said:

Not trying to start an argument, but for the sake of further clarifying the LDS position (as I understand it), we definitely are in full agreement on this; we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

You are, of course, correct about the LDS position on foreknowledge. Further, both of our traditions reject Predestination. Where we disagree, though we understand each other, is on Creation Ex Nihilo. I suspect that many traditional Christians have never even heard of creation out of nothing as a doctrine--we simply accept it as a given. Also, I contend that the doctrine of foreknowledge allows for free will even if creation ex nihilo is true.. Many LDS and others do not. Premortal existence does take away this controversy, but most traditional Christians are not familiar with the teaching and would likely reject it--at least on first hearing.

[Maytoday]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:44 PM, Maytoday said:

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

Follow up:  I believe we are looking at this in different ways...essentially I believe that things are possible that you don't...

I now understand the "conundrum" I had (my teacher is brilliant), but I'm not sure how to explain it, so if you'd like to to ill give it a go but otherwise...well I'm watching studio c right now. Best Show Ever.

On 1/31/2024 at 1:51 AM, person0 said:

we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

Indeed. Meaning it really all comes down to what you are willing to believe.

On 1/31/2024 at 12:40 PM, prisonchaplain said:

Further, both of our traditions reject Predestination. Where we disagree, though we understand each other, is on Creation Ex Nihilo

Out of curiosity @prisonchaplain, which creation idea do you believe in? I don't know about pentecostals.

 

[prisonchaplain]

4 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Out of curiosity @prisonchaplain, which creation idea do you believe in? I don't know about pentecostals.

 

I suspect that most Pentecostals are Young Earth Creationists. We tend the interpret scriptures as mostly literal and mostly historical. However, some of us are a bit more moderate in our understanding. I'm not dogmatic about creation and find that the day-age theory (that the earth could be much older than 6,000 years because "day" in Genesis could mean "age" rather than 24-hours). Still, the closer to literal interpretations  a theory is the more comfortable I am. Theistic Evolution (God designed the earth but it is many billions of years old, and God used the process of evolution to develop it) strikes me as too much of a compromise. Then again, I'm no scientist and could easily be wrong. It would not hurt my faith to find out the theistic evolutionists are correct.

Edited February 6, 2024 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

I realize that @Maytoday may have been asking me if I believe in Creation Ex Nihilo. Yes. Without the Latter-day revelations and interpretations, creation out of nothing is almost universally accepted among Christians, Muslims, and Jews. On the other hand, I accept that the thoughts of creation were in the mind of the Creator for eternity. So, in that sense, there is an eternal nature to what is. 

[Maytoday]

I was asking about young earth or day-age theory

[Traveler]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:44 PM, Maytoday said:

Not really sure what this means...

and as for this:

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

Sorry for the delay.  As I engage with Traditional Christians the conundrum concerning G-d that I encounter is that evil (Satan) outsmarts G-d and causes G-d to reconsider all his works (creation highlighted with the creation of man) and create a plan B.  This especially arises in the interpretations of the symbolisms of the Eden epoch.  That Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, rebelled against G-d and were forced from Eden and for this crime mankind became fallen.  The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy.

I believe that all that transpired was according to G-d plan and that what resulted was exactly and preciously what G-d desired, wanted and intended to happen.  In essence that G-d, because of his brilliant intelligence, love, compassion and mercy – wanted and intended that man (Adam, Eve and all mankind) obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil.  That such knowledge was intended and why G-d created man – to have knowledge of Good and Evil the same as He did.  There was no plan B.  Eden and the fall was His plan from the beginning stated in the opening revelation of Genesis.   It was evil and Satan that was outsmarted and forced into a plan B – Which will likewise fail.

It is evil and Satan that should not be trusted.  The purpose and design of evil will always fail in the light of G-d and his goodness – that never fails, is never surprised nor outsmarted – Ever!!!  We can trust G-d’s plan because it has unfolded exactly as G-d designed it to and exactly as He wanted it to.  There is no conundrum concerning G-d and never has been – only that Satan attempts to deceive – corrupting the truth and confuse the notion that G-d separates that which is light from that which is darkness.  That what was begun in the beginning is ended in the what revelation calls the final judgement.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

No problem for the delay:)

14 hours ago, Traveler said:

The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy.

Well in my opinion its not, because it didn't fail. Its essentially his plan which i can explain if you'd like.

 

[Traveler]

18 minutes ago, Maytoday said:

No problem for the delay:)

Well in my opinion its not, because it didn't fail. Its essentially his plan which i can explain if you'd like.

 

We then agree that there was no failure in the plan.  The all the events and outcome was exactly what G-d desired and intended – not the slightest variation from what was needed and had to be.  I would like to hear your version.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

Thinking about it for the past few hours its quite a bit simpler than i had thought.

God wanted to give us free will, because if you force someone to worship you, that would probably not be a good God, so that was his plan...to give us free will...if that makes sense.

[Omergideon]

On 2/21/2024 at 7:41 PM, Maytoday said:

Thinking about it for the past few hours its quite a bit simpler than i had thought.

God wanted to give us free will, because if you force someone to worship you, that would probably not be a good God, so that was his plan...to give us free will...if that makes sense.

For my slightly different take on the subject, I have no issue logically with the idea of Creation Ex Nihilo, I simply do not believe it to be true based on modern revelation.

As it stands, I view Free Will as something that comes with certain inherent conditions. For will to be free it must be inherently possible for a creature with free will to do evil. Even if it chooses not to do so the potential must exist by definition and default. So if God wants, for some reason, to have creatures with free will they must be able to choose evil.

So even with absolute Creation Ex Nihilo, the nature of what God is (a rational being among other things) requires he allow free will and the potential for evil.

The question is how much, if at all, God's omniscience and foreknowledge interfere with that. I differ from some in that I do not personally believe we have to believe God can see the future. This may seem odd, what with the existence of Prophecy and the like, but bear with me. To my eyes Prophecy in the Bible and other scripture are less predictions of the future and more statements of God's intended plan of action. So God, when he says "A virgin will conceive and bear a son" he is not predicting a future event so much as saying "at some point I will do this". Or when he prophesies about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans following Jesus' death it is not "I predict X if you do Y" and more "If you do X I will allow/cause Y to happen".

But God is able to know ahead of time the actions of people surely? He knows all does he not? And yes he does. But he knows all things as they are now would be my answer. God knows everything that is, that was, and that could be.

So when God tells Moses "Pharoah will harden his heart" again he is not making a prediction. He is saying in effect "Look I know Pharoah, and when you do this I know how he will reply and what it will take".

So yeah.... I don't think God technically knows the future. He knows us, and how we are likely to act, and he knows what HE will plan to do and under what conditions. But this is not knowledge of future events. It is a plan. Even the book of Revelation. This is part of why I try not to look for specific signs to match prophecy. Even a prediction as specific as "2 messengers will got to Jerusalem, be killed, lie dead for 2 days and I will return them to life" is God simply outlining events and that, at some point, he will command 2 messengers to go and allow them to be killed.

I would hold this even with or without Creation Ex Nihilo. But under that teaching God, wanting to create, makes beings with free will and a variety of characters. He knows some will choose to Sin, and others won't, so has the plan with Jesus and his sacrifice. And then throughout history he drops hints of the plan and instructions via prophecy. And when beings with will come into existence God does not "know" what they will do. He knows their character and personality and so acts a certain way to ensure that he does not trample on their free will, whilst still ensuring they can know about his roadmap and plan.

 

The most direct contradiction to my conception of God and prophecy is the statements like "he knows the end from the beginning" and "all is present to the Lord". But I cannot think of a single scriptural reference that says God exists outside of time. Him knowing the end to me speaks more of him already knowing the whole plan and what he will do later to make sure..... he wins feels a crude way to say it but such is.

 

anyway I know I am commenting on an old post but I found this interesting so wanted to get my thoughts down.

[pam]

5 minutes ago, Omergideon said:

anyway I know I am commenting on an old post but I found this interesting so wanted to get my thoughts down.

This one isn't so old by "old" standards here. You should see when someone brings up a thread from 10 years ago. Now that's really digging.    

 

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, Omergideon said:

.......

The most direct contradiction to my conception of God and prophecy is the statements like "he knows the end from the beginning" and "all is present to the Lord". But I cannot think of a single scriptural reference that says God exists outside of time. Him knowing the end to me speaks more of him already knowing the whole plan and what he will do later to make sure..... he wins feels a crude way to say it but such is.

 

anyway I know I am commenting on an old post but I found this interesting so wanted to get my thoughts down.

Greetings @Omergideon and thank you for your post.  I would add a few thoughts to your excellent post.  Not so much from my religious background but from my professional background.  When I finished college, I went to work for the Defense and Aerospace industry.  Later I transferred to industrial automation and robotics.

We learn from our modern scripture of the restoration, that the purpose of our physical creation and mortal probation is what the term probation intends - a monitored and supervised term or time period of specified condition.   This makes such perfect sense with our restored revelations concerning agency; that before our mortal experience all the terms and conditions were determined and set in full account of our agency.

In my experience as a scientist and engineer – we do not just have ideas, build a prototype and launch it into space, deploy it on a battlefield or install robots in an industrial facility to see what would happen.  Rather a probationary period of time was specifically planned for a vast variety and scale of testing was preplanned and executed to exact details.

The probationary period was not a pass-fail scenario but rather purposed to determine what changes and modifications are needed to ensure that each part of the whole was complete and ready for all the intended operations.  Or, for the case of humanity – for the intended eternity as designed by the individual’s agency.

Because each individual, through their agency, is the architect of their eternal glory within the Kingdom of G-d, and with the divine assistance of the atonement and plan of salvation – I can easily imagine that each individual’s mortal life is carefully scripted within determined parameters.

I really like this concept and believe it to fit quite well within the parameters defined in our LDS theology.   It allows that all things are known from the beginning to the end – not just in broad terms for mankind but also in terms for each individual as well. It also means that we can live out our life without any fear as to what can or will happen – specifically because all things can only turn our for our benefit as long as we have faith in Christ.  Having faith in Christ (which includes repentance) guarantees our best possible outcome.

In all my experience I have not encountered any better explanation for each individual’s circumstance in this life beyond our LDS theology of Laws, Ordinances and covenants.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Because each individual, through their agency, is the architect of their eternal glory within the Kingdom of G-d, and with the divine assistance of the atonement and plan of salvation – I can easily imagine that each individual’s mortal life is carefully scripted within determined parameters.

You've explained this before, and if I understand correctly, you are in essence saying we planned out the details of our mortality with God before we came here.  Is that correct?  (Cuz if it is, I have a doozy of a question for you.)

ETA: Followup question: If the above is correct, do you believe this happened for everyone, or only for those who would have a significant impact?

Edited Wednesday at 09:02 PM by zil2

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

You've explained this before, and if I understand correctly, you are in essence saying we planned out the details of our mortality with God before we came here.  Is that correct?  (Cuz if it is, I have a doozy of a question for you.)

ETA: Followup question: If the above is correct, do you believe this happened for everyone, or only for those who would have a significant impact?

I would be very pleased to have in-depth discussion about this with you, answer all your questions and even why the Calvinists think in terms of determinism – but that agency in our pre-existence estate is really the key.  I believe, and I think we can see this covered in scripture, that each individual plays out scripted (called, ordained and even made covenants) mapping out critical keys for what happens in this mortal probation – especially in sculpting out their individual eternal destiny.   And in assisting others on their journey to achieve their eternal destiny.  

Ask away.  I would greatly enjoy the opportunity.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Ask away.  I would greatly enjoy the opportunity.

I don't feel like you answered my first question, and until you do, in a way that's clear enough for me to understand, the next question is pointless (it may be anyway, depending on your answer).

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I would be very pleased to have in-depth discussion about this with you, answer all your questions and even why the Calvinists think in terms of determinism – but that agency in our pre-existence estate is really the key.  I believe, and I think we can see this covered in scripture, that each individual plays out scripted (called, ordained and even made covenants) mapping out critical keys for what happens in this mortal probation – especially in sculpting out their individual eternal destiny.   And in assisting others on their journey to achieve their eternal destiny.  

This feels like beating around the bush.  I could not care less about why Calvinists think what they do.  So let's try this....  Recognizing that any example is of necessity going to be flawed, nevertheless, let's imagine what this might have looked like for Joseph Smith, Jr.  He and God (or the Godhead or whomever) get together and come up with a plan (or perhaps God just tells Joseph the assignment / calling), that looks something like: "You'll be inspired to pray and ask what church to join. You'll be called to restore the church of Jesus Christ, translate scripture, restore and reveal doctrine..."  Etc. etc.  They'll go over the plan for Joseph's mortality to some level of detail.  Maybe it includes detail like the surgery on his leg as a child, who he'll marry, his children, his family's poverty, his numerous trials, how he'll die, who will betray him....  Or maybe it won't.  Maybe it'll just include the high points with an acknowledgement that mortality can be brutal.  Or maybe it's just the calling to be the head of this dispensation, without all the details...

My first question is, is something in there along the lines of what you're suggesting happened in our pre-mortal lives, or am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?  And if that is along the lines of what you're suggesting, do you have thoughts on the level of detail:

• Very vague: "You're called to be the prophet of the restoration."
• Just the important points: "You'll restore ancient scripture, restore the gospel, establish the church..."
• Also major life events: "...and you'll marry Emma and..."
• Lots of details (see example above)

[Maytoday]

Sometimes I look back on these things and think how did these people ever hold a conversation with my social-skill less self. 

Nonetheless, let's see if I have learned anything in the past year. 

On 5/28/2025 at 6:49 AM, Omergideon said:

To my eyes Prophecy in the Bible and other scripture are less predictions of the future and more statements of God's intended plan of action.

I suppose on a rational level, I would agree, yes. Most of what God says are him stating what he is going to do. However, I would also consider God to be omnipotent. And if God is all-powerful(and also not a liar), he will do what he says he will do. So what he says he will do will happen. And a prophecy is just saying that a specified thing will happen in the future.

 

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

in my experience as a scientist and engineer – we do not just have ideas, build a prototype and launch it into space, deploy it on a battlefield or install robots in an industrial facility to see what would happen.  Rather a probationary period of time was specifically planned for a vast variety and scale of testing was preplanned and executed to exact details.

The probationary period was not a pass-fail scenario but rather purposed to determine what changes and modifications are needed to ensure that each part of the whole was complete and ready for all the intended operations.  Or, for the case of humanity – for the intended eternity as designed by the individual’s agency.

If I am understanding this correctly, humankind was (or is?) in a sort of prototype testing in order to find what changes or modifications need to be made. The intention of the testing of inventions is to find the "bugs" per say, in order to prevent something from not working once it is released. This is because we, as flawed beings, will always have a problem in anything we create. We know, however, that "as your heavenly Father is perfect," and it is to my knowledge that a perfect being wouldn't make mistakes, so his creation would be perfect, not necessitating a probationary period.

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, zil2 said:

I don't feel like you answered my first question, and until you do, in a way that's clear enough for me to understand, the next question is pointless (it may be anyway, depending on your answer).

This feels like beating around the bush.  I could not care less about why Calvinists think what they do.  So let's try this....  Recognizing that any example is of necessity going to be flawed, nevertheless, let's imagine what this might have looked like for Joseph Smith, Jr.  He and God (or the Godhead or whomever) get together and come up with a plan (or perhaps God just tells Joseph the assignment / calling), that looks something like: "You'll be inspired to pray and ask what church to join. You'll be called to restore the church of Jesus Christ, translate scripture, restore and reveal doctrine..."  Etc. etc.  They'll go over the plan for Joseph's mortality to some level of detail.  Maybe it includes detail like the surgery on his leg as a child, who he'll marry, his children, his family's poverty, his numerous trials, how he'll die, who will betray him....  Or maybe it won't.  Maybe it'll just include the high points with an acknowledgement that mortality can be brutal.  Or maybe it's just the calling to be the head of this dispensation, without all the details...

My first question is, is something in there along the lines of what you're suggesting happened in our pre-mortal lives, or am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?  And if that is along the lines of what you're suggesting, do you have thoughts on the level of detail:

• Very vague: "You're called to be the prophet of the restoration."
• Just the important points: "You'll restore ancient scripture, restore the gospel, establish the church..."
• Also major life events: "...and you'll marry Emma and..."
• Lots of details (see example above)

We are talking about things that we really do not know much beyond faith in what we believe.  My conclusion is that everything was known – and I mean everything.  Isaiah tells us that G-d know everything from the beginning to the end.  Isaian also tells is that he makes everything known.  I surmise that we had a few hundred million years in the pre-existence to prepare for our mortal probation. 

Here is some more insights.  The Father presented his Plan of Salvation and Exaltation.  As I understand Lucifer presented an addendum to that plan that eliminated individual Agency in order to guarantee everyone would be saved. 

The thought I have concerning agency is that I do not think that G-d is going to “force” anything upon us.   I think we had to exercise our agency and agree and participate in G-d’s plan from the very beginning.  I think we knew every detail – even down to every insect bite.  As I understand Lucifer’s addendum, we only needed to agree to the minimum necessary in order to get done only what was necessary.  Lucifer would manipulate us into compliance with the plan.  He is definitely expert in manipulating us with his temptations, and we are told that by capitulating with his temptations we will lose our agency and be under his bondage and control. 

I believe G-d wants us to know precisely what we are getting into down to every detail.  It is Satan that wants us to flounder in ignorance. 

There is one other detail in this plan that plays into all this.  It is the “veil of forgetfulness”.   This allows us to play out our mortal probation with faith rather than the knowledge we acquired in the pre-existence from interfering with the probation.  This veil of forgetfulness allows us to have trials without full responsibility that enables us to have the experience of failure without 100% of the responsibility for our failures so we can experience (through repentance) the mercy, forgiveness and atonement (kippur) of G-d through Christ.

What I would love for you to do is go through everything I have expressed and let me know where you are concerned.  I will do my best to respond.  I would be most pleased if we could find an issue I have not considered.  There is one issue in all this I have not resolved to my satisfaction – only that what I have concluded seem the best of everything else I have considered.

If anyone reading this post has questions – I would be most pleased to discuss anything in more detail.  I believe we learn through ideas that challenge and push what we think we believe.

 

The Traveler