Question about Nephi

[Taklanika]

I am looking into religion, including Mormonism, and have read through the Book of Mormon, which I found at the library, and I have a few questions. I will start with the one that bothered me the most, and I hope that someone can explain.

Why did Nephi have to kill Laban?

Okay I know that it says so that they needed the brass plates, and that it would have been bad for people to find out that Lehi and his family had escaped from Jerusalem, but in other parts of the book God just makes people pass out drunk so that others can escape from prison, or he strikes people "dumb" so that they cant speak. Couldn't he have just done that to laban instead of having a good person commit murder?

I am not antagonistic against the book at all, and I don't think that it is evil, but I just can't wrap my head around this. I have only read it once and quickly at that, so I thought that I would ask some people who presumably have studied these types of things in classes and church meetings etc.

Thanks

[PentiumInside]

I will not presume to speak as a scholar on the BoM but I will say this:

God commanded a whole LOT of death and destruction in the Old Testament. Apparently killing people for Gods purposes isn't as morally revolting to heaven as it is to some of us.

[WANDERER]

I subscribe to the idea that God knows what will happen in the future ...and how things could mess up even further and is complex.

The methods used sometimes fulfil things or have more meaning than the events themselves...i.e. killing lambs.

[checkerboy]

I also think of it this way. The Lord wanted to know that Nephi was faithful. Just like commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was a test of Abrahams faith, I believe this was a test as well for Nephi. It isn't easy being a prophet and God needed to know that Nephi wouldn't buckle under the pressure.

[InTheDoghouse]

I think that this is a very common concern when people first start reading the BofM. I have come to understand the principle of judging others from this incident. In Matthew 7:1-2 the Savior warns us about the law of judging when he says, "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

In the course of the story in question, if you will recall, the brothers had several ideas about ways to gain the plates from Laban. The first plan they had was to cast lots and see who would simply go and ask for the plates, the lot fell on Laman, and this is what happened, " And we cast lots—who of us should go in unto the house of Laban. And it came to pass that the lot fell upon Laman; and Laman went in unto the house of Laban, and he talked with him as he sat in his house.

And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father.

And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I will slay thee."

It is here that Laban passes judgment on Laman, calling him a robber and then inflicting the punishment for a robber, as death. Thus with what measure he judged he will be judged.

The next plan was to go to their father's house and get the "inheritance" that was left behind and take it to Laban and try to "purchase" the plates from him. When Laban see's the gold and precious stuff they bring to try and buy the plates he "lusts" after it, "And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our property.

26 And it came to pass that we did flee before the servants of Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell into the hands of Laban."

Oh no, guess who is the actual robber in the story? Yep, you guessed it Laban. Now, remember the punishment Laban himself attaches to robbers, is death. When he passed judgment he cast his own fate.

As Nephi catches Laban in a drunken state he is reluctant to slay him but the Lord commands it. He is simply enforcing a "law" that he had already set, " and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again".

Hope this adds another insight to your study.

[the_jason]

Laban was a very powerful man. He no doubt would have hunted Nephi and sought to kill him. Also, the Lord didn't tell Nephi to kill Laban just because he didn't like him. It was for the purpose of preserving the plates, which was part of what we now know as the Old Testament. Without the plates there would be no record for Lehi and his family to follow. Their descendants would have been lost, spiritually, which would have affected all of us. "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." We are part of that nation that would have dwindled and perished in unbelief.

[Taklanika]

Thank you all for your insights into this question. They are all helpful and well thought out. I still don't like the idea of killing in the name of God though, even though it is in the Bible. I have to admit that I haven't read the Bible yet. I am studying different religions and decided to look into Mormonism before the Bible because the Book of Mormon is shorter...not really a good reason I know.

[PentiumInside]

Thank you all for your insights into this question. They are all helpful and well thought out. I still don't like the idea of killing in the name of God though, even though it is in the Bible. I have to admit that I haven't read the Bible yet. I am studying different religions and decided to look into Mormonism before the Bible because the Book of Mormon is shorter...not really a good reason I know.

LOL first of all thats an awesome reason lol. I like short.

Second, I don't like the idea of humans claiming they are killing in the name of God either, I have seen my share and I don't like it either. However, it wasn't like he woke up and said "Hey, I think God wants me to kill " God literally told him too.

[the_jason]

And he didn't want to do it either. The Lord had to tell him 3 times before he did it.

[WANDERER]

Glad you started this thread Taklanika.

[HiJolly]

Thank you all for your insights into this question. They are all helpful and well thought out. I still don't like the idea of killing in the name of God though, even though it is in the Bible. I have to admit that I haven't read the Bible yet. I am studying different religions and decided to look into Mormonism before the Bible because the Book of Mormon is shorter...not really a good reason I know.

In the Bible you'll find an even more difficult scenario -- Abraham, being commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac. Both are difficult to work with.

HiJolly

[inthearmsofsleep]

From a greater scope of this world and the eternities, the physical death of a wicked man is nothing compared to the spiritual suffering of millions that would affect their eternal lives. There's a reason why people wonder about the flood that killed so many in Noah's time, and many of the other catastrophic events that were acts of God in the history of our Earth... but if we could know what He knows, we would understand. Sometimes it's an act of mercy, to prevent those people from committing further sin that would bring them to a spiritual death, or to bring about greater purposes such as preserving history. We don't always know why, but God commanded it, and we can now see the effects of it.

[CrimsonKairos]

People rarely wake up one day and decide, "I'm going to steal a family's worldly wealth and have them executed." My point: There's probably alot of backstory to Laban that we don't get from Nephi's brush with him. Laban was likely corrupt, wicked and murderous before Nephi and his brothers ever set eyes on Laban.

In addition to preserving the brass plates and all that jazz, it is possible that God was rendering due justice to a man who had likely been sinning, blaspheming and murdering for years.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It's not as if killing Laban was the first option though. He had been given previous opportunities of handing over the plates but he stubbornly refused even when he was offered wealth in exchange he stole that and still kept hold of the plates.

I have to admit that I haven't read the Bible yet. I am studying different religions and decided to look into Mormonism before the Bible because the Book of Mormon is shorter...not really a good reason I know.

Oh dear I hate to have to disillusion you but although the Book of Mormon is shorter than the Bible it isn't 'instead of' it's 'in addition to' so in order to look fully into Mormonism you need to read both - and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

[EighthChild]

Proverb 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

The Lord knew Laban better then Nephi did.

His response to Nephi's hesitation to kill Laban gives a lot of insight:

1 Nephi 4:13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

[Taklanika]

It's not as if killing Laban was the first option though. He had been given previous opportunities of handing over the plates but he stubbornly refused even when he was offered wealth in exchange he stole that and still kept hold of the plates.

Oh dear I hate to have to disillusion you but although the Book of Mormon is shorter than the Bible it isn't 'instead of' it's 'in addition to' so in order to look fully into Mormonism you need to read both - and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Sorry for the mistake. I was actually a bit suprised at the amount of Bible quotations being used on a Mormon site. Is there a particular Bible that anyone could suggest? There are about 50 different translations at the Barnes and Noble by my house. Also what are the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price?

[Taklanika]

Sorry my last post was a little off topic, but I didn't think that the question merited staring a new thread.

You have all been very helpful in your replies to my original question.

[john doe]

Sorry for the mistake. I was actually a bit suprised at the amount of Bible quotations being used on a Mormon site. Is there a particular Bible that anyone could suggest? There are about 50 different translations at the Barnes and Noble by my house. Also what are the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price?

LDS use the King James Version of the Bible.

[CrimsonKairos]

Also what are the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price?

The LDS "canon" or the official scriptures of the LDS Church include:

The Holy Bible (we use the KJV)

The Book of Mormon

The Doctrine & Covenants (revelations given to Joseph Smith and a few other modern-day prophets after him)

Pearl of Great Price (contains some of Moses' lost writings, as well as some of Abraham's writings)

You can read any or all of them here.

You can also use the "search" feature on that website for a variety of useful queries.

[rameumptom]

Good question. Our American world view is very different than the ancient world view. Moses' command: Thou Shalt Not Kill/Murder, was premised on the idea that God gives life and only God can command that it be ended. Hugh Nibley told of a Book of Mormon class he taught several years ago at BYU, where he had some non-LDS Arab students. When they got to this spot, he was interested in their thoughts on it. They were upset with Nephi because he paused to question God. In their view, had Nephi been truly faithful, he wouldn't have shrunk from killing Laban, but would have done it quickly and faithfully.

Had Laban been allowed to live, he would have awakened and sent armies to chase Nephi and his family. It's possible that Zoram, Laban's servant, would not have been as quick to join the Nephites, but would have worked to restore the items to Laban.

Finally, we cannot always understand why God sometimes commands death and sometimes mercy. Why does one child miraculously survives cancer and another dies? Why did thousands of children die in the tsunami in Indonesia, and yet God allows others to live? It all comes back to God's eternal purposes for both individuals and also for nations. God was wanting to create a nation with Nephi and needed the Brass Plates. In other instances, God has shown mercy to the non-believers.

[Doctor Steuss]

People rarely wake up one day and decide, "I'm going to steal a family's worldly wealth and have them executed." My point: There's probably alot of backstory to Laban that we don't get from Nephi's brush with him. Laban was likely corrupt, wicked and murderous before Nephi and his brothers ever set eyes on Laban

In addition to preserving the brass plates and all that jazz, it is possible that God was rendering due justice to a man who had likely been sinning, blaspheming and murdering for years.

Hi CK,

Glad to see you here (I believe we haven't "crossed paths" since my other hiatus from ldsforums).

This is an interesting theory, and one that I've never considered. It has added merit (IMO) when one considers that Nephi was essentially living under the Law of Moses at the time.

[CrimsonKairos]

Good to see you too, Doc. :)

There is an interesting element to Nephi's encounter with Laban when as you said we take into account that the Law of Moses governed Israel at that time.

[Doctor Steuss]

Good to see you too, Doc.

Ah shucks... I don't know if you want people knowing that you think it's good seeing the devil though.

There is an interesting element to Nephi's encounter with Laban when as you said we take into account that the Law of Moses governed Israel at that time.

Technically, I imagine Nephi may have been justified in killing Laban for the simple fact that Laban attempted to kill him.

I’m not sure what tradition Exodus 21 follows in regards to the DH (since the Brass Plates [at least according to Potter] mainly followed the E tradition), but I think that since they did have the “five books of Moses” (1 Nephi 5:11) that they probably had at least a semblance of the lex talionis and felt a need to adhere to it to some extent while still tied to Israel.

Just some initial heretical thoughts based on your potential theory.

Good stuff.

[rameumptom]

The LDS Documentary Hypothesis suggests that the Brass Plates were the E version of the writings of Moses. However, in quoting 1 Ne 5:11, I would note that in the original manuscript, it states "book of Moses" and not books. Joseph Smith, in his amazing way of not always really knowing what he had at hand, "corrected" the manuscript to say "books." It is highly possible that E did not have all 5 books of Moses, just as the normal Documentary Hypothesis suggests (Deuteronomy was created in King Josiah's day), but there would be ancient writings upon which all 5 books were built upon.

To what extent would Nephi have understood the lex talionis when originally attempting to get the plates from Laban? True, he wrote his account 20 years later, after he had become a gospel scholar on the Brass Plates and was able to recount the story to us from such a perspective. Others have discussed how Nephi turned his account into a David and Goliath formula, as well.

[Doctor Steuss]

rameumptom,

That's intersting regarding a David/Goliath motif. Especially given the seemingly high importance of the Davidic covenent within the BoM.

I’m wondering about your comment regarding Joseph changing it to “books” though. Did he also insert the word “five"?