From my scripture reading this morning

[askandanswer]

I wrote the following a few minutes ago during my scripture reading and thought it was worth sharing. Its an observation and conclusion rather than a question. This line of thought was triggered by part of  Ether 4:15

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is essential - there is no other way around it, or no acceptable substitute. It may be worth thinking about if the heart is mended, and if so, how, and how might the heart that has been broken and mended be different from the heart that was not broken. This could be interesting. What kind of Being, or what kind of Father, wants the heart, the most essential part, of His children to be broken? Have God's children been made in such a way that the most essential part of them contains some sort of deficiency, or inadequacy, that needs to be removed or transformed? If so, what is that thing? I believe it is our will. Perhaps our will must be broken and and then re-made in such a way that we then turn our will over to God. Perhaps we retain our agency, but our will belongs to God and that fact might be either the sole, or the main, determinant of how we choose to use our agency. We might retain the capacity to choose, but have the desire to only choose that which God wants. Perhaps the main purpose of this life is to mold us to the point, or prepare us to the point, that we only want to choose what God would have us choose and be willing in all aspects to do as He desires and requires of us. I think that is the point at which we become most teachable, and there is a lot that we will need to be taught after this life. Perhaps there is something in us that needs to be "burnt out" or removed, or transformed, and then handed over to God. We need to become His completely. Like it or not, I should accept this deal because it is the only one on the table. But that should not be my reason for accepting it, I should accept it because I want it and because I trust God that this is the best possible thing that could happen to me. Why should I doubt given that God has promised me all that is His, all that He has? He's not trying to make me eternally subservient to Him, He is trying to help me become as He. We have a lot to learn in order for that to happen, and to learn that, we need to be teachable, and we are at our most teachable when our will is perfectly aligned with God, and we only want what He wants. This would help to explain why some people do not enter the celestial kingdom - they have retained an element of personal will, they have not handed themselves completely over to God, there is something within them still, this element of id (used in the Freudian sense) that blocks, or is a hindrance to, their ability to receive the necessary learning required to become as God. By retaining this element of self-will, they create an obstacle to participating in the learning necessary to become as God. And perhaps we can speculate a little further and say that Christ's Atonement was the ultimate test of, example of, demonstration of, subjugating one's will to God's, and in doing so, that may be how He became as His Father, although that conclusion, I suspect, is far more speculative and perhaps somewhat more tenuous, than the other conclusions here. 

The logic of this arrangement seems to be internally consistent and seems to fit together well. 

[laronius]

Your comments about a broken heart made me think of Enoch's experience where he witnesses God crying and it confuses him. How can the God over the universe be overly concerned because a few (relatively speaking) of His children rebel? The Lord then explains the source of His great grief and helps Enoch see as He sees. We then read:

Moses 7:41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity ; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

This to me is the exact opposite of a hardened heart. A heart so soft and pliable that there is no limit on it's ability to feel compassion and love, as much for the one as the masses.

Enoch and his people were taken up. I have to believe that the condition of their hearts was a controlling factor in that process. 

[Sal]

Absolutely I agree 100 percent ! We are broken people Heavenly Father can use Broken people to fulfill his will that’s why we needed the atonement of Jesus Christ because of the fall of Adam and Eve when God completes his work with us we are beautiful diamonds that were in the rough thanks for a great word !

[Traveler]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:25 PM, askandanswer said:

I wrote the following a few minutes ago during my scripture reading and thought it was worth sharing. Its an observation and conclusion rather than a question. This line of thought was triggered by part of  Ether 4:15

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is essential - there is no other way around it, or no acceptable substitute. It may be worth thinking about if the heart is mended, and if so, how, and how might the heart that has been broken and mended be different from the heart that was not broken. This could be interesting. What kind of Being, or what kind of Father, wants the heart, the most essential part, of His children to be broken? Have God's children been made in such a way that the most essential part of them contains some sort of deficiency, or inadequacy, that needs to be removed or transformed? If so, what is that thing? I believe it is our will. Perhaps our will must be broken and and then re-made in such a way that we then turn our will over to God. Perhaps we retain our agency, but our will belongs to God and that fact might be either the sole, or the main, determinant of how we choose to use our agency. We might retain the capacity to choose, but have the desire to only choose that which God wants. Perhaps the main purpose of this life is to mold us to the point, or prepare us to the point, that we only want to choose what God would have us choose and be willing in all aspects to do as He desires and requires of us. I think that is the point at which we become most teachable, and there is a lot that we will need to be taught after this life. Perhaps there is something in us that needs to be "burnt out" or removed, or transformed, and then handed over to God. We need to become His completely. Like it or not, I should accept this deal because it is the only one on the table. But that should not be my reason for accepting it, I should accept it because I want it and because I trust God that this is the best possible thing that could happen to me. Why should I doubt given that God has promised me all that is His, all that He has? He's not trying to make me eternally subservient to Him, He is trying to help me become as He. We have a lot to learn in order for that to happen, and to learn that, we need to be teachable, and we are at our most teachable when our will is perfectly aligned with God, and we only want what He wants. This would help to explain why some people do not enter the celestial kingdom - they have retained an element of personal will, they have not handed themselves completely over to God, there is something within them still, this element of id (used in the Freudian sense) that blocks, or is a hindrance to, their ability to receive the necessary learning required to become as God. By retaining this element of self-will, they create an obstacle to participating in the learning necessary to become as God. And perhaps we can speculate a little further and say that Christ's Atonement was the ultimate test of, example of, demonstration of, subjugating one's will to God's, and in doing so, that may be how He became as His Father, although that conclusion, I suspect, is far more speculative and perhaps somewhat more tenuous, than the other conclusions here. 

The logic of this arrangement seems to be internally consistent and seems to fit together well. 

I wish I understood better what a broken heart is.  I do not believe a broken heart is an emotional breakdown.  In the game of love and dating – I never had a broken heart – or at least what the Hallmark channel portraits as a broken heart.

I would that those more sure or such things share their understanding – especially those willing to work with me and my questions about what a broken heart is.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I wish I understood better what a broken heart is. 

Consider when a horse is "broken".  It is tamed.  Taught to obey.  Its wild and reckless behaviors are "broken".  Consider when we "break" a bad habit - we give it up.  We overcome or master the part of ourselves that participated in said habit.  I believe these are the meaning of "broken heart" - one that submits to the Lord's will, one that obeys, trusts, is "tamed".

Edited August 12 by zil2

[zil2]

32 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I wish I understood better what a broken heart is.  I do not believe a broken heart is an emotional breakdown.  In the game of love and dating – I never had a broken heart – or at least what the Hallmark channel portraits as a broken heart.

I would that those more sure or such things share their understanding – especially those willing to work with me and my questions about what a broken heart is.

Here's a previous comment about the meaning of this phrase:

 

[zil2]

As far as I can tell, the only place in the Bible that refers to having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is Psalm 34:18.  I was hoping for more places so I could look for original language meanings and alternate translations.  As it is, the Hebrew word used means broken just as we mean it, but also stems from a root that includes "to burst" (and also "bring to birth" or "give birth").  Heart is more different and includes the idea of that which is our "inner part" or "midst" and can include mind, soul, conscience, etc.  And it seems all the other translations use words and phrases that give no additional insight, except two, which use "contrite (in) heart" and "lowly in spirit" / "truly sorry for their sin".

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

Consider when a horse is "broken".  It is tamed.  Taught to obey.  Its wild and reckless behaviors are "broken".  Consider when we "break" a bad habit - we give it up.  We overcome or master the part of ourselves that participated in said habit.  I believe these are the meaning of "broken heart" - one that submits to the Lord's will, one that obeys, trusts, is "tamed".

I like (for the purpose of understanding) the idea of taming or discipline.  Jesus called his true followers’, disciples which has the same root meaning as discipline.  I also like the idea of the two going together – being disciplined with a contrite spirit, which could be another way of saying disciplined and eager to repent.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

21 hours ago, Traveler said:

I wish I understood better what a broken heart is.  I do not believe a broken heart is an emotional breakdown.  In the game of love and dating – I never had a broken heart – or at least what the Hallmark channel portraits as a broken heart.

I struggled with understanding this until having personal experiences.  Two different experiences, for what I've come to believe are two different phenomena.  I've had what I consider to be two broken hearts.  One the more hallmark/relationship type, and one which I believe matches the description found in scripture.  Different things.  

The first "love/dating/relationship broken heart" surprised the heck out of me.  It happened while I was in the emotional turmoil of trying to fix or heal a broken relationship.  A long, long time ago.  I remember feeling almost a physical snapping sensation, like a bone had been broken, but with no physical pain.  But it was not a physical sensation at all.  I hadn't felt anything like it before, so had a hard time figuring out what it was.  Closest I can come to describing it:  Have you ever had a bad flu, and your fever suddenly and dramatically breaks, and you're left sitting there totally wiped out and still drenched in sweat but a big cause of suffering has just washed out of you?  Like you had been spending half your energy in an internal battle against the virus, and you found yourself no longer spending that energy?  Similar to that, except no flu was involved.  When I tried to return to my internal efforts to "work on the relationship", I found a complete and total lack of ability to do so.  I formed a mental image in my mind of my big pile of crap I was working on, with a lever and a fulcrum, but when I pushed down on the lever, it had cleanly snapped at the point of the fulcrum, and the big pile of crap didn't budge an inch.  It dawned on me that my "old relationship" with this person was over/done/gone/destroyed, and I would be starting from scratch to build a new one, from a fresh perspective.  

My 2nd experience was absolutely the "broken heart and contrite spirit" thing spoken of in the scriptures.  I had the same realization as the underlined part above.  The relationship was the one between me and God.  But it wasn't a snapping sensation, it wasn't immediate, more like a new conviction that grew powerful over a short period of time.  The cleansing, freeing realization that I had stopped being a non-disciple, I was now living life as a disciple.  I "got it".  I understood my part, and God's.  And whereas before I was trying hard to be worthy or a good person, now I was clearly and openly walking the path of a son of my Heavenly Father, a disciple of Christ.  The contrite spirit was basically the humbled state of affairs of someone who had spent a lot of life not humbled.  

 

Anyway, contrition is for people who are remorseful for wrongdoing.  Can't be contrite if you've got nothing to be sorry for.  There are many, many people, and you may be one of them @Traveler, who have just never really been on the "other side" of the gospel plan.  And while you have been a sinner as have we all, perhaps you've always sinned while "playing for the right team", and repenting is often a simple 1:1 with the coach.  Perhaps your heart was properly broken as a toddler, as you learned why you shouldn't bonk the dog, and you felt bad for the dog, and it was an easy lesson that you never needed to re-learn.  I know many folks like that.   I also know a lot of folks like me, adult converts who have come into the fold after walking other paths.  Maybe not horrible or dark paths, but there's still some hefty soul movement that happens when switching to the Gospel path, and it leaves a sensation of a broken heart and contrite spirit.

I have no clue if I've made any sense, but I hope it helps.

Edited August 13 by NeuroTypical