I've decided not to investigate the Church any longer.

[Misshalfway]

i do not beleive the original poster was ever a true investigator

This was not nice.

You know, this church is a challenging one at times. Not all of us "get it" all in one moment. Sometimes it takes time to work things out in our heads before we can accept it. It took Brigham Young two years. Joseph Smith himself said that he wouldn't blame any man for not believing his story. Come on, lds people! Where is your patience? Where is your empathy and compassion for those who investigate? This is a demanding church. It is demanding in what it asks in terms of faith and study and effort. This poster clearly has been searching. So what if stumbling blocks come. Let them. Bring on the anti - literature or opposing ideas. This person is going to have to over come it sometime. So why not now?

Kona, you keep searching. You keep listening to that spirit inside of you and you will find the truth. I think all that we LDS people want you to know, is that there are lots of anti people out there that will stop at nothing to discount the church. And they are very convincing and deceptive. Be careful. I have never read any anti literature that is true. What I have read feels a lot like tabloid journalism. Sometimes I wish they would argue the church on its merits and stay on an honest playing field.

Just know, that you won't get your answer from literature. You get it from your conversations with the Lord. I think that is true for everyone in the world. No matter what church you belong to. God knows if He talked to Joseph or not. He will tell you! He was there! It takes courage to ask. And even more courage to listen and obey the answer. You sound like you have that kind of courage. Whatever you do, don't leave your investigations if your feeling include doubt and fear. You need to walk away completely and totally at peace. That is the spirit of the lord. Peace and truth and confidence in that truth. Doesn't matter what any earthling says. At the end of the day, it matters what God says to you and only you and what you choose to do with that information. Even if you are convinced Joseph is not a prophet. Take that question to God. Listen. Be willing to trust. Be willing to be wrong. If He tells you that Joseph isn't a prophet, that you are all safe, right?

[Guest Malcolm]

I welcome inquiry, any time. But I think Kona is "looking" to disprove rather than to inquire. By the specific scriptures he cites it is clear that he has been in the anti-mormon sites for a while more so than in the LDS sites.

He is not asking, he is stating the allegations as facts and evidence that Joseph was a false prophet. The scriptures are all taken out of context, of course, but he took on them right away. It would be like me saying that Isaiah was a false prophet because when he tells Ahaz that "the virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and his name shall be Inmanuel" Well that was a false prophesy because the Savior was not born for another 600 years!! It is none sense but I could say that if I did not know any better and I was influenced by atheist rhetoric.

So, if he REALLY wants to know he needs to stop reading other sites and get on his knees and pray for the spirit of discernment before he takes on the Book of Mormon, again. This is not an intellectual exercise but a significant act of faith which although not opposed to facts is not dependent on them to establish truth independently.

God point to faith and eternal life, the enemy points to facts and a dead end. Mortality.

Search, my friend, but do it in the spirit of faith and in truth.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps what is confusing many is that Kona was not a member of the church. He was not one that believed, and then floundered after reading an anti-LDS tract. Rather, he investigated the church, and is now reported his conclusion, so that members here do not misunderstand him.

It is natural that thoughtful investigators, knowing that the LDS faith is a controversial one, would search both what the church has to say, and some of the more substantive critiques--and then pray. seeking the truth. However, you do not expect that approach from members.

I'm a strong supporter of the right to conversion. In some countries, this is a burning issue (occasionally, literally so). But, along with that right, comes the reality that some, after careful investigation, will turn away and draw a negative conclusion.

The same happens in jail, with those who come to chapel. Usually the "investigation" is not so intellectual. Rather, it's the more basic struggle--will I serve God and live right, or is it all fairy tales, and should I just take care of myself? Sadly, many choose the latter.

In this case, Kona at least seems driven by a desire for spiritual truth. If he's sincere, the Old Testament, New Testament, and the BoM all say that he will find God and ultimate truth.

So...imho...just bless Kona...as a few have indeed done here. :-)

[tree]

I Stand Strong In My Faith! The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints Is True And Any Body That Studies Our Faith And Doctrine And Doesnt Believe More Power To Ya! We Will All Stand Before God And Be Judged, Therefore We Will All Find Out Where We Were Wrong...whether It Be Doctrine,,faith,, Or Works. We Are Only As Close To Heavenly Father As We Want To Be! I Speak In Love, Tree

[kona0197]

I have a few problems with other things the Church says and/or teaches. Can I voice those few things or will I be called anti-Mormon again?

It's getting to the point that I'm not wanting to even visit this site any longer...

[Heather]

Kona,

You're fine. :) I think you've established that you really are interested in what others have to say. I hope you can understand why people may have thought you were trolling in the beginning.

I think that it's important that an LDS site allows friends of other faiths and beliefs to ask questions and find answers to what we really believe. There are plenty of sites out there (as you know) filled with lies. I for one am happy that members have a site like this where they can share what we really do believe.

[kona0197]

Curious question to start with then:

Why is it Mormon teachings say that black skin is a curse? That seems a bit racial. I find it hard to believe a Church would be that way.

And why did the Church prevent Blacks from getting the Priesthood until recently? That seems a bit racist as well...

[Iggy]

Curious question to start with then:

Why is it Mormon teachings say that black skin is a curse? That seems a bit racial. I find it hard to believe a Church would be that way.

And why did the Church prevent Blacks from getting the Priesthood until recently? That seems a bit racist as well...

Mormon teachings don't teach or say that black skin is a curse.

The Church did not prevent the blacks from receiving the Priesthood. Heavenly Father withheld that from them until 1978.

[kona0197]

"Mormon teachings don't teach or say that black skin is a curse. "

Yes they do. Ever read the heading above the chapter in Genesis when Cain kills Abel?

"The Church did not prevent the blacks from receiving the Priesthood. Heavenly Father withheld that from them until 1978."

Why? I find it hard to believe that God would single out one race as he created all races equal...

[kona0197]

Another thing:

How do you guys explain that no Native American DNA matches up to any DNA from Israel?

How about the fact that they can't find any evidence that the BOM cities existed?

Or the fact that after all those battles in the BOM we have never found any of those old weapons?

Why haven't we found any of the money they used?

[Guest Malcolm]

Kona:

Before you tread into archaeological and anthropological quicksand I think you should go back to basics. There are a thousand questions about the Biblical account and Israel has been dug out for 100 years and it is only 100 miles wide. To this day there is no real consensus to where some of the cities were!!

It is critical that you strive to ascertain if the record is true by reading the Book of Mormon and asking our Heavenly Father about the truth of it. It is obvious that you have been reading anti-Mormon literature. It seems to me you are not seeking truth in faith. Faith can not be predicated on the bases of archaeological or biological evidence. It you need "convincing" evidence of anything you will end up an atheist.

[kona0197]

Good advice. I'll pray about it.

[WillowTheWhisp]

How do you guys explain that no Native American DNA matches up to any DNA from Israel?

There's a thread on this subject somewhere, but it is a very complicated one. I don't claim to know much about DNA but I really wouldn't have expected Native American DNA to match DNA from Israel. For one thing Lehi and his family left Jerusalem in 600 BC and I think a lot has probably happened in Israel in the time since then. Can we even be sure that DNA in modern Israel would match DNA in ancient Israel? Also, the Lamanites from whom the Native Americans are said to be decsended are not just descendants of Laman and Lemuel. There were the Jaredites, who date back to the Tower of Babel and would they have had Israeli DNA? There were other peoples there too. The term 'Lamanite' was adopted by people who joined forces with the literal descendants of Laman and Lemuel and their DNA would not necessarily have been similar. If someone is adopted into a family even though they bear that family's name they will not have the same DNA and nor will their descendants.

On top of all that, DNA isn't the foolproof science we are led to believe. What about that woman who knew very well she gave birth to her children and yet they do not have her DNA? We humans aren't as clever as we think we are.

To me it would have been more odd if the DNA had matched.

[WillowTheWhisp]

How about the fact that they can't find any evidence that the BOM cities existed?

Or the fact that after all those battles in the BOM we have never found any of those old weapons?

Why haven't we found any of the money they used?

Just because something hasn't been discovered yet doesn't mean it isn't there. Mt Everest was still a pretty big mountain even before anyone climbed it.

[prisonchaplain]

Kona, a lot of past strings in the forums address the issues you've raised. It might take a bit of digging, but you'll find many opinions. There's one about the mark of cain going on right now. So, keep digging.

[Brother Dorsey]

I will try and answer your question for you.....

Curious question to start with then:

Why is it Mormon teachings say that black skin is a curse? That seems a bit racial. I find it hard to believe a Church would be that way.

The LDS church does not teach that black skin is a curse...however in scriptural accounts the Lord did curse some people with black skin because of severe disobedience. This does not mean and has never meant that the church believes all those with black skin are cursed. Just those individuals whom the Lord cursed.

And why did the Church prevent Blacks from getting the Priesthood until recently? That seems a bit racist as well...

It was the Lords will. Remember in the Old Testament only the Levites could hold the priesthood....it wasn't because the other tribes were cursed or unworthy but because this is something the Lord wanted. In 1978 the Lord revealed to the Prophet that the priesthood can now be held by all worthy male members of the church. You don't hear the women complaining do you?

Remember, blacks were never denied membership in the church!

If you study recent religious history (last 150 years) you'll find many different Christian churches who denied pastor ships, priesthoods and the like to blacks.

Another thing:

How do you guys explain that no Native American DNA matches up to any DNA from Israel?

This is too easy.....The DNA from Israel is from the tribe of Judah, the DNA from the Jadeites and Lehi's family is from the tribe of Ephraim. Besides even if the DNA came from the same source there was way too much mixing of DNA over the past 2600 years to get any type of even close resemblance much less be accurate. The DNA thing is more anti-Mormon garbage!

How about the fact that they can't find any evidence that the BOM cities existed?

Well, they've been excavating the Middle East for some 1500 years and central and south America for about 100. Also tie in the fact that the Middle East was the central of civilization for 8000 years and the BoM people were in Central and south America for only 2600. By the way have you seen recently where scientists have discovered another hidden ancient city in south America using satellite! It's awesome...things are just now coming to light!

Or the fact that after all those battles in the BOM we have never found any of those old weapons?

Again, central and south America are very large places and many parts have yet to be explored....besides....where's Noah's ark? Show me the Garden of Eden. The stable Christ was born in? Solomons Temple? Where did Moses part the Red sea? Show me any references to Joseph ruling Egypt...the Egyptians kept great records, yet none exists. Faith man faith!

Why haven't we found any of the money they used?

Not yet at least! Because we haven't found any does that mean it doesn't exist? Because Jesus was written about in the Bible does that mean he existed? Can anyone prove he existed? Again...faith man!

If you want more in depth answers to these and many more anti-Mormon questions just click here:

One-Minute Answers - contents

[Brother Dorsey]

For various reasons I've decided to quit investigating the Church.

One of the main things that got me thinking was that the Bible says you will know a prophet by his words. If what he says comes to pass he is a Prophet.

Joseph Smith made several prophecies that didn't come true.

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He may have been a good man but not a prophet. Many of his teachings are very questionable.

I'll hang around but I'll not be going to Church.

Okay, if you put it in that context then John who wrote Revelations must be a false prophet too because he made several prophecies that haven't come true.....yet. So, who's to say whether Joseph Smith's prophecies will not come true during our generation, the next or next? The Bible doesn't say that a Prophet's prophecy has a limited time to come true does it?

[Guest Malcolm]

I, for once, decided not to worry much about the archeology of teh scriptural accounts. When I was int he military we had geodesic maps of central and south America we we frequently utilized. We had identified about 1200 granite and limestone pre-Colombian ruins thru satellite and infrared mid altitude analysis. We used many of them to place weapons and equipment, shelter and for water re-supply. You will not find any of them on any brochure or scientific article.

In fact, the largest pyramid found to date is in central America. It has not been excavated yet and although scientists are aware of it most people have not heard of it. It would make the Egyptian monuments look like Disneyland.

As far as Q&A there is tons of information around. I have seen the caves, I have seen the wall carvings and murals, I have seen remains with surgical cranial incisions and abandoned sites of all kinds. My faith does not rest on that. My witness of the Atonement and the power of the Holy Ghost was obtained at great cost and I treasure that above all things..

[NeuroTypical]

So, Kona,

You say you are sincere in wondering how we respond to your questions. Fine by me - I have no reason to doubt you. But your questions are not really your own, now are they? These aren't things that have occurred to you after reading the scriptures, having missionaries over, and attending our church, now are they? These are stock criticisms that have been well-refuted decades ago, and yet still make the rounds on critical websites, pamphlets, and in people's opinions.

So, question for you. Where are you getting your information? I'd be interested in hearing where you're getting these questions.

How do you guys explain that no Native American DNA matches up to any DNA from Israel?

The short answer is, why would we expect to?

For the long answer, click here, pick a topic, and feel free to delve in to the complexities of this issue.

How about the fact that they can't find any evidence that the BOM cities existed?

We don't know if we have or not. Absence of toponyms means we just don't know what a bunch of sites we've discovered were called. Every now and then, we do make a discovery that matches up with BoM claims. Precolumbian cement. Evidence of ore mining. The existence of a place called NHM in the middle east, that matches up with the BoM's Nahom. Nothing definitive or conclusive, but yes, it is evidence. Whatever source you have for your criticisms refuses to look at our responses to the criticisms.

"Mormon teachings don't teach or say that black skin is a curse. "

Yes they do. Ever read the heading above the chapter in Genesis when Cain kills Abel?

Sure - here it is: Eve bears Cain and Abel—They offer sacrifices—Cain slays Abel and is cursed by the Lord, who also sets a mark upon him—The children of men multiply—Adam begets Seth, and Seth begets Enos. So, what part of this heading says black skin is a curse?

Your source of criticism is a bit, shall we say, biased. I wouldn't be so content to swallow the criticisms as easily as you seem to be.

"The Church did not prevent the blacks from receiving the Priesthood. Heavenly Father withheld that from them until 1978."

Why? I find it hard to believe that God would single out one race as he created all races equal...

You do? You need to spend a bit more time in the Old Testament. God most certainly did NOT make all races equal in his eyes. The Lord promised to make Israel's seed "high above all nations". Priesthood was only given to Levites for a time. Shoot, Jesus even forbade his Apostles to bring the gospel to the Gentiles during his earthly ministry.

Frankly, I've found that the people who produce the criticisms you're swallowing, don't know their own bible - especially the old testament.

So Kona, tell me something - if you want to learn about Christianity, do you go to an Athiest website? If you want to learn about athiesm, do you go to a Christian website? Then why on earth do you go to sources critical of mormonism to learn about mormonism?

You are interacting with us, and responding to our responses. These are actions that speak to your sincerity. I urge you to carefully consider your source, and the agenda behind their claims.

LM

[WANDERER]

quote: If you want to learn about Christianity, do you go to an Athiest website? If you want to learn about athiesm, do you go to a Christian website?

I do.

And if you want to learn about Anti-Mormon sites you go to a Mormon website ; ) ,

[a-train]

It was the Lords will.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but do we have any indication that it was ever the LORD's will that black folks not receive the priesthood at any time in this dispensation?

Isn't it possible, that after Joseph Smith indeed ordained black men to the priesthood and later died, that the brethren were not certain as to whether the priesthood should be extended to blacks only because of their interpretations of scripture (as indicated by President Gordon B. Hinckley in his interview on 60 Minutes) and not because of any revelation in this dispensation?

If that is possible, then isn't it possible that the revelation that came in 1978 was nothing more than a confirmation of the LORD's will that had been the same all along from the days of Joseph Smith wherein black men DID get ordained?

-a-train

[Guest Malcolm]

Kona:

I have thought carefully my words today. I wanted to express myself honestly but without anger.

I no longer believe you are a genuine investigator. I personally find this deceptive approach you have taken a waste of time and an insult to my intelligence. Feel free to disagree with LDS theology, doctrine and history and move on. The questions and arguments you bring here have been raised for 100 years and you have been spending quite some time reading some of them and, I can tell you, the site has not been updated in quite sometime.

You spend your time asking insipid question trying to engage in a useless exercise. Do you believe for a second that your questions are sufficient to shake my faith and testimony of the Gospel?

I say this with the out most humility. The day you stand before our Savior, Jesus Christ to account for your life, only in that day you will know and understand what I have come to understand already on account of my faith. I am a living witness of the power of repentance and prayer and of the tender mercies of God. When I found myself my body broken and alone, at the end of my life and in the middle of a raging storm, I cried his name. And the wind stood still, and the Spirit whispered to me. I listened and from the bottom of the pit he raised me and I lived.

I sought the same spirit and the same voice until I found it. I think you trample among the stones in the dark, echoing tired words of those that spend their time spewing venom and lies for they sense their hope is incomplete.

Go in peace and I hope you find a way to be happier.

[Iggy]

And if you want to learn about Anti-Mormon sites you go to a Mormon website ; ) ,

No. You. Won't. At lds sites you will not find one iota or one tittle of anti anything. At lds based forums you will be encouraged to steer clear of anti sites.

[a-train]

Kona:

I have thought carefully my words today. I wanted to express myself honestly but without anger.

Malcom, is there any reason for us to determine the underlying sincerity of posters in this domain? Perhaps someone is completely lying about their identity and trying to bait us into all sorts of ridiculous debate and perhaps they are honest good people with honest concerns. Does it matter which is the case? Should we respond differently in one situation rather than another?

-a-train

[ztodd]

Malcom, is there any reason for us to determine the underlying sincerity of posters in this domain? Perhaps someone is completely lying about their identity and trying to bait us into all sorts of ridiculous debate and perhaps they are honest good people with honest concerns. Does it matter which is the case? Should we respond differently in one situation rather than another?

-a-train

I've thought about this question before, and don't know for sure. On one hand I say no but on the other I say it does matter because many people come to this forum and read all the questions and accusations with innocent impressionable hearts, looking for the truth. If people with insincere motives come here, they will likely be asking questions that are based on misinformation. These questions shouldn't even need to be asked if the one posing the questions was sincere about finding out spiritual truth. They are likely just trying to bait the rest of us into a trap, and introduce doubt into the hearts of any who might happen by and see their so called sincere questions. Or perhaps they're only trolling in to get a rise out of us.

I'm not trying to label the original poster in this case, but it is true that the questions that this person presented were most likely not his own that he formulated in search of truth, but were taken from a source that is critical of the church which seeks to disprove the truth of it.

I can't help but feel that a sincere investigator should be doing some research before posting these types of questions here.

Kona, I urge you to research these questions and concerns if they truly are troubling to you. These are some good websites you can start with:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

Main Page - FairWiki.org

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship

LDS FAQ : Answers to LDS Related Questions

Of course, you need to start investigation of the church by reading the book of mormon, rather than worrying about the DNA issue and stuff like that. If you don't even know what's in the book, why would you even care about any possible DNA evidence or archaeological evidence regarding the people in the book? Read the book of mormon, and learn the fundamental principles and doctrines including the priesthood. Why would you care about the priesthood being withheld from blacks if you don't even know what the priesthood really is? Meet with the missionaries and learn all our doctrine. And try to realize that a church is not defined by archaeological evidence. Ya gotta have faith. That's how it is with any church.