I've decided not to investigate the Church any longer.

[WillowTheWhisp]

So, one morning, there I was as usual, walking to work. I always walked unless the weather was really awful as I liked the fresh air and excercise to wake me up in the mornings. I was thinking about my dilemma and really wanting to know if I should commit myself to this. I didn't just want to believe I was doing the right thing. I wanted to KNOW.

I stopped in my tracks. I looked up to the sky (in the vague direction of where I expected Heavenly Father might be) and I gave him a sort of ultimatum. I demanded to know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was all it claimed to be. If it really was the only true church on the earth today, if it really was the only church with the full Gospel, the only one with real priesthood authority handed down from the apostles who received it from Christ himself. I declared that I would not take another step down that road until I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt one way or the other. I was quite demanding.

I requested a burning bush with a voice like the voice which spoke to Moses. There were a few convenient bushes around so I didn't see why God couldn't set fire to one of them and speak to me from it! Of course nothing happened. I was a little bit annoyed but still persevered and said OK if there wasn't going to be a bush, not even a completely new bush in th middle of the road so as not to damage any existing bushes, I would accept instead an angel or two, or maybe a few hundred or a couple of thousand - Heavenly hosts with trumpets, clouds parting and and all that. I looked at the clouds expectantly. And of course - nothing happened.

So I was getting a bit cheesed off by now. I mean I'd been trying out assorted churches for several years and been fairly committed to two for quite a while even though those two criticised and contradicted each other. I wanted to find 'the one'. I wanted to finally settle into a place I wasn't going to move from. I wanted to commit myself to one, but I wanted to be sure it was the right one. I didn't want to go through all the palaver of baptism and find out I'd made a mistake. I wanted to KNOW. I'd been told to opray about it. The scriptures say pray about it. I'd prayed about it. I WAS praying about it and I wasn't going to budge from that spot until my prayer had been answered!

How arrogant can you get? I was demanding that God should provide me with undeniable evidence (despite the fact that I had read about Laman and Lemuel who saw an angel and still went off the rails).

Then I said to God, "It's not fair. I really want to know. There are all these churches and I want to know which one to go to. When Joseph Smith was in this same situation and he prayed to you for an answer you didn't leave him in any doubt. You didn't just send angels you came to him in person and you spoke to him in person. He couldn't doubt after that. I want something as impossible to doubt as that."

Then I got my answer. It came as clearly as someone standing next to me speaking calmly and quietly. It said, "Why are you asking for an answer which you already have?"

And I realised it! I believed that Joseph Smith had spoken with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ face to face. I'd just told Heavenly Father that I believed that. If I believed that, then everything else fell into place. Joseph did have that vision, he was visited by Moroni, he did translate the golden plates, the priesthood was restored and there is a church on the earth today which has the full authority and the full Gospel of Jesus Christ. I knew it already. I just didn't realise that I knew it!

Sorry this is such a long-winded post but I just wanted to let you know Kona that I know exactly where you are coming from and why you are reading everything you can and investigating rather than just accepting what somebody else tells you. The only way you can really investigate is to look at all the evidence and sometimes some of that evidence is presented by the defense and sometimes it is presented by the prosecution. But in the end the only way you will ever know the truth is to ask Heavenly Father to tell you. Then listen to the answer when he does.

[tree]

a-train , thank you for setting me back on the straight and narrow, KONA WELCOME!!!!!! and i am sorry for losing my composure. may the holy spirit speak his truth to you and give you that awesome peace that passes all understanding. your friend, tree

[WANDERER]

Willow I really get what you are saying. The internet is very eclectic and I find myself reading various things Kona:

anti-Morman, ex-Mormon, various different Mormons,pro-Morman sites and spam comments, Mormans going through their own searches for truth,various denominations including Non-Christian that look at definitions of faith,church history : Morman and various, wikipedia, FAIR, blogs. Anything and everything. This is the information age and I think having skills to critique information is important: source, bias, first-hand and second-hand information sources and so on.

My mother initially left church as a choice: so as a kid I fronted up alone to Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, AOG, Salvation Army, Christadelphian (my friend took me along, what is it with hats? They promptly baptised me LOL. It was very hot and I had no objection) before finally deciding to call the family non-denominational and support a pentecostal church. I was a twelve year old baptised and confirmed Catholic at that stage (believing that if you were going to support a church you might as well go with the original). My grandmother wept over that...apparently the family had been protestant forever according to her and this was not good news, which is probably what affected my Mum's final decision on the topic. Attending a pentecostal highschool I underwent a course on the history of protestant churches with a bit of a new light on Catholicism and it's history which I've kind of applied to all denominations. Oh, enter a third baptism. Churches in general have controversial histories and on the topic of Cain I'm aware that quite a few of them that point the finger aren't in the position to do so. The pentecostal experience taught me enough about immorality and 'issues' within the church to last a lifetime. I've had a friend that was SDA and I did a bit of the vegetarian thing and had many talks. I remember driving her to church and I ended up sitting outside the church in the car and she didn't go in to the service because we ended up having a serious conversation about a problem I was having. Mormon missionaries visited often enough, Mum always chatted with them. We even met a female Mormon missionary who did help us out with goat milking LOL. Although conversion to pentecostal meant changes in that respect.

So my background means that I'm innoculated to some extent. I find myself understanding things I had questions about as a young adult and the reading is helping to clarify things for me.

I was reading Alma the other day and degrees of faith (I'm quite liking this book and I'm sorry I have to admit I was a little bit lost reading Nephi). Alma speaks to me because it's kinda more of what I am going through and I'm finding it easy reading.

Anyway that's kind of where I'm at Kona. If I come to the conclusion that LDS is not for me, and I haven't, I think it's been a very good thing being an investigator and it has had a positive effect on my life. People can make of it what they want and they probably will...but that's between me and God. I guess that no matter how much I read that is the only real confirmation.

I have to admit I am troubled by this thread a little. But into God's hands it goes : ) .

[Misshalfway]

Dorsey - I am NOT a liar. That statement really makes me mad.

I'm simply seeking the truth.

To all those wondering yes most of my dribble has come from a anti-Mormon website. A Christian friend pointed it out to me. Why did I start this thread then? Because I actually believed what that site said. Stupid move I guess.

I apologize for attacking everyone's faith instead of seeking answers for myself. Some of the websites you guys sent me to answered my questions.

The worlds against us aren't they? Wow...

I'm going to go back to Church. I'm going to start reading and pondering my scriptures more.

I have a testimony. A very weak and small one but it's a testimony.

I haven't responded to many questions here partly due to the quote button - it's a pain to work with on multiple replies.

Please do NOT call me a liar again. Everyone goes through trials.

You HAVE a testimony!! Who cares about how big it is. You KNOW you have one! That is huge! Happiness to you.

[Misshalfway]

Willow I really get what you are saying. The internet is very eclectic and I find myself reading various things Kona:

anti-Morman, ex-Mormon, various different Mormons,pro-Morman sites and spam comments, Mormans going through their own searches for truth,various denominations including Non-Christian that look at definitions of faith,church history : Morman and various, wikipedia, FAIR, blogs. Anything and everything. This is the information age and I think having skills to critique information is important: source, bias, first-hand and second-hand information sources and so on.

My mother initially left church as a choice: so as a kid I fronted up alone to Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, AOG, Salvation Army, Christadelphian (my friend took me along, what is it with hats? They promptly baptised me LOL. It was very hot and I had no objection) before finally deciding to call the family non-denominational and support a pentecostal church. I was a twelve year old baptised and confirmed Catholic at that stage (believing that if you were going to support a church you might as well go with the original). My grandmother wept over that...apparently the family had been protestant forever according to her and this was not good news, which is probably what affected my Mum's final decision on the topic. Attending a pentecostal highschool I underwent a course on the history of protestant churches with a bit of a new light on Catholicism and it's history which I've kind of applied to all denominations. Oh, enter a third baptism. Churches in general have controversial histories and on the topic of Cain I'm aware that quite a few of them that point the finger aren't in the position to do so. The pentecostal experience taught me enough about immorality and 'issues' within the church to last a lifetime. I've had a friend that was SDA and I did a bit of the vegetarian thing and had many talks. I remember driving her to church and I ended up sitting outside the church in the car and she didn't go in to the service because we ended up having a serious conversation about a problem I was having. Mormon missionaries visited often enough, Mum always chatted with them. We even met a female Mormon missionary who did help us out with goat milking LOL. Although conversion to pentecostal meant changes in that respect.

So my background means that I'm innoculated to some extent. I find myself understanding things I had questions about as a young adult and the reading is helping to clarify things for me.

I was reading Alma the other day and degrees of faith (I'm quite liking this book and I'm sorry I have to admit I was a little bit lost reading Nephi). Alma speaks to me because it's kinda more of what I am going through and I'm finding it easy reading.

Anyway that's kind of where I'm at Kona. If I come to the conclusion that LDS is not for me, and I haven't, I think it's been a very good thing being an investigator and it has had a positive effect on my life. People can make of it what they want and they probably will...but that's between me and God. I guess that no matter how much I read that is the only real confirmation.

I have to admit I am troubled by this thread a little. But into God's hands it goes : ) .

You seem like a fascinating individual. I envy your varied religious experience. I am sure that God could really use a person such as yourself.

[WANDERER]

Miss Halfway thankyou for saying so. Joseph Smith said he investigated churches (and I'm not kidding myself that my testimony on that in any way compares, just identifying it as an investigator pathway that is not a singular occurrence sp?).

I began reading Alma at something like 1 in the morning and drop-dead tired and wanting to read more. Could I stay awake to read another page? You have to laugh. The longest book in the BoM.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It was the fact the Joseph Smith had investigated many churches which eventually led me to my testimony (sorry the posts were so lengthy that most people probably didn't read them)

[Iggy]

It was the fact the Joseph Smith had investigated many churches which eventually led me to my testimony (sorry the posts were so lengthy that most people probably didn't read them)

Oh YES I did too read them, the entire thing too. How could someone not read (listen) to a heartfelt testimony??

I tingled and had goosebumps from it. (that is just one of the ways I feel the truthfulness of something) Same goosebumps and tingling I get when I read or hear How Great Thou Art.

Thank You, Willow for your beautiful testimony.

Heather- can we get a Kiss on the Cheek smilie? Please. Thanks

[Maya]

There is a family I know here their lastname is kona... name is noit from around here they have moved in this country... and in my norwegean it means wife....

I hope you`ll find the truth behind all that nonsence around!!

Anyway you know where to find us if you need us.

[Aelswyth]

What are these words actually saying? I think you have mis-read them to mean: "Dear Joseph, if you manage to live till you're 85 then I'll come and visit you for a personal chat." But it is absurd, I think, to intimate that the second coming or even a secret visit to earth by Jesus would hinge on anybody's life expectancy, or to say that the whole thing was called off because Joseph Smith died at 34(?).

Instead, the meaning is more like: "I am coming in [1800 whenever] and if you live that long you'll get to see it." Grammatically speaking, this passage describes when the second coming will happen, regardless of Joseph Smith's life span.

However, I would believe that any guess on setting a date is automatically wrong and Jesus would never cave in to anyone by ever giving any kind of hint other than what he has already said. We have already been told what kinds of signs to look for preceding His coming.

Kona: do not abandon faith, seek ever more diligently for the truth.

Interestingly, there are some who believe that this prophecy did come true in the person of Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith. I'm not really convinced by their arguments, but there are some fascinating parallels between his life and the various prophecies of Christ's coming. There is a paper somewhere online called "Latter-day Saint (Mormon) Prophecies Fulfilled by the Baha'i Faith". It's an interesting read, though as I said, I'm not convinced by a long shot. Some of it seems like a bit of a stretch.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Oh YES I did too read them, the entire thing too. How could someone not read (listen) to a heartfelt testimony??

I tingled and had goosebumps from it. (that is just one of the ways I feel the truthfulness of something) Same goosebumps and tingling I get when I read or hear How Great Thou Art.

Thank You, Willow for your beautiful testimony.

Thanks Iggy.:) I was afraid that I had waffled on so much that I might have bored everyone to tears and their eyes glazed over from trying to read it all!!!

[kona0197]

I read it but the purple text made it a bit hard to read...

[Abraham]

I is always amazing to me how someone will put Joseph Smith under an atomic-type microscope and judge him by misinterpretations - isn't that exactly what the Saduceess and Pharisees did to the Savior? I appreciate that the same claims made against Joseph are evident throughout the scriptures, as JS is good company with the Savior. I also liked the rhetorical question, "Where will you go now?", as no other church has authority (they claim it is not necessary), or have a prophet.

To paraphrase a quote from Elder Holland, Joseph could never have been a good man, a memorable frontier prophet, an above average man. Either he was the prophet he said he was or he was a deceitful deceiver. Let's call it as it is. He claimed to have seen God. Either it is true or not. No amount of scientific analysis can prove it. The Holy Spirit alone can cofirm that verity.

Now, you have the right and free agency to worship God according to the dictates or your own conscience, so I will not try to 'convince' you here. However, what you believe has no bearing on the truth.

Best of luck to you as you wander, ponder, and seek for the light.

Abraham.

[Alaskagain]

Abraham, I'm not sure who you are addressing your post. Kona has already cleared up some of his/her confusion, and is working on faith-strengthening exercises. A kind word might go far.

Or were you responding to someone besides Kona?

[WANDERER]

*Paints target on back*. I'll claim the gnat post.

I don't understand how seriously seeking God can be judged at all...we'd be short if Joseph Smith hadn't / don't you think? And as an investigator reading about him seems a good thing to me.

It would be a pretty poor effort if I didn't.

However......what you believe has no bearing on the truth.

[NateHowe]

Investigation is an important process, and that often includes finding and considering contrary views. However, in seeking out this information, we must sort the reliable from the unreliable, the helpful from the distracting.

Those who are dead-set against the Church are not reliable sources for the doctrines of the Church. They may have opinions to consider, but as far as proclaiming and teaching the doctrine of the Church, they have no authority in the matter.

Further, a sensible investigation will rely more heavily on the most official sources. I would not investigate Christianity exclusively by speaking with Atheist groups, Muslim leaders, and self-proclaimed ex-Christians. I would begin with the Bible, the most accepted text in Christianity. I would talk to Christian ministers. I would talk with common Christian people. I would learn what I could historically about Jesus Christ.

Does it seem like Wanderer is doing this, as it applies to Mormonism? Yes, as far as I can tell from what he has told us. He is reading the Book of Mormon, which is the keystone of our religion, with real intent. He has spoken with ministers of the Church. He participates in this forum, which includes many members of the Church. He is searching for more knowledge. His approach seems sound.

My advice, Wanderer, is simply to sift well. Those with axes to grind are not a good gage by which to measure any group. Take those documents and ideas which are most relevant to your most important questions, and lay the rest aside until you receive clear answers to the most fundamental questions.

[LDSgirl]

Kona,

I'm a convert to the church and very happy with joining. I respect your right to choose your own path. Take care!

[crytsprospect]

Ok I have just read all 9 pages of this forum. I ate my Popcorn cheered, was angry,sad and in awe at times. Here is what I got from it.

1. be careful not to aks to many questions because you might be accused of all kinds of evil.

2. Members of this church are sometimes very protective and run off at the keyboard without thinking. Anti Mormon stuff all has reasonable answers and we should always be happy to repeat ourselves with the info we know.

3. Some got the negative road this was taking and realized the right way and corrected their actions.:) way to go tree.

4. Some like to make their point with sarcastic humor^_^ I get it and enjoy

5. Many of you have such wonderful testimonies and I LOVE learning from you all. Wanderer YOU are AWESOME

Kona you keep searching and praying the truth will come to you in your timeand from all I know and belive the truth is there for you to find but remember on this earth nothing is 100% there will always be questions.

When President Hinkley died I was watching BYU TV and they showed a segment from 60 Minutes that had a relative of the late Pres Benson slamming the church , I was so impressed with Pres H's comments he was calm , sweet as always and just said basically it was sad this person felt this way and he was entitled to his opinion. I am not quoting so if you look it up through BYU Broadcasting you can find it exactly . It was the love and paitence he showed when he was talking about this person. Just like a child who had lost his was. Christ like you know. Even if someone is stiring the pot so to speak should we treat him any different.

PEACEFULLY, QUIETLY, REPEATEDLY, TEACH THE TRUTH

I enjoy you all and learn so much

just remember to PLAY NICE :bighug:

[Snow]

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

How do you feel about prophets from the bible who's prophecies have failed?

[ztodd]

Another thing:

How do you guys explain that no Native American DNA matches up to any DNA from Israel?

How about the fact that they can't find any evidence that the BOM cities existed?

Or the fact that after all those battles in the BOM we have never found any of those old weapons?

Why haven't we found any of the money they used?

Check out bookofmormonevidence.org - we're watching their DVD right now- it is awesome. Check out their FAQ section and buy a DVD if you feel so inclined.

[kona0197]

Nevermind...

[sixpacktr]

Here are some of the prophicies of Joseph Smith that did not come true:

Jesus would have returned in 1891 (Documentary History of the Church (DHC) 2:182)

The Civil War would have poured out upon all Nations (D&C 87:1-3)

The wicked of Smith's generation would have been "swept from off the face of the land" (DHC 1:315)

A temple would have been built in Independence Missouri by the generation living in 1832 (D&C 84:4,5)

Look up False Prophet sometime in your Bibles. I will track down that scripture later.

Hi Kona,

To answer these charges:

1. Joseph himself stated in the same section that he didn't know the meaning of the answer he rec'd regarding Christ's return: whether Christ's 2nd coming would happen or that he (Joseph) would die and see his face. So that was never Joseph's 'prophecy'.

2. The Civil War was to be the start of war being poured out against all nations. If you look at the history of the world from that time, you can see that this has been the case.

3. The wicked being swept off of the face of the earth. The Civil War was a brutal and bloody affair. It touched nearly every family in the nation. The Mormons stayed out of it. They were tucked safely away in the West while the country tore itself apart. Jackson County Missouri was the sight of much bloodshed. The Raiders from Kansas did a lot of damage there, as they were anti-slavery, while the settlers of Missouri were pro-slavery. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that Jackson county was wiped 'clean' as it were, but that may have been a faith promoting rumor.

4. The temple in Jackson county. The 'unfulfillment' of that prophecy is to be hung upon the behavior of the Saints, not Joseph. They lost the privilege of building that temple because they didn't keep the covenants (the United Order) that they had made, and the Lord chastised them for it.

I noticed another area where you stated some things about the BoM. I don't know anything about DNA or those types of things, but to be honest, I don't believe anything a scientist 'finds' anymore, because they do more research and things change all the time. What I do know is that the BoM is true, and that there were 3 men that both saw the Angel Moroni and held the plates, and 8 men saw and held the plates. Of those 11 men, I think 8 of them fell away from the church, some of them becoming bitter enemies of Joseph's. But NONE of them recanted their testimony, even after it became burdensome (David Whitmer). My testimony relied upon their's first until I gained it for myself.

I was at the Hill Cumorah and Sacred Grove today. All I can say to you is that it is true, no matter what the world says...

[kona0197]

Thanks.