How Souls Are Created In Heaven?

[Gaea]

Is It Likely That, All Of Gods Children Are Born From Gods Light, If We Have A Heavenly Mother, Her Light Also Connects With The Light Of God. Physical Creation Is Thus Not Needed.

The Celesrial Kingdom Is Light, The Space That We Are Born Into Is The Outer Darkness, The Reason Is Say This Is Because, Darkness Cant Posibly Exist Around The Celestial Kingdom. If The Outer Darkness Was Outside Of The Celestial Kingom Then The Celestial Kingdom Woulg Be InSide The Outer Darkness.

What Im Trying To Say Is, Satan Was Condemed Out Of The Celetial Kingdom Into Darkeness,Thus Darkness Is The Space Our Earth Is In. Though There Are Many Voids In Space That Have The Potential Of Destoying The Space Our Earth Is In.

Back to The Topic....

God Is Light, And So Is Heavenly Mother As You Put It. But That Would Also mean That heavenly Mother Created The Universe Too. Is She Not Also A God Of Creation Or Is She Not Equal To God. If She Did Not Create The Universe Too, Then Is That Not Abit Sexist and That She Is More As Slave That Create Children For God.

Now, I Know This. God Is Light And So Is Heavenly Mother, They Do Not Create Children Phisicaly, Their Light Joins As One In The Light Of Creation, Which Is The Celestial Kningdom As You Put It. God Creations Also Exist In The Light Of Creation.

When God Created The Light, He Created The Sun And Thats The Light In The Darkness. The Light Bursted Into The Universe As It Is Now. Other Wise The Bible Would teach That God Created Many Lights In The Dark. The Darkness Was Seperated From The Light, So God Made The Earth A Sphere So It Was Not Flat And Thats How The Sun Light Was Devided From Darkness. Day time And Night Time Is Seperated In Different Parts Of The World Because The World Spins Round.

Back to The topic....

So, Light Joins With Light And That Creates New Light Which Become Born On The Earth The Moment A New Child Is Born. That Light Or Soul, Maintains There Light And Makes It Stronger In The Mortal Life. Then They Return Back To The Light Of Creation If They Did Not take on Darkeness Into There Light.

Conclusion....

We Are All Souls Of The Light Of Creation, We Are Created By Gods Light And Heavenly Mothers Light And That Means, Pure And Eternal Beings Dont Need To Engage In Primative Creation.

[Gwen]

isn't this basicly the same question or topic you already started about if god would have sex to create his children? weren't you already told to keep one thread per question? hummm

[WANDERER]

Gaea, are we still talking about Christianity here?

[tubaloth]

The Celesrial Kingdom Is Light, The Space That We Are Born Into Is The Outer Darkness, The Reason Is Say This Is Because, Darkness Cant Posibly Exist Around The Celestial Kingdom. If The Outer Darkness Was Outside Of The Celestial Kingom Then The Celestial Kingdom Woulg Be InSide The Outer Darkness.

This assuming that Outer Darkness is more of a space, then a location like Celestail Kingdom. You are assuming that outer Darkness is just everything that is left over, and that Celestail Kingdom is inside this space. I don't think I have ever thought of it this way. I think of Outer Darkness just as a nother location as any of places we lived (either Pre-mortal life, Spirit world or what).

Now, I Know This. God Is Light And So Is Heavenly Mother, They Do Not Create Children Phisicaly, Their Light Joins As One In The Light Of Creation, Which Is The Celestial Kningdom As You Put It. God Creations Also Exist In The Light Of Creation.

This probably isn't that far off. we do know that Light is what gives Life to everything. But the exact way children are "born" or begotten" to Heavenly Parents, we don't know.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Gaea,

You are asking good questions(thought-provoking). However, there are some things we don't know. Do we know all the specific dealings and workings of God. No. Why? Because He is an infinite and eternal being. The finite cannot comprehend infinity. For instance, We cannot comprehend worlds without number.

Some questions though, such as this, there is speculation as all men can think. But, the blunt answer is we don't know, and there is no need to know(at this time). It has no bearing on men working to salvation from this mortal probation(life on this Earth, subject to temptation).

[Hemidakota]

Old Journal entries:

Pistis Sophia says that without light, matter is inert and helpless. Reminds me of the mortal flesh, without the spirit, it falls helplessly to the ground – in a motionless condition. Inert matter must be improved upon by the action of light. According to these texts, one has to put into it some animating principle. Whenever that active principle is withdrawn, the matter at once falls back into its original lifeless, inert condition. It's like removing an electric current from a fluorescent tube. The tube shines as long as the charge goes through it; remove the charge, and it becomes lifeless, thus giving off no light for the room.

"Inert matter must be improved by the action of light," and whenever the active principle is withdrawn, it at once falls back into its original lifeless, inert condition. This vitalizing principle is referred to by the early church seers as "the spark," which is required to bring life to inert chaotic matter.

The Second Coptic Gnostic Work- "Without this spark, there is no awareness,"

Meaning, there is no consciousness. What? Am I referring this spark as consciousness? Let provide an analogy to explain what I am referring too; prior in entering a store, when an object falls into the path of an infra-red beam from the top of the door pointing camera, it sends a electrical signal to the mechanical arm to open the door. This process is not dependent in making any rational decisions on whether to let you in or not. The system is not thinking at all and purely automatic. Awareness or consciousness must be added to the camera electrical makeup, or it has no mind at all. That is the difference: things just automatically reacting, or, having a mind. Refer back to Lehi in 2nd Nephi, when the term ‘to act’ [awareness], or ‘to be acted upon’ [automatically reacting]. This is core of intelligence as we know it refer too as consciousness.

I now need to correct the gods in-charge of those long term memory neurons, to find additional stored knowledge. If my memory serves me right, outer-darkness is the absent of light or known as Dark Matter [science community]; for us it is chaos.

[tree]

these are some very deep questions, ive always thought things like this trying to figure them out myself, i dont see any harm in wondering , just as long as you dont say it is fact. ever since i was 10yrs old ive had questions like these, people say i think to much but at the same time it was some of those questions that brought me to the lds church. the truth is for right now we dont know , if and when god see's fit, we will know. god bless, tree

[Elgama]

these are some very deep questions, ive always thought things like this trying to figure them out myself, i don't see any harm in wondering , just as long as you don't say it is fact. ever since i was 10yrs old I've had questions like these, people say i think to much but at the same time it was some of those questions that brought me to the lds church. the truth is for right now we don't know , if and when god sees fit, we will know. god bless, tree

I love your view Tree for me the freedom to think like this is a testimony builder and part of what I loved about being LDS - thanks for bringing it up Gaea: - what is your religious background? sometimes you ask questions I would expect from someone with a Wiccan/Pagan background but you don't have enough knowledge of those religions to be one?

Like the others have said a lot of things we are not at the stage in our learning and progression to even try to comprehend but its amazing to think about - I suspect the Celestial Kingdom, and Outer Darkness are very different from what we comprehend now. How God creates will be different to how we imagine but everything we have on Earth was created by God so thinking of procreation as evil is just wrong on so many levels - food will no doubt have its form in the eternities as will all the functions our bodies now have with more added to them. Everything in scripture is a shadow of things to come as I believe everything on Earth is a shadow of things to come in eternity we can learn from what we have now but it will also be different

-Charley

[darrel]

I agree that we do not know now nor can we explain the myteries of God.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts neither are my ways your ways, sayeth the Lord.

For as the Heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55: 9-10)

To speculate or try to comprihend these things can create a stumbling block for some. It is something you cannot prove but must confirm and accept through prayer and faith. No amount of debate or opinion will explain it.

This is why a Prophet is essential to help understand the scriptures and why a restoration was needed to help clear up the confusion in the world.

[Dear434]

I just have one question (possibly more to come). Do Mormons believe the flesh is evil or sinful?

[Dear434]

If "sex" or "procreation" (be fruitful and multiply) is ordained of God, then the union between a husband and his wife (the two shall become one flesh) is holy, sanctified and the children which are produced from such a union is a BLESSING. So, why do Mormons get so upset over the phrase "Celestial Sex"?

[Elgama]

If "sex" or "procreation" (be fruitful and multiply) is ordained of God, then the union between a husband and his wife (the two shall become one flesh) is holy, sanctified and the children which are produced from such a union is a BLESSING. So, why do Mormons get so upset over the phrase "Celestial Sex"?

like with any large group of people, people's attitude towards sex is different personally it doesn't bother or scare me, but when talking about someone else having sex I would rather not think about it - I mean do you really want to know what your mortal parents get upto behind closed doors or would rather just be aware it happens and then not really think about it? - I feel the same way about my Heavenly Father until its time for Him to give me the birds and the bees talk on an eternal level (I am not saying they have sex but however reproducing occurs) I'd rather not delve too deeply I am not ready to understand. I am in this instance the small child it would be like me sitting my son who is 1 down and explaining sex to him

-Charley

[a-train]

Mormons do NOT believe that flesh or sex within the bounds the LORD has set are evil. Further, there is nothing to suggest that sex in heaven is non-existant. However, we are also fully unaware of the process by which spirits are formed. Any attempts to offer insight are mere speculation.

-a-train

[Traveler]

Is It Likely That, All Of Gods Children Are Born From Gods Light, If We Have A Heavenly Mother, Her Light Also Connects With The Light Of God. Physical Creation Is Thus Not Needed.

The Celesrial Kingdom Is Light, The Space That We Are Born Into Is The Outer Darkness, The Reason Is Say This Is Because, Darkness Cant Posibly Exist Around The Celestial Kingdom. If The Outer Darkness Was Outside Of The Celestial Kingom Then The Celestial Kingdom Woulg Be InSide The Outer Darkness.

What Im Trying To Say Is, Satan Was Condemed Out Of The Celetial Kingdom Into Darkeness,Thus Darkness Is The Space Our Earth Is In. Though There Are Many Voids In Space That Have The Potential Of Destoying The Space Our Earth Is In.

Back to The Topic....

God Is Light, And So Is Heavenly Mother As You Put It. But That Would Also mean That heavenly Mother Created The Universe Too. Is She Not Also A God Of Creation Or Is She Not Equal To God. If She Did Not Create The Universe Too, Then Is That Not Abit Sexist and That She Is More As Slave That Create Children For God.

Now, I Know This. God Is Light And So Is Heavenly Mother, They Do Not Create Children Phisicaly, Their Light Joins As One In The Light Of Creation, Which Is The Celestial Kningdom As You Put It. God Creations Also Exist In The Light Of Creation.

When God Created The Light, He Created The Sun And Thats The Light In The Darkness. The Light Bursted Into The Universe As It Is Now. Other Wise The Bible Would teach That God Created Many Lights In The Dark. The Darkness Was Seperated From The Light, So God Made The Earth A Sphere So It Was Not Flat And Thats How The Sun Light Was Devided From Darkness. Day time And Night Time Is Seperated In Different Parts Of The World Because The World Spins Round.

Back to The topic....

So, Light Joins With Light And That Creates New Light Which Become Born On The Earth The Moment A New Child Is Born. That Light Or Soul, Maintains There Light And Makes It Stronger In The Mortal Life. Then They Return Back To The Light Of Creation If They Did Not take on Darkeness Into There Light.

Conclusion....

We Are All Souls Of The Light Of Creation, We Are Created By Gods Light And Heavenly Mothers Light And That Means, Pure And Eternal Beings Dont Need To Engage In Primative Creation.

I am sorry to do this to you but you have a problem with modern science and physics. Your thinking appears to be stuck in the “Dark Ages”. With the advent of “Relativity” we have been able to understand the paradigm model our “expanding” universe much better. When we speak of an expanding universe we are not just speaking about the universe getting bigger. Bigger is incorrect because the universe is expanding. This means that dimensional space is expanding. If dimensional space is expanding – what is it expanding into?

This question can be most difficult for an uneducated mind because dimensional space is expanding into non-dimensional space. This means that what exist “outside” of our universe is non-dimensional space or singularity. To make this as simple as I can it means that all the “points” outside of dimensional space is the exact same point. I am quite sure from your “Dark Ages” arguments that you are not well versed in modern physics or Relativity. If the Celestial Kingdom (Heaven) is fashioned some what similar to our universe (why would it be less complex) you are off in a very foolish tangent with you question and are about 1,000 years displaced in time.

There are so many flaws in your post I do not know where to start. Is it possible that you could limit yourself to one, perhaps simple notion and we could start from s single premises? If you are going to attempt to mix understanding of science and religion it might help if you started out with something consistent and a logical union of both.

The notion of light and darkness in physics is not as simple as many like to draw the line. I suspect that in reality light and darkness in the divine or spiritual sense (as G-d defines) is not less complex. For example; do you understand why “Dark energy” may not cause gravitational bending? This plays into a most interesting possibility in “separating” light from darkness which is spoken of in scripture. Is it possible that G-d hid something in scripture that was not understood anciently but would have clearer understanding as we draw closer to the “end of time”?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Mormons do NOT believe that flesh or sex within the bounds the LORD has set are evil. Further, there is nothing to suggest that sex in heaven is non-existant. However, we are also fully unaware of the process by which spirits are formed. Any attempts to offer insight are mere speculation.

-a-train

Just one little thought here. Often I wonder about the use of words. G-d never speaks of “sex” in scripture and I believe the term is very misleading. I think the notion from a divine perspective would be better understood as “creation” and “Pro-creation”. With this better understanding perhaps it is easer to see deviant modifications for self gratification that are so prevalent in our society and why such perversions are an affront and threat to the eternal concept of family and thus considered evil by G-d.

The Traveler

[Adeipho]

Is It Likely That, All Of Gods Children Are Born From Gods Light, If We Have A Heavenly Mother, Her Light Also Connects With The Light Of God. Physical Creation Is Thus Not Needed.

.

Thats the most uneducated thing I've heard in a while. But my real reason for posting is to ask why you use so many capitol letters? I Mean Not Every Word Gets An Upper Case Letter. Its impropper English.

[Elgama]

Thats the most uneducated thing I've heard in a while. But my real reason for posting is to ask why you use so many capitol letters? I Mean Not Every Word Gets An Upper Case Letter. Its impropper English.

It could be Gaea isn't English - I mean if I was typing in Arabic I am sure my punctuation and grammer may be a little suspect

-Charley

[a-train]

Just one little thought here. Often I wonder about the use of words. G-d never speaks of “sex” in scripture and I believe the term is very misleading. I think the notion from a divine perspective would be better understood as “creation” and “Pro-creation”. With this better understanding perhaps it is easer to see deviant modifications for self gratification that are so prevalent in our society and why such perversions are an affront and threat to the eternal concept of family and thus considered evil by G-d.

The Traveler

Only in defining the Law of Chastity which is a Celestial law does the LORD limit 'sexual relations' to the 'legally and lawfully wedded', it does not utterly ban sex. Sex itself is therefore not evil within the bounds the LORD has set.

Now, it is not logical to imagine that immortal beings reproduce in exactly the same manner as do mortals. The absence of blood creates an issue. Further, we are aware that Adam and Eve were not able to reproduce until becoming mortal. We simply do not know at this time the physical process of bringing about spirit bodies for eternal intelligences in the celestial world. Could it include sex as we know it? It most certainly could, but it could just as easily not include it.

What is repugnant to LDS persons is the inference that we believe the joy of heaven is simply sexual gratification, a notion which is utterly ridiculous. I am equally disturbed as I hear our media (Satan's minions) tell us the Muslims believe this as well.

-a-train

[Dear434]

Mormons do NOT believe that flesh or sex within the bounds the LORD has set are evil. Further, there is nothing to suggest that sex in heaven is non-existant. However, we are also fully unaware of the process by which spirits are formed. Any attempts to offer insight are mere speculation.

-a-train

How many people do you suppose have been born, lived and died (or are currently living) on this planet since it's creation? If each person had a pre-mortal existence, that's a lot of celestial sex err procreation, going on in heaven.

[a-train]

How many people do you suppose have been born, lived and died (or are currently living) on this planet since it's creation? If each person had a pre-mortal existence, that's a lot of celestial sex err procreation, going on in heaven.

And that is just as much on the earth.

-a-train

[Dear434]

And that is just as much on the earth.

-a-train

The difference being that on earth it happens between different members of the human race. According to LDS Theology, it supposedly happens between God the Father and His wife (or wives depending on who you believe).

[a-train]

The difference being that on earth it happens between different members of the human race. According to LDS Theology, it supposedly happens between God the Father and His wife (or wives depending on who you believe).

Yes, this is true, only we do not know if the creation of spirit bodies requires or includes sex as we know it.

-a-train

[Adeipho]

IS THE SOUL INHERITED OR CREATED? By JAMES AKIN

WHERE does the soul come from? Against the claims of Mormons and New Agers, Christianity teaches the soul does not exist before the body does. But there is still a question of how it comes into being. In Church history there have been two positions on how we get our souls: creationism and traducianism.[From the Latin, tradux = transmit or transfer. This is related to the Latin origin of the word "tradition" (tradere = to hand on or to pass on).] Creationism states the soul is created by God from nothing. Traducianism states it is created by the parents during the reproductive process.

Most theologians have taught creationism, which is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. In the 1950 encyclical in which he dealt with biological evolution, Pope Pius XII stated that "the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God."[Humani Generis 36.]

Protestants are of two opinions on this question. Most Protestant laymen are creationists, but many Protestant theologians are traducianists.[Traducianism is common among Lutheran theologians, but creationism is common among Presbyterian/Reformed theologians.] This is odd because, as Protestant theologians frequently acknowledge, Scripture does not teach traducianism. Traducianism's advocates use philosophical rather than biblical arguments. The main argument takes the form of a dilemma.

1. If God creates the soul, he creates it in either a fallen or an unfallen state. (I Adeipho, would interject here that He creates them in an innocent state as in the garden)

2. If God creates it in a fallen state, he gives it a sinful nature. If he gives it a sinful nature, he is the author of sin. But since God is not the author of sin, he must not create the soul in a fallen state.

3. If God creates the soul in an unfallen state, that would deny the doctrine of original sin, which says all souls inherit sinfulness from their parents. Therefore, God must not create the soul in an unfallen state.

4. If God doesn't create the soul in either a fallen state or an unfallen state, he doesn't create it at all. Therefore, the soul must come from the parents rather than from God. (or as stated above they are created by God in a state of innocense)

This argument is unsound. Creationists reply that God creates the soul but that at creation it is infected by the parents with sin. Thus God is responsible for the creation of the soul, while the parents - ultimately our first parents, Adam and Eve - are responsible for its fallen state...

...Philosophical arguments alone will not satisfy a traducianist that his position is false (although they usually satisfy him that it is true). Instead, we must turn to Scripture. There are verses indicating the soul comes from God rather than from the parents.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death "the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (RSV). The common-sense interpretation of this is the soul comes from God rather than from the parents.[One may also note that the body comes from God - which, of course, it does, but it comes from him in an indirect manner. God creates the soil, which is taken up by plants, which are eaten by animals, which are eaten by our parents, who make the components that go into our bodies. Ecclesiastes 12:7 contrasts the way our body comes to us from the soil with the way our soul comes to us from God.]

In Isaiah 57:16 God says, "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry, for from me proceeds the Spirit, and I have made the spirit of life." This verse contrasts the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God, with the spirit of life that animates his creatures. Again the common-sense interpretation is that the soul comes from God ["The spirit of life" cannot here be a reference to the Holy Spirit because the text states God made the spirit of life, yet the Holy Spirit is not a created being.]

Hebrews 12:9 says, "Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?" Here our earthly fathers - fathers of our bodies - are contrasted with God - the Father of our spirits. Again we have an indication the soul comes from God rather than from our parents.

The only way to overcome the common-sense interpretation of texts such as these is to find other verses with an even clearer meaning or to show compelling theological reasons why the common-sense interpretation cannot be correct.

Traducianists try to show a compelling theological reason by using the dilemma discussed above, but this attempt fails. This means traducianism fails because, as its advocates admit, there are no verses which clearly teach traducianism. Their case rests on inference. We must therefore conclude that creationism is more biblically and theologically cogent than traducianism. Souls are created by God rather than by parents.

A question arises of when God creates the soul and infuses it into the child. The common teaching of creationists is that this takes place at conception. There are arguments which support this.

In Hebrew thought the spirit is the principle of life - the thing that makes one alive.["Spirit" can also be translated "breath" in Greek and Hebrew, so "spirit of life" = "breath of life."] As James tells us, "The body without the spirit is dead" (Jas. 2:26). If a spirit is what makes a body alive, then so long as the body is alive it has a spirit. Since the child's body is alive at the time of conception - non-living zygotes do not grow, after all - the child must have a spirit from the moment of conception.

In Psalm 51:5 David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). Thus David already had a sinful nature at the time of conception, even though he had not yet "done anything good or bad" (see Rom. 9:11). But a sinful nature is a spiritual rather than a physical reality. Therefore, David must have had a spirit at the time of conception.

Just stuff to add to the pot

Adeipho

[Hemidakota]

Interesting read

[tiancum]

Fun topic... I will try and give my opinions...on the various parts you have spoken about.

Is It Likely That, All Of Gods Children Are Born From Gods Light, If We Have A Heavenly Mother, Her Light Also Connects With The Light Of God. Physical Creation Is Thus Not Needed.

-by God, you mean the father right?? ...She is"God" too. He does not hold that title independent of her..they are "one God"

-borne?? if you mean God organized the light into spirits, then yes, i concur.

The Celesrial Kingdom Is Light, The Space That We Are Born Into Is The Outer Darkness, The Reason Is Say This Is Because, Darkness Cant Posibly Exist Around The Celestial Kingdom. If The Outer Darkness Was Outside Of The Celestial Kingom Then The Celestial Kingdom Woulg Be InSide The Outer Darkness.

No, Christ's light fills the immensity of space. We are not in outer darkness. Satan has not been cast into outer darkness yet...he went to a telestial sphere...where we are. Where God creates, and the atonement is active there is light. There are designated places of outer darkness. We don't know where they are, or much about them, unless we go there...YIPES

Satan Was Condemed Out Of The Celetial Kingdom Into Darkeness,Thus Darkness Is The Space Our Earth Is In. Though There Are Many Voids In Space That Have The Potential Of Destoying The Space Our Earth Is In.

He was simply "cast out" he went to a "telestial sphere"....i don't mean earth, but a place far enough away from father that he could influence people, but not totally outside the influence of the father. (by the way...when i say father...I mean both of them...Father and mother)

God Is Light, And So Is Heavenly Mother As You Put It. But That Would Also mean That heavenly Mother Created The Universe Too. Is She Not Also A God Of Creation Or Is She Not Equal To God. If She Did Not Create The Universe Too, Then Is That Not Abit Sexist and That She Is More As Slave That Create Children For God.

No one can argue with that...they are coequal. No slavery...silly to even think.

When God Created The Light

He didn't create light. Light=intelligence...it cannot be created or made. It is coeternal with God. He/SHe simply organized it, put it where it needed to be.

He Created The Sun And Thats The Light In The Darkness

Wrong Sun/Son. Christ is the light that shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

He separated light from darkness before he placed the Sun in it's place. (BTW, he did organize, through the Son, the sun, moon and stars...but he did not create them ex-nihlo (sp)(from nothing) Look at the order of the creation.

Everything Christ atoned for was created by the Father (and mother) through Him. "Worlds without # have I created....."