Girls removed from FLDS ranch in texas.

[Maya]

The problem is how many non-members will now associate us with this group because they are ill informed?

Here in Norway (possibly the whole North) we already are assosiated to this. News openly talk about THE mormon church again in this one, alike in Jeffs case. The stupid thing is that only a few ask if it was my church... One has asked and I explainedand she said ... gooood! I was afraid it was your church!

All you get are THE looks!

[Maya]

Fiannan... you are right about religious knowledge in the North, but it is not really, that they are not tought in school, but that kids are not interested, youth is not interested, grownups are not interested... Stil around 80% in Finland, 70% in Norway belong to the states Church...protestants. If you lucky some of them even go to Church on Christmas and in Konfirmation of relatives.

Here in Norway they are going to teach all religions, not like before just Lutheranism. The teachers are either ateists or Lutheran. I sometimes corrected my kids schoolbooks on mormonism...I almost was informed to the childrenscare!

[RachelleDrew]

All I can say about this is good! Get those poor girls out of there, and I hope the people in that compound are served their due.

I don't care if consenting adults want to marry four or five of each other at a time. You can marry 80 women for all I care, just so long as there is consent and you treat them right.

But when you start "re-assigning" women to different husbands against their will, and begin forcing girls who are barely teenagers to marry and birth children that's where I get really upset. I don't care if only a few of the leaders in that community made the decisions, ALL of the adults who still posses free will in that compound are responsible because they let it happen.

Every time I see Warren Jeffs on the tv I feel awfully un-Christian. I just want to smack him.

[Fiannan]

All I can say about this is good! Get those poor girls out of there, and I hope the people in that compound are served their due.

I don't care if consenting adults want to marry four or five of each other at a time. You can marry 80 women for all I care, just so long as there is consent and you treat them right.

But when you start "re-assigning" women to different husbands against their will, and begin forcing girls who are barely teenagers to marry and birth children that's where I get really upset. I don't care if only a few of the leaders in that community made the decisions, ALL of the adults who still posses free will in that compound are responsible because they let it happen.

Every time I see Warren Jeffs on the tv I feel awfully un-Christian. I just want to smack him.

Well, I don't feel violent or anything but everything else you said I totally agree with.

[Moksha]

If a person believes Mohammed is a prophet, and everything he said was true, is he a Muslim or something else?

I understand, the FLDS also follow Joseph Smith and believe in the Book of Mormon. You are undoubtedly right that they are entitled to call themselves Mormon. However, they look like perverted religious cult members with their polygamy and if the media calls them Mormon, it erroneously associates them with us. It should be the responsibility of the media not to promote such misunderstandings.

[Elgama]

Okay, my frame of reference is Scandinavia and Finland (not Ireland or southern Europe). However, is Britain all that high in knowing about basic religion? I mean a recent survey in Britain found that about a third (correct me if I am wrong here) of the people surveyed thought Winston Churchill was a fictional character and that Sherlock Holms was real.

ok I wasn't aware Winston Churchill was a religious figure lol - we get religion in schools and have Songs of Praise on the BBC, then there is good old Sir Cliff everyone knows he is a Christian not to mention the Queen making England an officially Christian Country. And the Welsh have a hymn as a national anthem most Brits know. We have loads of high profile normal Christians, my favourite is personally Michael Ball (have I mentioned that before lol)

This managed to get to number 1 8 years ago so most people know the Lords Prayer

I also don't know anyone who hasn't had at least a Noah's Ark and appeared in a production of Joseph

-Charley

[Fiannan]

You know, this guy might just get the polygamists off the hook:

Newsmax.com - Sect's Lawyer Described As Principled

[Dirk]

This is going to make for an interesting trial

[Fiannan]

This is going to make for an interesting trial

True, and for the life of me why can't these polygamists wait to marry wives when they are 18????? I looked up the ages of women married to Brigham Young and from what I remember all the women were at least 18. I could not care less that the guys might be a lot older, as long as the woman is of legal age then so what? What was the age of Monica when she was dating Bill Clinton?

If these groups would get rid of the early to mid teen bride stuff then any government action against them would be on thin ice. Polygamy will eventually be legal again but actions such as this group will just postpone that day.

[aranyborju]

This discussion is interesting.

I am in Houston right now, and maybe it will pleas people to know that the local news has been VERY careful to remind viewers that what is going on west of here involves a fringe group that is not in any way affiliated with the mainstream Mormon church.

When I first heard a few years ago that Jeffs was moving his compound here I was quietly glad, because I knew that the compound would eventually be raided. Not because Texas is extra harsh or anything, but because it doesn't have the historical baggage involving these groups that Utah and Arizona have.

Also, I am glad to see that most people on this thread acutally understand that this raid is a good thing, that that children were being raped and abused. I was horrified when I read the articles and comments on Deseret News, only to see that many (possibly even a majority of) people think that the FLDS should be left alone, and that the authoruties were wrong to get involved in their "religious practices."

[Fiannan]

This discussion is interesting.

I am in Houston right now, and maybe it will pleas people to know that the local news has been VERY careful to remind viewers that what is going on west of here involves a fringe group that is not in any way affiliated with the mainstream Mormon church.

When I first heard a few years ago that Jeffs was moving his compound here I was quietly glad, because I knew that the compound would eventually be raided. Not because Texas is extra harsh or anything, but because it doesn't have the historical baggage involving these groups that Utah and Arizona have.

Also, I am glad to see that most people on this thread acutally understand that this raid is a good thing, that that children were being raped and abused. I was horrified when I read the articles and comments on Deseret News, only to see that many (possibly even a majority of) people think that the FLDS should be left alone, and that the authoruties were wrong to get involved in their "religious practices."

You know, I am not sure of all the particulars but I hope this is not a case of a catch-22 for the male polygamists -- you know, the technicality that sent Tom Green to jail unfairly.

Many of these polygamists believe that a female should be married by 14 or 15. Many states in the USA have laws that say that a female can marry, with parental consent, at 14, 15 or 16. Many states allow a female to have sex with whoever she pleases at 16 while Mexico and some countries in Europe allow 14 as the legal age of consent (I think most European countries allow 15 or 16 as the legal age) In many Muslim nations a female can marry at the age of 9 since Mohammed took a 9 year old as a wife.

So here is the problem -- let's say you have a 40 year old man who is unmarried and decides to marry a 14 year old -- in many states it's legal with parental consent. Now let's say he decides to marry her 14 year old twin sister -- since he cannot call the second marriage a legal marriage once he goes through his church's marriage ceremony and then consumates the marriage he has technically had sex with a minor and can go to jail as a molester and be put on an offender registery.

I suspect that some of the news reports talking about "registered sex offenders" taking young brides in this church are not your garden variety perverts lurking at grade school playgrounds but instead are falling into the catch-22 I am talking about.

Other reports talk of incest. Well, perhaps. In Utah first cousins cannot legally marry unless they are past the age of reproduction -- rather silly actually since the risk of deformed children in such situations is quite low (Darwin married his forst cousin and had healthy children). Abraham and Sarah had the same father (but that was before the Bible made sibling marriage illegal -- although cousin marriage is legal).

So in Utah first cousins marrying can be classified as incestuous yet in many states in the USA and almost all nations in Europe first cousin marriage is legal and not considered incest. So it's a matter of perspective -- like with abortion...have an abortion in Ireland and it's killing a baby, do it in England and it's a-ok.

So if journalists are playing with terms and creating images of a strange sex cult then they are as guilty of mis-representing the facts as much as those people who made "The Godmakers" twisted the truth to make Mormons look odd and occultish.

[Moksha]

So here is the problem -- let's say you have a 40 year old man who is unmarried and decides to marry a 14 year old -- in many states it's legal with parental consent.

Many states in the United States or the United Arab Emirates?

[NeuroTypical]

Many states in the United States or the United Arab Emirates?

Worldwide Ages of Consent.

US Age of Consent to marry.

From what I can tell, only South Carolina allows a 14 yr old to marry.

LM

[Fiannan]

Many states in the United States or the United Arab Emirates?

No, I am not sure about the UAE but many Muslim nations allow a man to take a wife as young as 9 since Mohammed did it.

[Fiannan]

Worldwide Ages of Consent.

US Age of Consent to marry.

From what I can tell, only South Carolina allows a 14 yr old to marry.

LM

And North Carolina and...gotta look up the rest when I have time. As for New Hampshire:

The law is complicated in New Hampshire. Individuals under the age of 18 may not marry in New Hampshire without parental approval and a judicial waiver. Brides must be at least 13 years of age and grooms must be at least 14 years of age before their parents can apply for a judicial waiver.

[Aphrodite]

So in Utah first cousins marrying can be classified as incestuous yet in many states in the USA and almost all nations in Europe first cousin marriage is legal and not considered incest.

My Grandmother's parents were first cousins and we are all normal :)

Fiannan, I dont like your generalisations of 'european' or british culture. 'England' does not believe abortion is ok, there are laws that allow it, as like many of you americans keep saying, we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE, but there are major pro-life groups who strongly disagree also.

How about if I said 'AMERICA' is ignorant to news in the rest of the world, all they eat are hamburgers, and they are all obese???

My personal opinion on this is what racheldrew said. These people are sickos. Any man who wants to marry or sleep with a young teenage girl is considered a paedophile over here. We take child abuse extremey seriously, obviously unlike some states in America. They are sick.

In fact, anyone who wants lots of 'wives' full stop has a twisted mind and can only 'get away' with sleeping with lots of women at the same time by using religion as an excuse. Ugh. Makes me feel nauseous.

[lds9999]

Michael Otterson, official Churck spokesman, just put this video on Youtube about the situation:

[Fiannan]

Fiannan, I dont like your generalisations of 'european' or british culture. 'England' does not believe abortion is ok, there are laws that allow it, as like many of you americans keep saying, we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE, but there are major pro-life groups who strongly disagree also.

I was dealing with laws within nations and how they differ on recognizing something as fundamental as life. Ireland makes abortion illegal and Britain has one of the world's most liberal laws regarding termination of life.

How about if I said 'AMERICA' is ignorant to news in the rest of the world, all they eat are hamburgers, and they are all obese???

You'd be more right than wrong -- but as I have read Britain has caught up in the latter category.

My personal opinion on this is what racheldrew said. These people are sickos. Any man who wants to marry or sleep with a young teenage girl is considered a paedophile over here. We take child abuse extremey seriously, obviously unlike some states in America. They are sick.

Just recently read an article about a 16 year old female in England asked her 30-something boyfriend to move in with her (she still lives at home) and that's okay. Just thought I'd throw that in. By a psychological perspective a man who either is attracted to, or married to, a female who has reached reproductive age is not a paedophile. A paedophile is an individual attracted to boys or girls under that point. Laws are based on societal norms and may or may not be in accordance with the scriptures (the Bible has many instances of young females married to older guys -- Mary, the mother of Jesus, was 14 when she conceived Jesus).

Oh, and was there a public outcry in 1960 when the Disney movie "Sleeping Beauty" was released? Seems to me the princess who had reached the age of marriage was 16.

In fact, anyone who wants lots of 'wives' full stop has a twisted mind and can only 'get away' with sleeping with lots of women at the same time by using religion as an excuse. Ugh. Makes me feel nauseous.

Wow, that says a lot about the prophets central to the religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam doesn't it? If they were just perverts then I guess everything they said about religion has to be suspect too, doesn't it? As for the laws of nature (if we want to go that route instead) mammal spedies with males being larger than females generally are polygamist -- including human primates. Let's see, if monogamy is contrary to nature, and most religions are based on the teachings of polygamists...

[Captain-Jack]

My Grandmother's parents were first cousins and we are all normal :)

Fiannan, I dont like your generalisations of 'european' or british culture. 'England' does not believe abortion is ok, there are laws that allow it, as like many of you americans keep saying, we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE, but there are major pro-life groups who strongly disagree also.

How about if I said 'AMERICA' is ignorant to news in the rest of the world, all they eat are hamburgers, and they are all obese???

Hamburgers are great, just need to be taken in moderation.

My personal opinion on this is what racheldrew said. These people are sickos. Any man who wants to marry or sleep with a young teenage girl is considered a paedophile over here. We take child abuse extremey seriously, obviously unlike some states in America. They are sick.

I do agree that there is a line that is crossed when someone much older wants to be with someone much younger. However, in the U.S. you legally become an adult at 18. Why is that, because physically that is when most have mature bodies? You're counted as an adult but you can't drink or smoke, but you can run around from bed to bed and get STD's? I sometimes wonder about our laws here, some just don't seem to make sense. If someone 25-30+ years old wants a 15 year old, yes, something is wrong. But also laws distort perceptions in my opinion. I still believe based on what news has been reported that there were horrid things being done to unwilling young women, however, because reality is all relative, to some it's worse and others not.

In fact, anyone who wants lots of 'wives' full stop has a twisted mind and can only 'get away' with sleeping with lots of women at the same time by using religion as an excuse. Ugh. Makes me feel nauseous.

Some people are OK with it, and that includes some women. If a man wants lots of wives, and it is believed to be sick and twisted, we must then apply the same to women who would want many husbands. I am not saying it happens a lot, but I am sure there is someone somewhere that is like that. I am not sure if they slept with all their wives at the same time, but I have to say this, with so many people being open with sexuality and sleeping with different people, but then get upset with polygamy just seems rather redundant to me. We let people who sleep with multiple partners slide with just a scoff, but polygamy is horrible.

That I think is where the separation needs to be. Any time of non-platonic relationship with someone clearly vulnerable is just plain wrong. But if they are all consenting adults, then really we have to stop everyone everywhere from having any premarital relations otherwise we'll all hypocrites to a degree.

Again, I agree with you that it is wrong to do anything with someone underage when the older person is well over 30, but laws and perceptions are so maligned to me it's tough to really judge further than that.

[a-train]

Hamburgers are great, just need to be taken in moderation.

Unless they are made at a local joint and eaten by people who do a lot of physical movement such a skateboarding.

If you don't have a killer local burger joint, you should start one. McDonald's couldn't make a descent hamburger if their life depended on it and their prices are downright rape. Burger King is probably the best of the chains, but its still a crappy chain with annoying, if not scary, advertising. White Castle is simply terrible. Sonic is not even a burger joint anymore, the burgers they have are typically soggy and their fries are awful.

You can get a Big Deal at my local burger joint for $5 flat, consisting of a real burger, great fries, and a large drink of your choice. It comes in a brown bag with no graphics printed on it.

The owners are local and the service is great.

-a-train

[Fiannan]

US Supreme Court building honors controversial religious leader and polygamist with carved mural:

Mohammed

[Shell72]

You know, I am not sure of all the particulars but I hope this is not a case of a catch-22 for the male polygamists -- you know, the technicality that sent Tom Green to jail unfairly.

Many of these polygamists believe that a female should be married by 14 or 15. Many states in the USA have laws that say that a female can marry, with parental consent, at 14, 15 or 16. Many states allow a female to have sex with whoever she pleases at 16 while Mexico and some countries in Europe allow 14 as the legal age of consent (I think most European countries allow 15 or 16 as the legal age) In many Muslim nations a female can marry at the age of 9 since Mohammed took a 9 year old as a wife.

So here is the problem -- let's say you have a 40 year old man who is unmarried and decides to marry a 14 year old -- in many states it's legal with parental consent. Now let's say he decides to marry her 14 year old twin sister -- since he cannot call the second marriage a legal marriage once he goes through his church's marriage ceremony and then consumates the marriage he has technically had sex with a minor and can go to jail as a molester and be put on an offender registery.

I suspect that some of the news reports talking about "registered sex offenders" taking young brides in this church are not your garden variety perverts lurking at grade school playgrounds but instead are falling into the catch-22 I am talking about.

Other reports talk of incest. Well, perhaps. In Utah first cousins cannot legally marry unless they are past the age of reproduction -- rather silly actually since the risk of deformed children in such situations is quite low (Darwin married his forst cousin and had healthy children). Abraham and Sarah had the same father (but that was before the Bible made sibling marriage illegal -- although cousin marriage is legal).

So in Utah first cousins marrying can be classified as incestuous yet in many states in the USA and almost all nations in Europe first cousin marriage is legal and not considered incest. So it's a matter of perspective -- like with abortion...have an abortion in Ireland and it's killing a baby, do it in England and it's a-ok.

So if journalists are playing with terms and creating images of a strange sex cult then they are as guilty of mis-representing the facts as much as those people who made "The Godmakers" twisted the truth to make Mormons look odd and occultish.

You think Tom Green was sent to jail unfairly? You think he was justified in his actions?

[Fiannan]

You think Tom Green was sent to jail unfairly? You think he was justified in his actions?

First: Excellent article on the Texas thing -- Lonsberry

Yes, Green was singled out to make Utah look like it was cracking down on polygamy and was trying to show a new face to the world. Problem was, it blew up in their collective faces. Now do I feel any happiness over this? No, because it made Mormons look bad and hurt missionary efforts.

Now let's see if I remember right, he took a wife who was technically under age but if this had been his first wife (and only wife at the time) it would have been legal to marry her. Opps, polygamist marriages aren't legally recognized, so instead he was guilty of sex with an underage female. Oh wait, her parents gave concent and she just happened to be in her 30s when Utah's legal guys went after Green. The woman did not want Green prosecuted, but the state just had to do it -- Green had been on TV just a few too many times for their peace of mind.

[Aphrodite]

Just recently read an article about a 16 year old female in England asked her 30-something boyfriend to move in with her (she still lives at home) and that's okay. Just thought I'd throw that in. By a psychological perspective a man who either is attracted to, or married to, a female who has reached reproductive age is not a paedophile. A paedophile is an individual attracted to boys or girls under that point. Laws are based on societal norms and may or may not be in accordance with the scriptures (the Bible has many instances of young females married to older guys -- Mary, the mother of Jesus, was 14 when she conceived Jesus).

Who says its ok?? It shows how much you know, because that sort of thing is definitely not normal and Im sure many of the other Brits on the board would agree with me. But someone mentioned a 14 yr old in some states can get married. And THATS ok??? 16 is the legal age of consent here, but that doesnt mean a 16 year old shacking up with a 30 year old is ok.

You'd be more right than wrong -- but as I have read Britain has caught up in the latter category

.

Probably the only thing we'll ever agree on so I thought Id better throw it in.

Some people are OK with it, and that includes some women. If a man wants lots of wives, and it is believed to be sick and twisted, we must then apply the same to women who would want many husbands. I am not saying it happens a lot, but I am sure there is someone somewhere that is like that. I am not sure if they slept with all their wives at the same time, but I have to say this, with so many people being open with sexuality and sleeping with different people, but then get upset with polygamy just seems rather redundant to me. We let people who sleep with multiple partners slide with just a scoff, but polygamy is horrible.

Of course it applies to women!! Its just as sick the other way round.

Sleeping with lots different people is not the same. If you sleep with hundreds, yes I agree its not right. But to use a religious excuse to make it 'ok' is what I find abhorrent. People who sleep around, cheat whatever, dont justify ot with religion. They usually know their behaviour is wrong. Polygamists try to justify it wth religion so people can't argue. Thats what I have a problem with.

Again, I agree with you that it is wrong to do anything with someone underage when the older person is well over 30, but laws and perceptions are so maligned to me it's tough to really judge further than that.

Exactly. Just because it is 'legal' does not mean it is right or good. There are ALWAYS grey areas.

[kona0197]

A-train - you haven't tried Carl's Jr have you?