Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[Maya]

Thanks for lightening the mood there, buddy.

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3,326 posts, a senior member, and you're on here begging the questions you are?? Well, regardless of my confusion, I sincerely trust that you have your reasons. :) I'm probably just too inexperienced on internet forums. No, that is not sarcasm. I really am still very new to this whole thing.

Anyway, I never meant to be condescending, hurtful, and discouraging. Just straightforward. Many of you will learn that I am not a member of this church because my parents raised me in it, social status, or anything related to some inner desire to be "right." I am member of this church for two reasons: 1) the spirit beareth witness to me. 2) It holds the most accountability than any other Christian church. It makes sense, if this life is a "time to prepare to meet God," then of course we will be held accountable for how we used this time. If we screw up, then it will stand as a testimony against us. God wont even have to judge us. We'll judge ourselves.

The same goes for me. If I screw this preparatory time up, I will pay the price. It will not be for me to say, "Oh I think God is not just if He holds me accountable for my actions." Essentially, that is general message behind all statements that start out, "I don't think God would be just/fair/kind/loving if...." Saying things like that will not relieve us of our responsibility. Not to mention the failure of logic being expressed. "I don't believe in God, but I don't think He is this way." If a person doesn't believe in God, how could they possibly know anything about Him?

Personally, I fail to understand how so many churches can say, "Oh just believe and you're ok." I'm sure Heavenly Father is up there saying something like, "Why can't my children just do what I have asked them to do? Why do they always have to make excuses? Why do they always have to change their beliefs to justify their own actions? Why can't anyone just be responsible enough to be accountable for their actions? WHO IS GOING TO TAKE A STAND AND HELP BUILD MY KINGDOM?"

Please don't think I am being contentious or condescending. I know it might sound that way, but that's because of how hurt I feel. What is being manifested in this post is coming ONLY from the heartache I feel. Nothing else. And that heartache is not directed at anyone in particular. I have felt this same heartache for years before I ever got on these forums.

Dont tell me you too have finnish ancesters!?? Your input was well written..me thinks.

Our bishop had a lesson today where he said that truth...it can sometimes be very hurtfull! Yes that is true isnt it... that is why we never can give the truth to people on one plate, it would be too much for them to bear, We can just offer it to them just one helping at the time... to awoid the listener to close the doors. I am trying to learn that but it is very difficult for me (my finnish strait forward mentality) ...it is much easier to throw my truth on someones face right away! After all I know it is true!

I know that hurt... thanks for explaining. :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

Good. When I die and wake up in a REAL paradise, and see GOD or CHRIST in person, then of course I would believe. I would also admit I had been wrong, and bow before them.

That is assuming that you would recognise them. Perhaps if you are not able now to recognise the truth of the Gospel then in the spirit world you may not recognise the Saviour.

[WillowTheWhisp]

My question was: Why would someone die, wake up in a REAL place, with all of the things the Church said would be in in this REAL place, be taught the gospel by exalted beings, and yet choose not to accept it? NONE of that has anything to do with faith. You're projecting your beliefs onto my question.

. . . .

I'm not aware of any doctrine that we will be taught by exalted beings in the spirit world. It is my understanding that the spirits of the non-believers will be preached to by the spirits of the believers. So apart from the fact that they will know that spirits continue to live after bodies have died they will have no evidence that any other LDS doctrine is true. There are plenty of other religions which teach the continuation of the spirit after death - even people who don't believe in God but believe in all kinds of other stuff like re-incarnation. They will probably have their spokespersons too trying to convince the spirits that their very existence is proof of their doctrine.

[VisionOfLehi]

I'm not aware of any doctrine that we will be taught by exalted beings in the spirit world. It is my understanding that the spirits of the non-believers will be preached to by the spirits of the believers. So apart from the fact that they will know that spirits continue to live after bodies have died they will have no evidence that any other LDS doctrine is true. There are plenty of other religions which teach the continuation of the spirit after death - even people who don't believe in God but believe in all kinds of other stuff like re-incarnation. They will probably have their spokespersons too trying to convince the spirits that their very existence is proof of their doctrine.

Correct.

However, after the last resurrection, and the Judgment, when everyone is in their earned Kingdom of Glory, the Celestial will minister to the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial to the Telestial.

[WillowTheWhisp]

But by that time it will be too late to change your mind won't it?

[Moksha]

Go ahead and try it. Choose to believe in Santa Claus. How do you know he’s not real? Have you ever seen him? That doesn’t prove he is not real, just that you do not have enough faith. No, he doesn’t come around to houses every Christmas, but that is probably just a myth about him written by men, one of many. It doesn’t matter because you have chosen to believe in him, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Elphaba

Whether Santa is real or evidence exists one way or the other, isn't the Spirit of Christmas (at least as outlined by Dickens) desirable in itself? Could this not be applied to religion as well?

[VisionOfLehi]

Pretty much.

I mean, even Satan and his False Prophet will bow and acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, but that's not getting them any leeway.

[skalenfehl]

The only answer I can think of, really, is that they would prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom. So it begs the question, why would someone prefer to inherit the Telestial Kingdom over the Terrestrial Kingdom?

If such a thing were proven to be true; I would. Why? I just wouldn't want to spend an eternity with this particular God and a lot of His followers.

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

[sgallan]

Yeah, well I think we define "works" a little differently, and thank goodness for the other part.

[skalenfehl]

Yeah, well I think we define "works" a little differently, and thank goodness for the other part.

How do you define works? I define it as the evidence of my obedience to God's commandments. (Baptism, loving my neighbor, paying tithing, etc)

James 2: 18, 20, 26

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

• • •

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

• • •

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[inthearmsofsleep]

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on. If you don't believe it now, what's going to change that? If you've already been taught the gospel, I don't see why you'd be taught it in the afterlife. You had it once and you turned away from it... and though you still have the chance to accept it in this life, I don't know if that same opportunity will present itself in the next. Also, I'm not sure about what you said concerning Christ being present in spirit prison. Faith is always necessary until it's been tested and becomes knowledge. Faith precedes knowledge.

[sgallan]

How do you define works? I define it as the evidence of my obedience to God's commandments. (Baptism, loving my neighbor, paying tithing, etc)

It is the "ect" where we probably differ the most.

My 'works' are being a hands on father, a teacher, a coach, a mentor, a good citizen, and to try to give more to society than I take. Given that, I figure that any God, or community of that God, that doesn't want me around is also one I don't want to be around either.

[skalenfehl]

Thank you. I tend to agree with the etc, part too. And I have no doubt that God wants you around and wishes the best for you.

[tubaloth]

My mindset is that if I am wrong about something, I will admit it, and wantt to learn more about the truth. . For example, if I die and wake up in a REAL place, such as the REAL spirit prison where EXALTED BEINGS are teaching me the gospel, then yes, because of my traits I will take with me, I will admit I was wrong about my atheism, and be open to what they were teaching me.

I some how doubt this. There isn’t going to be a sign on the wall that says “Welcome to Spirit Prison.”

Unless everything is SHOWN to you, you then believe. If some body teaches that Christ is in the next room do you want to come to him what is your mind set for that? Are you doing what the person says to see Christ on the other side, or are you waiting and say, Nope I’m not moving any farther until Christ comes to me?

Good. When I die and wake up in a REAL paradise, and see GOD or CHRIST in person, then of course I would believe.

So, lets say you wake up in a REAL place, but you don’t see God or Christ, just others like you? You then well change your mind, and say I want to be LDS now?

I would also admit I had been wrong, and bow before them

So you won’t bow until you know you are wrong? And you think God is going to be okay with that?

Do you seriously think if God or Christ stood before you it would just be a minor event?

No I don’t think it would be minor, that is the point of this life is to see Christ’s face! (D&C 93:1). But we work up to that point! Not just expect it to happen.

Do you seriously think if one or the other stood before me, I would say "No thanks," and walk away?

Yes I actually think you would. How would know its Christ. This was the point I was trying to make. Some “REAL” Person comes up to you and says, guess what I’m God, and your mind set well automatically believe that? I don’t think you well. Somebody on this earth says they are a prophet for God, but you don’t believe that. I feel (and I don’t know you well enough to know for sure), but I’m guessing you well ask God for some ID, or can you do something amazing so I know its REALLY you! There is always going to be some doubt in your mind, can this really be Him? What if it isn’t! What if God doesn’t walk up to you, but you have to find him in the room! Would you be able to find him?

I am not struggling at all. I am confident in my beliefs

There is a difference from Beliefs and having Faith.

I have never had an angel appear to me, so this is not applicable.

So, if you did? You would believe?

Yes, I could get my mind around that if I saw evidence of it.

The building block on religion is faith! But even more there is evidence there! Unless I guess you explain it all away.

If a REAL supernatural person came to me, I would have no way of knowing if it spoke truth or not.

Kind of the point I’m trying to make. If somebody came up to you in the next life and say I’m God. You are going to assume that is correct? No, that still won’t be enough!

I have never had any spiritual experience despite my attempts to do so. Why does your experience trump mine?

I don’t know if we can say one Trumps another one! But lack of a spiritual experience isn’t an experience! We seem to be following the whole Idea of the Movie Contact The idea of Faith is hard to explain to one that wants to see everything!

So (I haven't used the word enough) when you read the book of Mormon, when you listen to the prophet and twelve apostles speak, when you keep the (LDS) commandments you feel no different then you do now?

[Moksha]

My 'works' are being a hands on father, a teacher, a coach, a mentor, a good citizen, and to try to give more to society than I take.

These are some of the basics that get short shift in many religious discussions talking about esoteric and sometimes tangential theological matters. You are talking about important day-to-day behavior that should never be overlooked. :)

[drjme]

In the future would you please use one font and one size? Playing with the type makes it difficult to read. Additionally, your attempt to belittle me with the tiny type is juvenile. If your argument can't stand on its own, then please don't respond to my posts.

XD man you seem angry! Yes my queen.

I don't need any evidence, nor did I ask for it. I never made any claims about this, nor was it ever part of my conversation. I have no idea why you think I did.

You are saying you would require to see God, Christ, a spirit world to believe. that is asking for a sign, that is asking for evidence. but then you are firm in your belief there is No God so what sign would be any good.

Did you even read my question? It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with faith.

I already answered your question in a previous post..... and this whole thing has EVERYTHING to do with faith.

My question was: Why would someone die, wake up in a REAL place, with all of the things the Church said would be in in this REAL place, be taught the gospel by exalted beings, and yet choose not to accept it? NONE of that has anything to do with faith. You're projecting your beliefs onto my question.

Of course I am, I'm LDS, you are asking for an LDS perspective on an LDS forum about LDS beliefs. what did you expect?

And the Answer to your question? is because people have the agency to choose to believe. The devils know Jesus is the Christ, yet they choose to deny Him and choose to follow the adversary, and so submitting to their outcome. Why?

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; 4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

It would seem Gods gift is agency, Satan's goal is lead them captive at his will, to surrender our agency impairing our ability to choose the right. Since we are spiritual beings as well as physical (beware I am about to make an assumption) the spirit may well be impaired on the otherside, suffering the effects of 'captivity', as it's intelligence is continuous with or without the body.

I am often dismayed at how presumptuous people like you are. You have no idea what I have or haven't done to gain a testimony. And you think you are in a position to assume you know. You don't.

Ah yes, how presumptuous of me. All I was saying is that if people really want to know they will find out one way or another if they keep their heart and mind open to possibilities. and you have declared there is no God....repeatedly...

Originally Posted by drjme

So you deny any possibility of a God? Closed off your mind and decided completely without any possibility of changing your mind, except upon death?

Yes.

And there it is, the one belief that may stop you from finding out if He is real or not. sorry not judging you, just keeping it real.

If it is not doctrinal then it is mere speculation. I am not interested in anyone's speculation.

Isn't this all just speculation to you?

[Teancum18]

Fifty-nine posts and you are questioning my motives? And you are . . . who?

And no I am not begging the question. I am raising it. Look it up.

Here's a little advice. Don't start a post by being rude, and then say "Oh by the way, I never meant to be condescending." It's a lazy way of being rude because you want to, but don't want to own up to it.

Elphaba

I am sorry you took so much offense to that. I wasn't trying to be rude, however, that's how you took it, and that is important. I tried to explain in the very next sentence (that you failed to quote) that I was chalking all my confusion up to being a forum newbie. Not that I was trying to "question your motives," as you actually ended up doing to me. That's ok, if you felt attacked, I can understand why. Regardless, it wasn't anything against you. I was merely demonstrating how confused I was. But I guess it's easy to take things out of context, isn't it?

[Teancum18]

Elpheba, if you're confident that you will accept the gospel in the spirit world, then I am so happy for you! Honestly, just have fun down here on earth, live the life you want, make the choices you want, be who you want, ignore what you want, do everything you want, and then take care of everything when you can see the truth with your own eyes on the other side. When faith is no longer needed. You are right 100% and I totally agree with all your logic. You've made your point, stuck with it, argued it, and you are right. Case closed for me. Later

[Hemidakota]

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Correct...those who wish not to be Celestialize will attain a kingdom of glory and be filled with joy.

[Hemidakota]

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on. If you don't believe it now, what's going to change that? If you've already been taught the gospel, I don't see why you'd be taught it in the afterlife. You had it once and you turned away from it... and though you still have the chance to accept it in this life, I don't know if that same opportunity will present itself in the next. Also, I'm not sure about what you said concerning Christ being present in spirit prison. Faith is always necessary until it's been tested and becomes knowledge. Faith precedes knowledge.

When they are given the choice between eternal life or spiritual death.

[YellowLight]

Pardon me if I am wrong...no one KNOWS. You have a testimony based on faith. Faith in what others have told you and what you consider a feeling of the holy spirit. Therefore, all will have the opportunity to accept the gospel if the spirit world exists. Just my thoughts.

[Moksha]

Pardon me if I am wrong...no one KNOWS. You have a testimony based on faith. Faith in what others have told you and what you consider a feeling of the holy spirit. Therefore, all will have the opportunity to accept the gospel if the spirit world exists. Just my thoughts.

Knowledge beyond faith is to be found on the other side of the veil.

[Hemidakota]

Yellowlight, if you were referring to the last post [#95], my testimony is not based on faith. I been and will continue until my last dying breath, be 'purified by fire' by the Holy Spirit through endless trials of life. What I know, I simply know. If I am wrong, GOD will correct it.

Your thoughts are welcome here anytime. I for one, do appreciate others comments.

[Hemidakota]

Knowledge beyond faith is to be found on the other side of the veil.

Not always the case. Joseph Smith is a good candidate to note here, what he seen in many visions and revelations received under the Savior guidance in mortality. I do expect others of such caliber, receive the same.

[lilered]

But the fact still remains as stated by "inthearmasleep"

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on. The same is true with knowledge. The time to learn is now, as progression after death will take much longer.

One of the basic teachings of the Church is that the knowledge we gain in this life will be a blessing to us now and in life after death: “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19).

Stirring witness of salvation for the dead was given to a subsequent latter-day prophet in 1918. President Joseph F. Smith recorded a vision he received on October 3 as he read and pondered 1 Peter 3:18–20 [1 Pet. 3:18–20] and 1 Peter 4:6 [1 Pet. 3:18–20], wherein the Apostle Peter discusses the Lord Jesus Christ’s visit to the spirit world after his crucifixion:

“As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both great and small.

“And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just. …

“While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

“And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. …

“I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

“But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. …

“Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

“These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

“And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves. …

“I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

“The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God” (D&C 138:11–12, 18–19, 29–30, 32–34, 57–58).