It's the little things that matter, right?

[mckell]

So I've been trying to do everything that I'm supposed to be doing. I attend church, I try to read the scriptures and say my prayers.

My husband just recently started to tell me that he doesn't want to go to church anymore. He doesn't realy want to have much to do with it. We have been greatly offened by our home ward and I try to look past that, but it seems he can't. :sadwalk:

My heart is breaking to know that he made a covenant with me and the lord and he's not honoring it. How can I get him to get back into the church without forcing anything upon him ... which might cause him to push away from myself? I keep praying and doing what I can, but I would like to know if anyone has any other suggestions. Thank you.

[Aphrodite]

you cant force him. Be supportive no matter what. Say to him, darling this is so hard for me and for us, but I love you and I will respect whatever decision you make. It may hurt to say that or feel like a lie as you feel upset and hurt, but that will help your husband, believe me. If he ever decides to come back he'll remember your support and love you all the more for it. Guilt tripping, or trying to force him or bargain him back to church will not work, and you will lose his respect as he will see it as you are more worried about him going to church than his feelings and your relationship. Perservere, and love him no matter what.

[Guest tomk]

Try reading "The Peacegiver" and apply it to your own life. That can yield wonderful fruits.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged." As hard as it may be, you must honor your husband's agency, just as the Lord honors your agency and forgives you and has patience with you for your shortcomings and willfullness. By condemning your husband in any fashion, you tie your fate to his.

Live your life the way you know you should. Be a silent example. Support him in every move towards righteousness, no matter how tiny, and thank the Lord for such in your secret prayers. Encourage him to participate in church activities and family nights as the Spirit directs. The changes will come. Be looking for them. Be grateful when they happen, no matter how small or no matter in what areas.

[Lloyd]

But, to add to Aphrodite's statement, may I? You, Mckell, must remain strong what ever you do. You need to remain true to "your" covenants, convictions, teachings etc. As for the offences that have occurred from the ward or whomever, you need to find a way to work through that. Maybe you feel you can't go to your bishop, but you can go to the stake president and seek his counsel. It will help. I know if my wife had followed my attitude, which was similar to what you describe including the hurt feelings from the ward, I would not have found my way back, and may have thrown her off the straight path. It is hard, but you can do it, and if he loves you he will gradually follow. (You don't break a horse to bridle overnight, it takes time and patience) Lloyd (I did follow my own advise and here I am)

[mckell]

:mellow:ok here's the deal... we got married and moved into a basement apartment, which put us in a family ward. We tried going to the family ward and it proved to be a dissapointment. No one said hello, no one made an effort to welcome us. So we decided to attend my husband's parents ward... the one we have attended previously.

well when the time came that the church went all high tech, haha, and decided to add bar codes to the temple recommends, we called our home ward to get our current temple recommends switched over. They said they wouldn't do it. We didnt think it was fair of them from keeping us from having the blessing that come from attending the temple.

The home ward basically told us that since we don't participate in their meetings, that they wouldn't give us the new recommend even though our recommends are still valid.

My husband got really frustrated and didnt' understand how they would do that to us, when we haven't even met our home teachers, relief society president, or even the bishop. They claim they call us all the time (we both have cell phones and no home phone) and we NEVER get any calls.

So my hubby HATES the home ward now and I believe that is one of the reasons why he has gone astray from the church. He says everyone is fake.

I can see why they wouldn't give us the new recommend now that I think about it, but I still don't attend the home ward. Since I've been going to church by myself, I attend church with my husband's parents. His mom is the relief society president and I feel welcomed in that ward.

Pretty soon we will be moving our records into this ward since we will be living in the basement of my hubby's parents while we attend school. I want to talk to a bishop now, but I don't know if I am obligated to talk to the home ward bishop that I've never even seen, or can I still get revelation and help from the ward I am currently attending?

[Moksha]

:mellow:ok here's the deal... we got married and moved into a basement apartment, which put us in a family ward. We tried going to the family ward and it proved to be a dissapointment. No one said hello, no one made an effort to welcome us. So we decided to attend my husband's parents ward... the one we have attended previously.

well when the time came that the church went all high tech, haha, and decided to add bar codes to the temple recommends, we called our home ward to get our current temple recommends switched over. They said they wouldn't do it. We didnt think it was fair of them from keeping us from having the blessing that come from attending the temple.

The home ward basically told us that since we don't participate in their meetings, that they wouldn't give us the new recommend even though our recommends are still valid.

Sounds like both a question of turf and possibly an over devotion to rules. Some get attached to their turf and do not play well with those from another turf. And there are rules. Rules that say you must stay on your home turf, even if the playing field is friendlier elsewhere.

You need to speak to a referee who can perhaps intercede for you in this playing field dispute. Remember however, that in the end they will insist you follow the rules to have full access to the locker rooms.

[mckell]

Sounds like both a question of turf and possibly an over devotion to rules. Some get attached to their turf and do not play well with those from another turf. And there are rules. Rules that say you must stay on your home turf, even if the playing field is friendlier elsewhere.

You need to speak to a referee who can perhaps intercede for you in this playing field dispute. Remember however, that in the end they will insist you follow the rules to have full access to the locker rooms.

eh............ ok? haha i didn't think i was playing a game here. but thanks? i guess

[Misshalfway]

Hey Mckell,

I sympathize with the situation you find yourselves in. I have been in friendly wards and not so friendly wards. They are just like people....lots of different flavors. I think that sometimes it is a challenge to find the good points from a ward that is on the not so friendly side. Often one can't realize those strengths from the sidelines, kwim? I think sometimes it is easier to go where we are more comfortable. But facilitating our comfort is not always in our best interest, from God's point of view I mean. There is much to be learned from participating in the situation you describe. Perhaps people need your friendliness or your patience. You never know what burdens people carry. Sometimes they can look different than what they really are. And sometimes the saints just blow it!! In any case, I think there is so much God is trying to teach all of us through every part of our obedience.

Anyway, I am wondering what are grounds for withholding temple recommends. I haven't read the official guidelines on this. Assigning people to wards is a church policy...not a doctrine. If I were you, I would try to talk to the Stake Pres. or one of his counselors. Some leaders are more "letter of the law" sorts. I wonder if this bishop isn't a little overzealous in trying to drive the point home. They will most likely invite you to attend the ward where you are assigned. But perhaps with more communication on this issue, it can get ironed out. I think God looks on the heart. And sometimes bishops need to learn to do that also. I can't know what is the right thing here, just my best take.

Just remember that all of us, leaders included, are absolutely imperfect. We make mistakes. We are sometimes not as friendly as we should be. And sometimes we just need to give each other a break. I hope your husband can look past the weakness in his brother. It must be hard for you watching it all happen. Perhaps, this is a temporary decision on his part. Perhaps, he will soften his heart as time goes on.

[Alaskagain]

If you have moved into your in-laws' basement apartment, and you are going to be there for a while, and you are attending your in-laws' ward, that is exactly where you should be attending. I don't see the claim your old ward is taking, if you don't live there anymore. You should be able to take your current TR's and go see the bishop in your new (in-laws' ) ward.

puzzled. . . .

[Misshalfway]

Yeah! What Alaska said!

[Moksha]

eh............ ok? haha i didn't think i was playing a game here. but thanks? i guess

You are welcome. The turf and playing fields were but metaphors.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It seems to me that often people get so hung up on the letter of the law they totally overlook the spirit of the law.

Supposing you had a job which kept you travelling the country and you attended church in a different Ward every week. Would that mean you were inelligible for a Temple Recommend? Of course not.

Pretty soon we will be moving our records into this ward since we will be living in the basement of my hubby's parents while we attend school. I want to talk to a bishop now, but I don't know if I am obligated to talk to the home ward bishop that I've never even seen, or can I still get revelation and help from the ward I am currently attending?

Might just be easier to move, get your records transferred and then apply for a TR in the ward where you have been attending.

[Aphrodite]

how could a bishop be so anal? I think willow is right. In these sort of situations I think-what would a non member think if they knew you were being punished for going to a different church, yet same religion, and it was all to do with geography? I think they would be bewildered by it. If that's the case, then time to take stock of weird and pointless rules......

[mckell]

If you have moved into your in-laws' basement apartment, and you are going to be there for a while, and you are attending your in-laws' ward, that is exactly where you should be attending. I don't see the claim your old ward is taking, if you don't live there anymore. You should be able to take your current TR's and go see the bishop in your new (in-laws' ) ward.

puzzled. . . .

well we haven't moved yet. that's the thing. i want to talk to a bishop now.... but we are moving more towards the summer/the end of summer. so technically my records are still in the home ward.

[mckell]

See the thing that I don't really understand and what got us really ticked off.. is when we called to get an appointment. The Bishop was out of town and so we talked to the second counseler. My husband was told that we would have to get a hold of the bishop for anything that has to do with temple recommends, along with the fact that we don't attend our ward it's not looking good for us. the 2nd counseler basically said that we should get up, move, and go to a different ward since we we're participating in theirs. They asked what ward we were attending now so they could transfer our records back... which you can't really do. trust us. we've asked the in-laws's bishops if we could technically be a member of their ward.

i can't believe they would tell us that we should move! how rude and un-christlike! Now I can understand how people get offended and never want to go back to church again. Before this happened, I never understood what made those people so hurt. Well the bishop called us back when he get back into town, and stated that he has discussed it with the stake president and they both agreed that we shouldn't be able to get the new recommend. I still have my old one, and it is still valid. I don't understand how things work i guess.

[Misshalfway]

I gotta say... I don't agree with the decisions of your bishop and your stake pres. Perhaps the counselor kinda knew that these were "letter of the law" types and he was giving you good advice. I am not sure I would have perceived his words as rude. Sounds to me like he was trying to encourage you to go where you were happiest so that your actions could line up with church policy.

I find it interesting that all this was done over the phone. Temple interview questions are asked in the office, face to face. And if I were you, i would want to see documentation from the first presidency showing me where my actions were unlawful to the prereq's of God. I would make sure that I sat with the Stake President as well. I would go in humility and after prayer but with a clear vision of the issues. I think the stake president should hear your story from your own mouth.

And then, my dear, I would advise you to soften your heart. We don't go to church because of other people. We go because our commitment is to the Lord. Perhaps, and only perhaps, this situation is an opportunity for you and your sweetheart to learn how to deal with situations like this. Becoming offended is normal and natural and human. But it is also a choice.... and it is important to understand that it is not the only choice. We all experience it as part of the test of this life. The invitation of the gospel is to rise above it and forgive. The weaknesses of our fellow brothers and sisters are actually great opportunities for us to learn. They help us see our own! :) And beyond that, I hope you can see that there is wisdom in going to the ward that you are assigned to. And these leaders WILL make a final decision (right or wrong) and there is the possibility that you won't like it. What will you do then? Perhaps you will only see the benevolence of this situation in hindsight.

[Moksha]

Well the bishop called us back when he get back into town, and stated that he has discussed it with the stake president and they both agreed that we shouldn't be able to get the new recommend. I still have my old one, and it is still valid. I don't understand how things work i guess.

Well, things are supposed to work a bit better than this without legalisms interfering with the spirit of Temple attendance. But hey, we all wrestle with our own inner Pharisee to some extent. Just hate to see the inner Pharisee get the upper hand.

I imagine this nuttiness will be able to be resolved when you move to the ward you are currently attending.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It does sound very unChristlike to me too. If you still have a valid Temple Recommend and they aren't going to take it from you for not attending your assigned ward then it seems a little hypocritical too.

However, as Misshalfway said, you could use it as a learning experience to develop strength to withstand seemingly pointless opposition, which I know is far from easy. I was once in a Ward where there were several members (including the Bishop) who were far from Christlike and extremely unhelpful. We actually ended up leaving the church for a while because of it. I hope you'll be able to overcome this hurdle and once you have moved into the area where you are now attending church that it will all work out for you.

If you are able to meet with your SP face to face in a non-confrontational discussion you could ask him what would happen if you had a job which caused you to travel the country and were not able to attend church in the same ward every week. Would you still be entitled to a recommend?

I know that when I've been on holiday (for 6 weeks most summers) and attended church in a different stake I have still been counted as 'in attendance' even though it wasn't my home ward.

[mckell]

I have had a lot of my family members tell me that I should go see both bishops. I am scared that if I went to the home ward bishop, I would blame them for my husband's recent dislike for the church. I don't want to come across like that, and I know I need to get rid of those feelings, but it is hard. I have thought a lot about going to the home ward and I'm in a pickle.

lol I can just see myself in relief society when they ask if there are any vistors and they ask me who I am, I'll just say Hi, I'm McKell. I've been in this ward for 19 months now and this is my first time acutally attending relief society because I haven't felt comfortable with your ward in coming. LOL I can just see their faces..

My husband and I had a break through chat last night. I think I have some what of hope of him not shutting out the church forever. I will have to continue to pray and do what is the Lord's will. And he will be there in the end. I appreciate everyone's advice and input. Thank you. It means more than you know.

[lilered]

Perhaps one might want to step back a bit and consider "which are the most important" to achieving your goal of gaining eternal life, having happiness and joy.

Being Right or Wrong

Repentance/things as they are

Forgivness/Understanding

Disobediance/Obediance

Pride/Humility

Worthiness To Receive a Recommend/Expiration of Temple Recommend

Church attendance/non-church attendance

Which course of action will achieve the most, to help you achieve a positive expierence for both you and your husband?

1) Attend your home ward - Talk with your home Bishop, discuss your not feeling welcome, recommitt to making a new attempt to fit in and ask his help. Attend all church meetings for a month to see how things go.

2) Go to your in laws ward - Be unable to renew your temple recommends, Husband continues to stay home. Feel more welcome although your membership is in another ward. Continue to murmer.

3.) Do not go to either ward, stay home, do not receive any spiritual food for your soul. Do not get a new temple recommend. Be mad and hurt and join your husband in rejecting the church? Continue to murmer.

4.) Continue to try to persuade the Bishops & Stake President they are wrong.

Hmm! I know which I would choose, but we all have our free agenci.

[Palerider]

Bishops always get heat for this kind of thing. If you live in one ward and your records are in another ....you will not get a Temple Rec. I am even nore surprised that the Bishop of the ward you were attending never asked about getting your records.

I had a sister get mad at me and started attending another ward. She could not pay her tithing in the ward she was attending cause her memberships records were not there. After time went by she came and asked me for a Temple Rec and I would not sign it. When she left our meeting she called the Stake President. She has every right to call him cause that would be the level to go to. A few weeks after their meeting she started attending our ward again.

I also know that what I say next won't be popular here after reading the posts...but....I know all about letter of the law or spirit of the law...sometimes Bishops look at it as....think about the questions for a Temple Rec.....and whats wrong with obedience and dis-obedience.....this also why I wish more Priesthooh holders had a chance to serve as a Bishop, just so they could find out what its like..

[THIRDpersonviewer]

This goes against what most people are complaining about but....

There was a CES fireside a couple months ago where they talked about marriage(go figure), and the speaker(I believe was President Tingey) talked about the process a little bit. He mentioned that there was a situation where a young man was visiting the ward of his fiancee, instead of going to his own ward. So, the time came when they went to the Bishop to get a recommend for sealing in the temple. The Bishop wouldn't give him one. Why? He had forsaken his duties, his obligations, his covenants, his responsibilities, and his stewardships. Had he been doing his home teaching? his calling? missionary work? payed his tithing? There is no evidence of any of these things being done because the Bishop does not see the guy at all. Church activity is seen as by regular church attendance, and fulfilling of callings. If the Bishop does not see someone at Church, then they appear inactive. Elder Tingey said the Bishop had every right to withold the recommend.

That is the letter of the law. Doing what is said to the T. The Spirit of the Law. Being faithful in ALL things.

The other point of advice, remember your testimony. Elder Nelson talked about this point, Salvation is an individual affair. It doesn't matter what others think or do or say. It won't affect where you are going. Individually, your testimony is what sustains you, not what others do or say. I don't talk to hardly anyone at church. Its just my personality, I'm quiet and shy. However, I am happy, because I have a testimony and I rely on the Lord. I would say go back to your home ward and prove your faithfulness and don't worry about being friends. Church isn't meant as a social gathering. It is first and foremost an opportunity to renew covenants, and then to be spiritually fed and in the process of these things you are worshiping the Lord. That is all that happens to me when I go to church and that is all I need.

Friendships and relationships are a two way thing. Are you doing your part to be friends? If not then try. If you are, then don't worry about it. Oftentimes others are unfriendly because they aren't aware of being unfriendly. When you understand that the person may not realize what they are doing, it becomes easier to forgive. Then you go on with life free of grudges and apostasy.

[Hemidakota]

:mellow:ok here's the deal... we got married and moved into a basement apartment, which put us in a family ward. We tried going to the family ward and it proved to be a dissapointment. No one said hello, no one made an effort to welcome us. So we decided to attend my husband's parents ward... the one we have attended previously.

well when the time came that the church went all high tech, haha, and decided to add bar codes to the temple recommends, we called our home ward to get our current temple recommends switched over. They said they wouldn't do it. We didnt think it was fair of them from keeping us from having the blessing that come from attending the temple.

The home ward basically told us that since we don't participate in their meetings, that they wouldn't give us the new recommend even though our recommends are still valid.

My husband got really frustrated and didnt' understand how they would do that to us, when we haven't even met our home teachers, relief society president, or even the bishop. They claim they call us all the time (we both have cell phones and no home phone) and we NEVER get any calls.

So my hubby HATES the home ward now and I believe that is one of the reasons why he has gone astray from the church. He says everyone is fake.

I can see why they wouldn't give us the new recommend now that I think about it, but I still don't attend the home ward. Since I've been going to church by myself, I attend church with my husband's parents. His mom is the relief society president and I feel welcomed in that ward.

Pretty soon we will be moving our records into this ward since we will be living in the basement of my hubby's parents while we attend school. I want to talk to a bishop now, but I don't know if I am obligated to talk to the home ward bishop that I've never even seen, or can I still get revelation and help from the ward I am currently attending?

Hmm...by the stake boundaries, you are obligated to attend the ward assigned. However, if this is a problem with your husband, return to the old ward and speak to the bishop.

The goal right now is keep him in the church.

Remember, it is the Lord's church and not the Bishops. His testimony should be built around that type of a testimony.

[Misshalfway]

This goes against what most people are complaining about but....

There was a CES fireside a couple months ago where they talked about marriage(go figure), and the speaker(I believe was President Tingey) talked about the process a little bit. He mentioned that there was a situation where a young man was visiting the ward of his fiancee, instead of going to his own ward. So, the time came when they went to the Bishop to get a recommend for sealing in the temple. The Bishop wouldn't give him one. Why? He had forsaken his duties, his obligations, his covenants, his responsibilities, and his stewardships. Had he been doing his home teaching? his calling? missionary work? payed his tithing? There is no evidence of any of these things being done because the Bishop does not see the guy at all. Church activity is seen as by regular church attendance, and fulfilling of callings. If the Bishop does not see someone at Church, then they appear inactive. Elder Tingey said the Bishop had every right to withold the recommend.

That is the letter of the law. Doing what is said to the T. The Spirit of the Law. Being faithful in ALL things.

The other point of advice, remember your testimony. Elder Nelson talked about this point, Salvation is an individual affair. It doesn't matter what others think or do or say. It won't affect where you are going. Individually, your testimony is what sustains you, not what others do or say. I don't talk to hardly anyone at church. Its just my personality, I'm quiet and shy. However, I am happy, because I have a testimony and I rely on the Lord. I would say go back to your home ward and prove your faithfulness and don't worry about being friends. Church isn't meant as a social gathering. It is first and foremost an opportunity to renew covenants, and then to be spiritually fed and in the process of these things you are worshiping the Lord. That is all that happens to me when I go to church and that is all I need.

Friendships and relationships are a two way thing. Are you doing your part to be friends? If not then try. If you are, then don't worry about it. Oftentimes others are unfriendly because they aren't aware of being unfriendly. When you understand that the person may not realize what they are doing, it becomes easier to forgive. Then you go on with life free of grudges and apostasy.

My issue is not with whether or not the bishop has the "right" to withhold the recommend. It is with the missed steps in between. I feel the bishop should meet with this couple. I feel that some kind of problem solving should take place. If this couple is moving out of the ward, why not work together with them and help them feel the spirit. Why did the bishop decide to revoke without any of these steps? And over the phone no less?

Seems to me this whole situation could have been handled with a little more sensitivity. Not that the rules or expectations should be changed. Just so that people stay more important than policy.

[mckell]

Bishops always get heat for this kind of thing. If you live in one ward and your records are in another ....you will not get a Temple Rec. I am even nore surprised that the Bishop of the ward you were attending never asked about getting your records.

I had a sister get mad at me and started attending another ward. She could not pay her tithing in the ward she was attending cause her memberships records were not there. After time went by she came and asked me for a Temple Rec and I would not sign it. When she left our meeting she called the Stake President. She has every right to call him cause that would be the level to go to. A few weeks after their meeting she started attending our ward again.

I also know that what I say next won't be popular here after reading the posts...but....I know all about letter of the law or spirit of the law...sometimes Bishops look at it as....think about the questions for a Temple Rec.....and whats wrong with obedience and dis-obedience.....this also why I wish more Priesthooh holders had a chance to serve as a Bishop, just so they could find out what its like..

we have tried getting our records moved over to the ward. we've asked the bishop and the stake president. we asked if we could pay our tithing there, and was told technicially no, but they wouldn't mind allowing a few donations here and there.

so we stopped by the home ward to get some tithing envelopes, and I pay our tithing, most the time, to the home ward and then we drop it off in the bishop's mail box.

I am the only one currently paying tithing, I believe my husband as issues with it. He doesn't mind donating, but I will not pay his tithing for him. There would be no benefit for him if I was to pay it for him. I can see him believing that "why pay my tithing when they won't even give me my reccommend anyway"? i KNOW this isn't the reason to pay titihing. I KNOW already. but i think that is just an excuse that he uses, which is really lame.