David and Moses

[HizWife625]

Just out of curiosity............

How may people did David murder?

How many people did Moses murder?

[Traveler]

Just out of curiosity............

How may people did David murder?

How many people did Moses murder?

Moses was not guilty of murder. David was guilty of one.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

King David murder Uriah and now suffering the pains of hell. However, through his penance and not having the fullness of the priesthood, half of his glory will be given to another in the latter days.

Did Moses murder the Egyptian or was it an accident? Moses was not a member of the Church, nor baptized, nor held the Priesthood. Either case, there is still the lingering question for those not of the faith.

[Canuck Mormon]

Just out of curiosity............

How may people did David murder?

How many people did Moses murder?

I suspect you already know the answer, so why don't you just tell us already.

[skalenfehl]

Intriguing question. I know that David lusted after Bathseba and sinned in committing adultery. His greater sin was sending her husband Uriah out to his death. In this case I'd consider it murder.

In Moses' case, if I remember correctly he killed an buried an Egyptian who was smiting a Hebrew slave. This is what caused Moses to flee Egypt out of fear of the Pharaoh. In this case, not sure if this is cold blooded murder as was in David's case for we don't know how severely the Egyptian was smiting the Hebrew, perhaps unto death? Could be considered defending the Hebrew's life.

[MaidservantX]

I don't know that I'd define this as murder, although some might. But both Moses and David presided over armies. I don't know if I've ever learned whether Moses' (Egyptian) armies were in active war.

[Hemidakota]

Exodus 2:11

Another take from a different viewpoint:

In the Midrash Rabbah, traditional Jewish Old Testament commentary, it reveals that Moses, with his bare fists, killed an Egyptian taskmaster who was in the act of seducing a Hebrew woman. For those Koran readers, it is also said the same.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Was David's act technically murder? Morally it was but could a court really have found him guilty of murder? He sent Uriah where he knew he would likely be killed but on the other hand he was a soldier and could have expected to lose his life in battle some day.

[Hemidakota]

As you revealed, a notable difference between the court of the land and court of God.

[Vanhin]

David's story teaches us that we must endure to the end (see Guide to the Scriptures: Calling and Election). He paid a heavy price for the murder of Uriah (D&C 132:39).

D&C 132 talks about those who enter the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, among other things, and reveals that murder by someone at that point is synonymous with blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Here's some text.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:26-27)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Shell72]

I don't understand - is there a point here?

What does it matter who killed who and how many?

I'm getting the sense that there is some sort of underlying purpose to the original post and I'm kind of confused as to what it is.

[HizWife625]

After Stephen was stoned, what did he cry out ot the Lord to do to those who were murdering him?

[Jenamarie]

I'm about 99% sure this question has to do with the discussion at the very end of the "how easy is it?" thread.

HizWife, you're trying to use Moses and David as examples of people Mormons think are destined to Hell for murder. The truth is, we don't. They had not made the Temple Covenants which would put someone under condemnation for murder (as quoted by Vahnin), because of the covenant made with God therein. So just beacuse we don't believe David and Moses are destined to Hell, doesn't mean we are contredicting ourselves.

[Hemidakota]

Currently, King David is serving time in hell.

[Jenamarie]

Right, but he's not destined for Eternal Damnation. :)

[Hemidakota]

After Stephen was stoned, what did he cry out ot the Lord to do to those who were murdering him?

Do you believe they will be spared? Stephen had a pure love of Christ and what he asked was the right thing. Now I said that, the law is the law and judgment will be spent after their resurrection. I would leave that speculation in the Lord's hand since He knows the souls of those priests.

Do you know who was holding his cloak?

[Hemidakota]

Right, but he's not destined for Eternal Damnation. :)

Correct. :)

[MorningStar]

Oh no. My testimony is crumbling.

[Vanhin]

I would like to point out that in the case of David, it is pretty clear from modern revelation that he had received the New and Everlasting Covenant. That's kind of the point about D&C 132. The New and Everlasting Covenant includes all the sacred ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, including marriage. Being sealed to your spouse is the last saving ordinance that is performed in mortality, which, by the way, is the law by which David received multiple wives. That is why is he won't receive forgiveness for the murder of Uriah.

This might be of interest to someone.

Guide to the Scriptures: David

We don't know his final state, so it's premature to confine him to Outer Darkness, but we do know he lost his exaltation. -> Doctrine and Covenants 132

Vanhin

[Jenamarie]

Thanks for the clarification Vanhin. I guess I never made the connection between D&C 132 and David. I did know that he lost his Exaltation, but I do suppose I was jumping the gun a bit to say I knew for sure he wasn't Eternally Damned. I'm a bit embarassed by my assumption now, actually.

(man, I hate it when I get "told". )

[Vanhin]

Thanks for the clarification Vanhin. I guess I never made the connection between D&C 132 and David. I did know that he lost his Exaltation, but I do suppose I was jumping the gun a bit to say I knew for sure he wasn't Eternally Damned. I'm a bit embarassed by my assumption now, actually.

(man, I hate it when I get "told". )

Well, I hope you don't feel like I was trying to be like that. :) Just trying to contribute something useful without opening up a can of worms. I remember the first time my mother read D&C 132...

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[BenRaines]

If I recall not only did he send Uriah to the front but once there he ordered the troops to withdraw. From the scripture he had intent to cover his sin by Uriah's death.

Ben Raines

[Jenamarie]

Well, I hope you don't feel like I was trying to be like that. :) Just trying to contribute something useful without opening up a can of worms. I remember the first time my mother read D&C 132...

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Oh no worries. I was laughing at myself mostly. :)

[HizWife625]

Even Jesus forgave those who were murdering Him ................ if He can forgive them, then so can I.

[HizWife625]

This is a post from Traveler from the "Is Grace Enough:

Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer.