Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[Misshalfway]

This church does have an evolved culture and it is sometimes difficult to transition into it. I don't think we as members....long term members anyway....always understand the challenge it can sometimes be to fit in. This church is demanding. And sometimes I think one needs a thick skin and a clear and committed direction to withstand some of the dynamics.

This church is such a marvel as it expands thru-out the world. I think the definitions of who and what we are need to expand. There is room for everyone no matter what culture you come from in this church. And there is room to bring some of that cultural beauty along. I think we can do more to welcome and accept new members. That first year or two can be so difficult.

[john doe]

Not to be harsh, Willow, but to stop going to church when you know it is the right thing to do, is a sin of omission. Maybe you were helped by the members in making that decision to stop attending, but ultimately, it was you and your husband who chose to stop trying to overcome the hardship of going. Mind you, I think I completely understand your decision to stop, I might have made the same decision myself. I have close friends who have made that decision. But it is still a sin of omission to NOT do something we know is right.

[melissar]

I know that I had a real problem with feeling accepted when my husband and I first joined. Of course it does not help that I was painfully shy at the time. It is so much better now though. I had to make myself go up and introduce myself. It was worth it though because now I have close friends in the ward.

[rise]

I would have to disagree. Having served a mission I have met many people who just rejected gospel doctrines after years of research and study. A matter of faith this is a problem with many churches. people tend to use their own knowledge and go to a different church or go to to a different way of worshiping God.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Not to be harsh, Willow, but to stop going to church when you know it is the right thing to do, is a sin of omission. Maybe you were helped by the members in making that decision to stop attending, but ultimately, it was you and your husband who chose to stop trying to overcome the hardship of going. Mind you, I think I completely understand your decision to stop, I might have made the same decision myself. I have close friends who have made that decision. But it is still a sin of omission to NOT do something we know is right.

I don't think I am explaining it properly. We didn't 'stop going when we knew it was the right thing to do'. We knew the church was true. We knew Joseph Smith was a prophet and brought the full restored Gospel back to the earth. What we didn't know, because of the way Ward members treated us, was that we were permitted to be part of it. We did not know that going to this church was the right thing for us to do. We did not know that Jesus Christ wanted us in his church. In fact it felt like he didn't because his representatives didn't. That was why we stopped going. We felt that the people there were so different to us and that we didn't match up to it, didn't qualify. The missionaries hadn't sought us out, I had sought out the church. I began to think that the missionaries hadn't been guided to my home because the Holy Ghost hadn't wanted them to teach me. They had called on so many other people but in all the years I had lived in the same place they had never once called on me. I had never met any in the street or anything like that so that in addition to the rejection by Ward members led me to believe that the Lord had not chosen me, and as I was the one who had brought my husband and he had never come across missionaries either then he felt the same applied to him. All the members who were converts told of how the missionaries had come to their homes. Everyone had the same conversion story but us.We just felt that the church was true but that we were not meant to be part of it. I can understand now that that was a misconception but at the time when we were very new that was how it seemed. No-one tried to talk us out of leaving which seemed to confirm to us that we were not meant to be there.

[sixpacktr]

Willow,

Inactivity does not necessarily equal apostasy. I have known some active members that were on the road to apostasy. I see it here on this board with some of the snide comments towards church leaders. JS taught that if someone is criticizing church leaders you can be sure they are on the high road to apostasy.

Also, you mention several times that you believed, just didn't attend, for whatever reasons. That does not constitute apostasy. Skal defined very well, thru the scriptures, what apostasy is. Also, apostasy isn't a 'one time' event. It takes place over time, and usually comes about thru being offended by the commandments, not praying, not studying your scriptures, not attending sacrament meetings, etc. We decide, for whatever reason, that we don't want the light that our HF gives us thru these sources, as well as the counsel of our church leaders, and Satan is more than happy to replace that light with darkness.

Apostates (like those that attend the University of Utah!) tend to fight against the church as well, and not let it alone. They cannot be neutral, simply letting it alone, but must fight it. JS spoke of that to an early member (Dan Jones, I believe, but can't recollect right now), telling him, when asked why the apostates wouldn't leave the church alone, that anyone that has that spirit seeks for the blood of the leaders, they can't just leave and leave it alone.

[WillowTheWhisp]

No we didn't just stop attending church. We had our names removed from the records. We had to be rebaptised when we came back and wait for a GA to restore our temple blessings.

[lilered]

Willow; And I for one am happy that you returned.

[Guest User-Removed]

I think it was Canuck Mormon who pointed out that McConkie got a lot of these ideas from his Father-in-Law. I imagine after Sunday dinner in the Smith household, the women retired to the kitchen to make themselves useful, while the men went to the parlor and cooked up a lot of speculation. Perhaps after a spot of bad mustard they came up with particularly harsh speculations.

Actually...I don't see where Canuck has participated in this thread?

Hey...I'm going to start another thread entitiled: "I'm smarter than an Apostle"

I'd like to headline it with several of your quotes...Is that OK with you?

[Guest User-Removed]

I think it was Canuck Mormon who pointed out that McConkie got a lot of these ideas from his Father-in-Law. I imagine after Sunday dinner in the Smith household, the women retired to the kitchen to make themselves useful, while the men went to the parlor and cooked up a lot of speculation. Perhaps after a spot of bad mustard they came up with particularly harsh speculations.

Actually...I don't see where Canuck has participated in this thread?

Hey...I'm going to start another thread entitiled: "I'm smarter than an Apostle"

I'd like to headline it with several of your quotes...Is that OK with you?

[Guest User-Removed]

I think it was Canuck Mormon who pointed out that McConkie got a lot of these ideas from his Father-in-Law. I imagine after Sunday dinner in the Smith household, the women retired to the kitchen to make themselves useful, while the men went to the parlor and cooked up a lot of speculation. Perhaps after a spot of bad mustard they came up with particularly harsh speculations.

Actually...I don't see where Canuck has participated in this thread?

Hey...I'm going to start another thread entitiled: "I'm smarter than an Apostle"

I'd like to headline it with several of your quotes...Is that OK with you?

[sgallan]

You know when you do the "hero worship - they are basically God" thing ,with regards to past Apostles, it comes off as a little odd. Your not really meaning to come off this way are you?

[Guest User-Removed]

You know when you do the "hero worship - they are basically God" thing ,with regards to past Apostles, it comes off as a little odd. Your not really meaning to come off this way are you?

"Hero Worship"...I reserve that for Captain America, Superman and YES...Speed Racer.

I posted the comment from Elder McConkie simply to stimulate a Gospel centered discussion. Sadly, what I've encountered are numerous posts where folks clearly think they're smarter than Elder McConkie.

NOW...I am not a proponent of the infallibility of Apostles. History has shown us that they are men, like us in many areas.

Maybe I'll start posting quotes from the Prophet Joseph or other Prophet, Seers and Revelators...Would you view that as hero worship too?

[sgallan]

That depends on how you quote them and what manner you use to attack those who don't believe in your interpetation of what they quoted, because it sounds to me like you are setting yourself up as their "one true" spokesperson, and interpeter.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I would like to see the quote in context. If it is a rule then I believe that I for one am the exception to that rule. Elder McConkie hadn't met every person who left the church had he? Perhaps every person who leaves the church and posts anti-Mormon literature etc proves his point but we don't all do that.

If not going to church makes one a sinner then my daughter will be such a sinner now because she doesn't want to go back since being brought home unwanted last Tuesday. She is 13, depressed and feels rejected. Calling her a sinner on top of that is a sure fire way to encourage her to stay as far away from the church as possible.

[HiJolly]

I posted the comment from Elder McConkie simply to stimulate a Gospel centered discussion. Sadly, what I've encountered are numerous posts where folks clearly think they're smarter than Elder McConkie.

I object to the view that if I have a differing opinion, that somehow means I think I'm "smarter" than the one I disagree with. Maybe the other person didn't have all the information I have. Or maybe they were too biased one way or the other to see it objectively. Or maybe *I* am too biased to see it one way or the other.

Has nothing to do with "smarter", which is inflamitory and arguementative in its tone, IMO.

HiJolly

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have been a defender of Bruce R. McConkie elsewhere on this forum but from personal experience I must say that generalising like this is not helpful to anyone, especially when I am one of the people who walked away from the church not because of lusts of the flesh.

I also know someone who left and joined another church because she disagreed with some of the doctrine as she came to learn more. She is a devout member of her chosen church and it's quite offensive to suggest that she chose that church due to lusts of the flesh.

I have googled but the only reference I can find online for the quite is here on this forum. I would like to see it in the original context.

[Guest User-Removed]

I would like to see the quote in context. COLOR]

Doctrinal New Testiment Commentary Volume 3: pages 426-427

[Guest User-Removed]

That depends on how you quote them and what manner you use to attack those who don't believe in your interpetation of what they quoted, because it sounds to me like you are setting yourself up as their "one true" spokesperson, and interpeter.

You're WRONG....

[Misshalfway]

Not to be harsh, Willow, but to stop going to church when you know it is the right thing to do, is a sin of omission. Maybe you were helped by the members in making that decision to stop attending, but ultimately, it was you and your husband who chose to stop trying to overcome the hardship of going. Mind you, I think I completely understand your decision to stop, I might have made the same decision myself. I have close friends who have made that decision. But it is still a sin of omission to NOT do something we know is right.

I think the sin of omission is a valid point. There is always personal responsibility. But it is pretty letter of the law, don't you think?

Even the church leadership has acknowledged that we need to improve our retention efforts. I think that that early testimony is like a young plant and can be easily squashed by a coming storm. Whose sin of omission is it really? That of the newest amongst us or those with fully grown trees and deep roots who should undertsand and who should have enough love in there hearts to extend themselves??????

[Moksha]

Hey...I'm going to start another thread entitiled: "I'm smarter than an Apostle"

I'd like to headline it with several of your quotes...Is that OK with you?

Use your original quotation and my response in post #22 then. However, I do not contend that I am smarter. I have a lot of self doubts.

[HiJolly]

You're WRONG....

(sigh). THAT really adds substance to the conversation...

HiJolly

[Redbeard]

I appologize in advance because I did not read the entire thread, but I just wanted to throw in my input. In my family the people that have left the church have done it based on the basis of the religion itself. We found theological problems with the LDS church and christianity in general. So I disagree with the quote, but hey, to each his own :).

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Lusts of the flesh are synonymous with desire, passion, appetites, and other designations that align with carnality, or the natural man.

Elder McConkie is referencing the foundation of apostasy lies in sin. President Woodruff, with Joseph Smith and others said that apostasy begins with criticism of Church Leaders. Which, by the way, is a sin. However, the process of apostasy is just the direction of the net choices we make in our lives and where they take us. Sin takes us away from the Church. There is no rationalization that will get you around that. Once we sin enough we will be desensitized to the Spirit and will reject the truth, because we cannot comprehend or understand it anymore.

Criticism of Church Leaders is the fastest way out of the Church through apostasy. The other sins, whether they be of omission or commission, will, once they build up enough, drive one out of the Church.

Willow, that is the full context though Elder McConkie takes this analysis from Jude 1:17-25. Specifically 18-19.

For the record, principles are usually some form of generalization. a principle is being taught here.

[Guest User-Removed]

(sigh). THAT really adds substance to the conversation...

HiJolly

Cut me some slack...Jolly...two straight losses for the Lakers.....<VBG>