Leaderboard

Well, while many sections of the D&C have links in the "Related Content" pane for "Revelations in Context", this one only has it indirectly (see here), so apparently we don't know much about what led to receiving D&C 93. But, what if the paragraphination is wrong (or misleading)? Verses 29-35, re-paragraphinated: 1. Man was with God in the beginning, also ("also" because the preceding verses talked about how Christ was with God in the beginning). 2. There is a thing called [truth]. This thing has a light and we call this "light of truth" [intelligence]. [Intelligence] wasn't made and can't be made. 3. [Truth] is independent within the sphere in which God placed it. [Truth] can act. 4. [Intelligence, the light of truth] is also independent (really? independent from [truth]?) and free to act for itself within the sphere in which God has place it. 5. Were [truth] and [intelligence] not free to act within their spheres, there would be no existence. (Hmm.) 6. Men have agency because of these things. 7. Men are condemned when they refuse to receive the light (presumably [intelligence, the light of truth]). (This doesn't sound like "intelligence" === "the pre-spirit form of man" - how can you refuse to receive what you originally were?) 8. Man is spirit. (No qualifiers. No time mentioned. Perhaps we are and always have been spirits and our "spirit birth" was by ordinance and covenant with God so that we could progress. I'm not entirely comfortable with this idea, but I'm not entirely uncomfortable with it either. Just yesterday, another member (on X) explained that it was B. H. Roberts who formulated the intelligence > spirit > mortal paradigm that we now embrace, and asserted that he did it to reconcile Brigham Young's insistence that our spirits are conceived and born just as mortals are conceived and born. I haven't had time to research this to learn where, nor to learn more about what Joseph Smith actually taught, such as this simple sentence right here. In response to your OP, I went looking through the Scripture Citation Index for Abraham 3:22 and D&C 93:29, and the overwhelming perception, when "intelligences" were referenced (as opposed to the council in heaven) was that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit" in that verse. And actually, only one reference from then-Elder Nelson hinted otherwise. I think it best to keep one's beliefs flexible in this regard.) 9. Spirit and element can be combined and when "inseparably connected" (clearly suggests the resurrection), receive a fulness of joy. 10. All elements (matter?) are the tabernacle (aka temple) of God, including man. (Interesting. We believe God to be an exalted man, and yet all the elements everywhere, presumably, are His tabernacle. Hmm.) 11. Defiled temples (aka tabernacles) will be destroyed. Those seem to be the primary points from that set of verses. Now let's backtrack to verses 21-28. 12. Christ was in the beginning with the Father and is the "Firstborn". 13. Those begotten through Christ are partakers of "the glory of the same" - wait, what? The same what? All I can figure is that they are partakers of "the glory of the Firstborn" - hence, "and are the church of the Firstborn". So, were our spirits "begotten through Christ"? Or is this what we're here to do - get begotten through Christ, become His sons and daughters by covenant? (The second seems more consistent with my understanding, but what do I know?) (One can see where all the scriptures which talk about us becoming sons (and daughters) of Christ can suggest that becoming the children of God was also a covenant process...) 14. Prequel to the fact that we also were in the beginning with the Father (or does "Ye" refer to someone specific? "You" was used previously... ). The semi-colon confuses me in this bit: "that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth" - what does that refer to? Is it our spirits, if so, why capitalized? Is it God? Are we "the Spirit of truth"? This clause leaves me nothing but puzzled, always has. 15. Ah, here we have a definition of [truth]: things as they were, are, and will be. 16. Anything other than [truth] is "the spirit of [Lucifer]" 17. The "Spirit of truth" that confuses me in item #14 is of God. Jesus Christ is the "Spirit of truth". Now that phrase mentioned in 14 confuses me more, unless perhaps it's referring to God - if Christ is the "Spirit of truth" then I expect God is, too.... It's like a subject, object, or verb is missing from that paragraph! 18 John bore record that Christ received a fulness of all truth by keeping the commandments. 19. If you keep the commandments, you will receive [truth: knowledge of things as they were, are, and will be] and [light] (is this the light of truth, aka intelligence, or another light?), until you are glorified (see #13) in [truth] and know all things. My conclusion is as follows: 1) Don't get addicted to the "intelligence > spirit > mortal" paradigm. It might be correct, but it might not be. 2) Don't assume every instance of "intelligence" means the same thing, let alone "the pre-spirit form of mankind". 3) Mortal languages cannot correctly communicate many of the things found in the D&C, such as these from section 93. Therefore, one must study, reason, and then ask God to clarify where you understand correctly and where you are wrong. One must repeat this ad infinitum until one has received a fulness of all truth. It might take a few thousand years... 4) Keeping the commandments will speed item #3. (Failure to keep them will drastically hinder #3.) FWIW.

Cleon Skousen actually gives credit of these ideas to the Apostle John A Widtsoe. This single scripture is a major key to the theory. 2 Ne 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. Also good to compare to Helaman 12: 6-17

IMO, this is unwarranted from the quoted D&C bit. It does not say that man is or was an "intelligence". We get that from Abraham, but not from the cited D&C passage. IMO, the idea of intelligence > spirit > mortal is so embedded into our culture that we read it into (nearly?) every instance of the word "intelligence". I'm not convinced either way - we don't have enough, IMO, to speak with certainty. I'm not so sure they weren't just naturally in a hierarchy: Moses 3:5 says all things were created spiritually before naturally. It doesn't say the spiritual things were created from intelligence(s). Observe sound rearranging matter: Now, I'm not saying this was how God organized the universe, but I'm not saying it isn't either. I'm not convinced either way. First, I don't think agency is the same as free will. Agency is a responsibility given by God (through covenant, I think). Free will is just the natural consequence of having capacity and options. Remember 2 Nephi 2 talks about "things to act and things to be acted upon", suggesting that not everything has sufficient capacity to act or use agency... Folks around here don't seem to think Satan can do much of anything. FWIW.

Forgive the silly title, I feel like I can't possibly explain my thoughts here without sounding like a tinfoil hat man. Most of these ideas were I believe put forward by Scholar Cleon Skousen (warning: not a prophet, just very smart man who shared his own insights.) who offered them in the context of why the atonement was necessary. Evidently, I have latched onto some of these ideas and ran with them. Just trying to see if I am in need of a reality check as when I explained this concept to this Mrs. She looked at me like I was insane. Behold D&C 93: Key takeaways for the purpose of this post: - Intelligences existed in the beginning with God. - Intelligence (described as light/truth) is independent, and has the capacity to act freely. - Elements, likely meaning bodies or physical matter are also eternal, and inseparable from intelligence. Abraham 3:22 This seems to imply an order and hierarchy made of the various intelligences. All above board so far, let us descend into a little bit silliness. A quote from Brigham Young Given the scriptural quotes, it would seem when God was organising the universe, he organised the intelligences into a hierarchy, some of which were joined to bodies and made mortal, and some of which was joined to the elements around us. So if physical matter, has intelligence, according to D&C it also has agency. Which is why whenever Christ performed a miracle, he just spoke, and the world around him obeyed. This next part, is probably something which has already been remarked upon somewhere, I'm just too lazy to look for it. If physical matter, has agency, surely it can also choose to obey satan for example. Christ can cure blindness, Satan can cause it. A priesthood blessing can improve an illness, an evil spirit can worsen it. Because of this religious pseudo-scientific explanation, the problem of evil is not something which concerns me in the slightest. Literally everything bad can be blamed on Satan, not a design flaw in Gods creation. I've likely made some huge leaps in logic here, so take it or leave it. I just found it to be an interesting thought.

W_Cleon_Skousen_The_Meaning_Of_The_Atonement.mp3 Skousen's talk. Around 20 minutes he mentions the inspiration of his mission president, John A. Widsoe. When you listen to general conference, look for the 2 Ne 2: 14 quote. It will be there a couple of times, always is.

I’m heartbroken that BYU got rained on. That was crazy, 25 3-pointers… Very excited about next year though. AJ Dybantsa will bring a huge amount of national attention. First game next season is Villanova. If we can retain Egor Demin and Richie Saunders, it will be awesome. Hopefully we can continue winning seasons with deep penetration into March. Kevin Young has a 7 year contract worth 30M. Alumni with NIL deep pockets helps considerably as well. I also went to the University of Houston a couple years and Med school @ Texas Tech so I still got a couple teams in the dance.