mikbone

I dont know. If you read all the material listed (although some of which is Apocryphal) it does make a very interesting narrative.. And the fact that God produced the garments himself is spectacular. They might be somewhat similar to the Stones of the Ten Commandments, or the Urim & Thummin that The Brother of Jared received, or the Liahona. Can you think of other Relics that the Lord made? Alma 46: 24 ... he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed.

Yes, I actually took the effort to write all the footnotes (including those in the book of Jasher) so that those who make commentary might read the pertinent material.

Moses 4:27 does make them exceptional. And much of Nibley’s conclusions were generated by Jewish tradition. But some of Jewish tradition says they were made of snake skin as well, which I don’t like. I have reason to believe that they were made of sheep skin. And interestingly there is no report of Eve’s garment which must have been special as well. I bet Adam burried Eve in her garments. Thats what I would have done.

There is evidence that these garments were the first holy relics on Earth. Adam’s garment may have passed from Adam → Enoch → Methuselah → Noah — stolen → Ham → Cush → Nimrod –spoil of battle → Esau –traded for bowl of porridge → Jacob → Joseph.[1] Hugh Nibley presents an excellent argument that Joseph’s coat of many colors was Adam’s garment.[2] The garment was redolent of the Garden of Eden, so it reminded Adam and Eve as well as the original patriarchs of the time that man walked with God.[3] When animals caught scent of the garments they were pacified as well, a quality that Nimrod abused to become a mighty hunter.[4] [1]Genesis 9:21-25, Genesis 25:30-34, Jasher 7:24-30, Jasher 27:4-12, Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.2, Ch.1, pp. 169-171 [2]Alma 46:23-24, Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, vol. 3, 51-52 [3]Genesis 3:8, 5:22, 6:9, 27:27 [4]Genesis 10:9

I think ill make one last post and then let it rest I’m pretty sure I see your point (I used to have a very similar perspective - it just left me with a nagging sensation that it was incomplete) And I think that you understand my position (you just find it repulsive or arrogant or something else and I understand why someone can feel that way)... And thank you for a respectful dialogue. In high school and college I pole-vaulted. It is an exhilarating activity. But it is challenging and takes an incredible amount of strength, coordination, dermination, and experience. You cannot become a pole-vaulter from reading a book. Even if you read hundreds of books and watched videos for decades, your first attempt would be a failure. I have never performed olympic type gymnastics and even though I was a good pole-vaulter my skill does not translate to the floor routine, high bar, parallel bars, etc. Im sure you have a similar skill that you can relate to. Jehovah was prepared from before the foundation of the world (Moses 5:57, Ether 3:14, D&C 93:21) to be our Savior. And He performed a perfect execution of life, atonement, death, visiting the spirit world, and resurrection. On the very first attempt! It would be like a novice showing up to the olympics and shattering the world record Pole-Vault by a mile. And the world record is currently only 20’ 2.5” Not only did He do this, He created worlds without number and the light of Christ. Creating a galaxy or universe seems to be a difficult proposition... And then He created life and ecosystems. The human body is a work of wonder. The ability to create a DNA sequence that produces a living thinking organism that can successfully survive and reproduce in a hostile environment is a bloody miracle. I only understand the most basic comprehension of the skeletal system as an orthopod, and I can tell you that what I know about how the body grows and heals itself is downright amazing. Our scientists have no freaking idea how life works. You know that DNA produces protein right. Do you know how many new DNA sequences that scientists have produced that have constructed a useful protein? Thats right, zero. We aren’t nearly as smart as most people believe that we are. If we want to be like Heavenly Father, we probably have to do it the same way that He did it. Becoming a God is probably not a reward for living a good life. Mormon’s are not godmakers because we think that we are better than the other religions. Latter-Day Saints believe that we have to capacity to become like our forefathers because we are willing to follow their example, and work to bring to pass the immortality and etenal life of Man.

Thank you. Phew. So you are describing two different things. The first is a line of royal Gods that have served as atoning Saviors ... Heavenly Grandfather -> Heavenly Father -> Jehovah -> Jesus’ Firstborn in the spirit -> ... The second concept is when you diverge from the royal line yet produce a firstborn of your own that can provide an atonement. There is nothing wrong with having this understanding. I dont like it personally for a whole slew of issues. Once we diverge from the royal line the Lorenzo Snow Couplet becomes cloudy. Cuz I cannot in good consciousness compare my sin laden life with the experience that was Jesus Christ’s mortal ministry. Essentially - As I am, God never was. Not only did Jehovah perform our Atonement. He created worlds without number and our first parents. Jehovah’s experience as a carpenter will prepare him to become an architect (as Elohim now only creates spiritually) We then have to throw the Holy Ghost into the mix and it becomes even more murky. Is there a 3rd group of Gods who were Holy Ghosts? Also Jesus has asked us to follow his example. And to be perfect as he is. And he invites us to become members of the church of the firstborn. He wants all of us to become his Firstborns. Also, if we are to become as God is we have to learn EVERYTHING. Do you think we will learn it all through reading books or watching a VR class like Neo did in the Matrix. Because everything I have experienced in life as an athlete, missionary, father, surgeon, etc. has taught me that you learn some by coaching or reading but most is by trial and error, making mistakes and learning step by step why we do what we do. Eternity is a long time. There is time to learn and to perfect ourselves with the assistance of our leaders and heavenly parents. I cannot imagine anyone being able to spiritually create spirit children until they have adequately proved themselves. And finally how can you teach your firstborn to live a perfect life and perform an atonement? D&C 19:2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me-having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself- 3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. The above proves that although Jehovah will give all the Glory to the father, that nonetheless He will retain great power and understanding from his calling.

Yes @Rob Osborn recognizing that the three nephites visited Mormon somewhere between when he started inscribing the chapter and when he finished the chapter is of great import. There are other details as well... I have no idea of the names of the 3 Nephites though. But it is interesting that Mormon wanted to tell us. Probably the most important part of the chapter is the concept that Mormon displays of Reading, coming up with a question, Pondering, Cross Referencing, and most important PRAYING about the subject. Many churches do not understand the import of these steps.

I'm not sure if you are being difficult or if i'm just terrible at describing my thoughts... Lets assume that Lorenzo Snow's Couplet is true. "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be" Looking into the past It sure does leave a lot of wiggle room. But let's assume that the God Lorenzo is referring to is our Heavenly Father. Then Heavenly Father was once like us. He lived on an Earth and learned thru trial and error that the plan of salvation is true. If Heavenly Father in the far distant past experienced a life like us, then He sinned, thus required an atonement to allow him to overcome sin. Was the personage that atoned for our Heavenly Father our Heavenly Grandfather or our Savior Jesus Christ? Or was Heavenly Father a man like Jesus, did He live a perfect life on another Earth. And save his spiritual siblings? Or was Heavenly Father first a Man like us, then a Man like Jesus. Or was He never like us and is Lorenzo Snow mistaken? Looking into the future Lets assume that there is an intelligence. And lets give this intelligence the name Sam for convenience sake. Let us then assume that you become a God and begin to create your own spirit children. And Sam is one of the intelligences that you appropriate to make into a spirit child. Will Jesus Christ make a covenant with Sam within your new pre-mortal existence with all of your spirit children, or do you think that you will have your own firstborn that will serve as the savior for your spirit children.

From the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25: 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

https://www.gofundme.com/mayor-brent-taylor

So, if this John Doe will have Jesus Christ as his savior as well... Are we special in the eternities, because we knew Jehovah as a member of our pre-mortal existence, and He performed the Atonement on our Earth? And will Jehovah also reside within John Doe's pre-mortal existence. Because we had the opportunity during our pre-mortal existence to live with Jehovah and chose him as our Leader. Is Jesus Christ is only Savior that has ever existed? Or are there other Saviors in the eternities?

Study of the 28th chapter of 3rd Nephi is well worth the effort. An event of great import occurs within the chapter, but without careful investigation it will be unappreciated. Pay attention to Mormon’s voice, his actions, and commentary. I don’t wish to spoil the personal discovery, but for convenience I will point out that Mormon is giving us a perfect example of how to read the scriptures. The chapter can be divided into three sections. In the first part, verses 1-16, Mormon studied Nephi the Disciple’s manuscript and then inscribed the material into the Golden Plates. In the second part, verses 17-24, Mormon does some cross referencing and then shares with us his personal insight. In the remainder of the chapter - something special happens. It may help to visualize the setting wherein Mormon is writing. The following image is Tom Lovell’s Oil on Canvas work titled Mormon Abridging the Plates. The painting does have some inconsistencies with the text, but a picture can give a very useful impression. Mormon is an old man. With a little research, we find out that the writing of The Words of Mormon took place approximately during Mormon’s seventy-fourth year of life.[1] The collection of plates that Ammaron had hidden in the Hill Shim had been retrieved ten years earlier by Mormon.[2] In Lovell’s painting Mormon appears to be in the setting of a Temple or large well-appointed residence. Mormon was probably in a much more spartan setting. He had recently moved his people to the land of Cumorah in preparation for war. Apparently, he inscribed the material between The Words of Mormon and Mormon chapter six within the self-same year.[3] I recommend picking up the Book of Mormon and giving the chapter some scrutiny. In your mind, modify Tom Lovell’s illustration where you perceive differences within the text. For example, Mormon probably was not scuffing up prior prophet's manuscripts with his sandals... You can even direct your own movie if you want to; I certainly do. If you don’t find anything of significance with the first reading, keep studying. It may even benefit you to pray and ponder as needed. If there is any interest I will post a follow up of what I think is a pretty exciting find. [1] Mormon 1:6 (Age 11 at year 322 A.D.), Words of Mormon v. 2 (year 385 A.D.) [2] Mormon 4:23 [3] Mormon 6:2-6

I whole hardheartedly agree. But here's the rub. Lets take for example a hypothetical John Doe. John Doe is still in the pre-mortal existence. And He will be born 600 years into the Millennium. He will live a good life, be twinkled and enter into the Celestial Kingdom. Eventually, perhaps a billion or so years from now John Doe will arrive at the station where he is allowed to create spirit children. Will John Doe's spirit children need to have a mortal test similar to the one that you and I are currently experiencing? And will those spirit children need to have a Savior? If they do need a Savior... Do you think that that Savior will be our Jesus Christ or perhaps, John Doe's Firstborn in the spirit?

Esoteric absolutely. Indisputable nah. And you are welcome! Sure there is an abundance of additional material. And yes you have hit the nail on the head. I believe that in order to become like Heavenly Father we have to earn the knowledge, glory, power, experience, etc. And I think that it will be an exceptionally challenging and exciting transformation. For those who choose to follow the Father's path. There seems to be an element of LDS cosmology, that many have interpreted to mean that as long as you try hard, do your best and receive your temple endowments that you are pretty much guaranteed exaltation and get to live the life that Heavenly Father enjoys. I don't buy into that line of thought. This life was designed to forge each of us into something greater. Life was designed to challenge us and to refine our spirits into something that we could not learn in the pre-mortal existence. And I don't believe that our trials will be finished after the resurrection.

I had to pull up the dictionary. Am I dealing with a philosopher here? Of course from my position it seems more like exegesis. 😉

D&C 130:22 is awesome Core Doctrine. And it is indisputable. I know of no other core doctrine that describes Jehovah's corporeal nature during our pre-mortal existence. I like to point to the scripture Abr 3:24 "And there stood one among them that was like unto God" But this verse is not terribly descriptive. Only that Jehovah was like Heavenly Father (possibly of appearance, glory, or structure, we don't know). And Divine Investiture as described in The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve. Is the explanation whereas Jehovah can and does speak as if He is the Father. I previously listed many accounts where Jehovah (prior to his mortal ministry) appeared to prophets, and every one of those instances are curious. I agree. This is unsatisfactory. But we must agree that the form and manner of Chrit's birth was extremely different from all other mortals. And Jehovah was the Only Begotten long before He was born at Jerusalem. Moses 1:6, 13, 21, 32, 33; 2:1, 27; 3:18; 4:3; 6:52; 2 Nephi 25:12; Alma 9:26. It is also interesting that Satan attempted to claim the title Only Begotten during his rant in Moses 1:18-19. I don’t think that Satan was trying to convince Moses that the sire of his body of flesh and blood was Heavenly Father… The best scripture that we have about Christ's birth is the following Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

I have always use Long, Intermediate, and Short term goals. Worked for me Something that I learned long ago, was from a Cleon Skousen talk wherein he shared some advice from John A. Widtsoe. Widtsoe basically hammered into Skousen the importance of the following scripture. 2 Ne 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. Man is the thing that was created to act and to not be acted upon. Once you lock this scripture into your noggin and understand the importance of the concept the whole world begins to change in your mind. And I notice that this scripture is quoted or at least alluded to about 3-6 times in each General Conference. Goals assist us in acting and accomplishing much good.

Thanks for the correction. I side with those who think that Nephi saw the Holy Ghost in 1 Ne 11 1 Nephi 11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another. Marion G. Romney, James E. Talmage, Sidney B. Sperry, and Robert L. Millet all shared their viewpoint that the personage speaking with Nephi in 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost. These three references (the first is a General Conference talk and the other two are chapters in books) are excellent well written sources giving multiple reasons as to why it appears that the personage is the Holy Ghost. 1) In 1 Nephi 10:17 Nephi states that he “was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” And in 1 Nephi 10:22 Nephi testified that, "the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not." 2) Nephi never spoke of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Spirit of the Lord” when the Master appeared to him on other occasions (1 Nephi 2:16; 2 Nephi 11:2–3). 3) "Spirit of the Lord" phrase is used 40 times in the Book of Mormon and in all accounts, none of them describe Jehovah. In most cases, the Spirit of the Lord is used to explicitly describe the Holy Ghost. (Mormon 2:26, Mormon 5:16, & Moroni 9:4). 4) In 1 Nephi 11:6 the Spirit of the Lord uses the word Hosanna and worships both the Father and the Son. The word hosanna is from the Hebrew - ‘please save us’. Marion G. Romney, The Holy Ghost, Sunday Morning Session April 7 1974, Ensign Mary 1974 Sidney B. Sperry, Answers to Book of Mormon Questions, Ch 5 Did Nephi Talk to the Holy Ghost in Person, Bookcraft, SLC, UT (1967) Robert L. Millet, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” in First Nephi, The Doctrinal Foundation, ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1988), 161–76. Offering the contrary perspective, Bruce R. McConkie in the 2nd edition of Mormon Doctrine under the title of SPIRIT OF THE LORD writes: But when we read the account of the appearance of “the Spirit of the Lord” to Nephi (1 Ne. 11), we are left to our own interpretive powers to determine whether the messenger is the Spirit Christ or the Holy Ghost. Presumptively it is the Spirit Christ ministering to Nephi much as he did to the Brother of Jared, for such is in keeping with the principle of advocacy, intercession, and mediation, the principle that all personal appearances of Deity to man since the fall of Adam, excepting appearances of the Father and the Son together, have been appearances of Christ. Personally, I like the idea that the Holy Ghost visited Nephi and directly taught him the interpretation of Lehi’s dream. Nephi knew instinctively that this personage was a spirit. Nephi does not say why or how he knew that it was a spirit, perhaps the appearance of the personage was obvious. I think that there are obvious differences in the body that Mahonri saw and touched. At this point in time Jehovah could not have the prints in his hands or feet nor the slash in his side. And the Atonement changed him in more ways than just physical. And I do love the 3 Ne 1:13 quote. I'm still unsure if Jehovah was stating that tomorrow He would be placed in Mary's womb or if the prenatal Christ was able to have his voice heard from across the ocean while still in the womb. Or somewhere in-between. Probably the first.

I think that Jehovah witnessed the Father in a similar way that today's Saints witness and will continue to witness Jesus Christ in the hereafter. We don't witness the Father directly, but by witnessing the Son we, by proxy, get to witness the Father because Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father. If and when we make it to the Celestial Kingdom we will then be reunited with our Heavenly Father. I know you don't like my idea of inseparable having an alternate meaning. And I'm ok with that. Just as long as you recognize that I maintain my concept of a deity being able to don and doff physical element is a possible version of inseparable (I don't ask you to accept this idea). Jesus Christ has been able to modify his appearance or at least cast an illusion on his physical tabernacle at will. I believe that He can modify his appearance to be an adult in his prime or as rugged elderly gentleman. I'm not about to put limitations on his abilities. 🙂 Thank you. Here is the super cool thing about Ether 3:16. It is confusing, and I believe, done so by intention. It is so confusing that Moroni had to take editorial privilege and insert his own commentary. We see this occur multiple times within the Book of Mormon, but usually it is Mormon who is writing the commentary. Here Moroni follows his father's examples and feels the need to set the record straight. In Ether 3:17 Moroni writes " And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites." That is pretty powerful. Now we can quibble on the terms manner and likeness, but the content is remarkable. Moroni could have said that Jehovah showed Mahonri a personage of spirit similar to the personage that Nephi saw in 1 Nephi 11:11 but he didn't. He wrote what he wrote. And I like it.

If we were reunited with our pre-mortal memories at death, do you think that any of the people in spirit prison would need to have missionaries come to teach them about the gospel? Everyone that came here to Earth, actively fought against Lucifer and his minions during the pre-mortal war. We knew the plan of salvation during the pre-mortal existence and we knew GOD. Why do you think every knee will bow and every tongue will confess? Jesus Christ will convince everyone of their errors during the 2nd coming and prior to the final resurrection. But if you don't make it back to the Celestial Kingdom, you never get to see God the Father again... D&C 76:71-77 We make assumptions all the time. Many people assume that we will automatically be given our pre-mortal memories at death. What scripture or reference gives any credence to this idea? Ether 3:13 is clear, Mahonri penetrated the veil. He was redeemed from the fall, and was brought back into the Lords presence, And Jehovah ministered unto the Brother of Jared just as he ministered unto the Nephites. See Ether 3:17-18 and contrast that with 3 Nephi 11: 14-15. The temple symbolism becomes indicative. As far as I know, no other Christian churches believe in the pre-mortal existence. So when they die and go to paradise many of them will have already arrived in their perceived heaven. Unless you are a superstar like Adam, Abraham or the Brother of Jared - you dont even get to go to Heaven (the celestial kingdom) until the morning of the first resurrection just prior to the Second Coming...

Sorry for my late response, been busy From my studies about the veil, there are multiple but some are more important than others. 1. Veil as a piece of clothing - This veil interestingly allows the wearer to see but conceals the identity of the person whom is wearing the veil. As used by Leah on Jacob's wedding night. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/leah?lang=eng 2. Veil of darkness D&C 38:5-8, or Dark veil of unbelief Alma 19:6, Ether 4:15. Is a veil that is constructed by Lucifer and is made of chains instead of a cloth 2 Peter 2:24 3. Veil that was torn at the Death of Christ in the temple. Matthew 27:51. This miraculous event was probably both symbolic and miraculous sign. Before Christ's mortal ministry mankind really did not know the identity of God. And although in the pre-mortal existence when Jehovah volunteered to be our savior we did not know what that position required (but apparently Jehovah did). Even when Adam left the Garden and was performing burnt offerings (2 generations after he had been driven out of the garden) Adam did not know why he was performing the sacrifices. It was only after angelic instruction that the gospel began to be taught to mankind. Yet even so, man did not recognize the Messiah's role. The Jewish people totally misunderstood and still misunderstand the Messiah. Christianity only really began after Christ's death because at that time the veil was rent, we were finally able to recognize that Jesus Christ is our savior by means of the Atonement and Resurrection. 4. The veil that separates us from God the Father and our pre-mortal memories. This I believe is a real veil and is symbolically represented in modern day temples. When we leave the pre-mortal existence and God's presence, we pass thru the veil and our prior memories (but not our personalities) are taken from our recollection. When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom we must pass through this veil to recoup our memories. This event is best illustrated in Ether chapter 3 when Mahonri parts the veil and is reunited with his pre-mortal memories and recognizes our Lord and Savior for the first time. This also explains Jehovah's Statement in 3 Ether 15 "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image." Also of import is that we do NOT pass thru this veil at death. We are not reunited with our pre-mortal memories upon entrance into paradise or spirit prison. And those members of Gods children who elect to reside in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom will never regain their pre-mortal memories (this is a protective blessing). The above portion of Joseph Smith's April 7, 1844 conference talk, appears to talk about salvation from hell, and not Eternal Life. To me, by means of spreading the gospel and teaching that men should obey the commandments, we can assist others from damnation to the Telestial kingdom. Entrance into the Terrestrial kingdom require obedience to the Ten Commandments. But entrance into the Celestial Kingdom requires ordinances. I don't follow your last paragraph. There is Spirit, Physical Bodies, possibly even Intelligence. We don't really know all the ins and outs of how they work though. And I am not sure about their permanence. Otherwise the line of argument that is employed in Alma 42 would have no meaning. "if so, God would cease to be God." Finally, I love the chapter Ether 3. It is an awesome piece of literature. And it has loads of commentary. Many of which are worthless. I challenge you to read it with an open mind. And I wish to point out one thing. Spirit Body is a term that was created by Bruce McConkie to explain his understanding of this chapter. Body - The physical tabernacle of flesh. Personage of Spirit - A spirit without tabernacle of flesh which has the appearance of a man. 1 Ne 11:11, D&C 130:22 Body of Flesh and Blood - A mortal body. Matthew 16:17, 1 Cor 15:50, Mosiah 7:27 Translated being - A changed body, sanctified in the flesh. 3 Ne 28:36-40 Spirit of Just Men Made Perfect - A personage of spirit whom passed thru mortality but died and is awaiting the resurrection. D&C 129:3,6-7 Body of Flesh and Bone - An immortal body. Luke 24:39 Spiritual Body - An immortal body that is quickened with spirit instead of blood.[1] 1 Cor 15:44-45, D&C 88:27, Alma 11:45 Spirit Body - this term is not found within the scriptures. There is an entry found in the Topical Guide but none of the citations actually use the term. Mormon Doctrine has an entry titled Spirit bodies wherein McConkie defines the term as follows: Spirit Bodies - See Pre-existence, Spirit Birth, Spirit Children, Spiritual Bodies, Spirit World. Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities. The bodies so created have all the parts of mortal bodies. The Brother of Jared saw Christ’s spirit finger and then his whole spirit body. “I am Jesus Christ,” that glorious Personage said. “This body, which ye now behold is the body of my spirit; … and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.” (Ether 3:14-17) [1] “God Almighty himself dwells in eternal fire, flesh and blood cannot go there for all corruption is devoured by the fire-- our God is a consuming fire-- when our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in the tabernacles,--” Joseph Smith Jr., Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds May 12, 1844. As recorded in the Thomas Bullock report. Ether, the Brother of Jared, Moroni, and Joseph Smith each had a hand in our current understanding of the Chapter. Their words should be trusted.

I read D&C 130 as Jesus Christ having a pretty good sense of humor. Joseph Smith knew the Bible pretty darn well and he was familiar with, Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only And when He was earnestly praying to know the coming of the Son of Man the Lord answered him and let him know that he would not be privileged to this information either. verse 15 is really funny, trouble me no more on this matter. Yessir! We do see a hint of foreshadowing of his martyrdom in 1839 from this revelation in Liberty Jail, see D&C 122 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? 9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. "History, 1838–1856, volume F-1 [1 May 1844–8 August 1844]," p. 148, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed November 2, 2018, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-f-1-1-may-1844-8-august-1844/154 June 23,1844 And this of course D&C 135:4 When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:

Poor dwarf planet Pluto cant clear out its orbit...

I hope that we turn back to basics. And I would love to see the church come out with clarity declaring the importance of: Having families Stewardship of Men and Women defined without wavering Political duty (I totally wouldn't mind if we lost our tax exempt status - I'd still pay my tithing) My wife who graduated from J Ruben Clark back in the 80's just got into a flame war with some of the new students over a #changetheratio movement to have more women enrolled into our law school then men. it goes on and on. It seems like over the past few decades we have done our best to encompass all people of all backgrounds and beliefs as long as they adhered to the most basic instructions. There is a higher law. Boyd K. Packer used to get hate mail by the bag full over his conference talks. I don't think that that is a bad thing...