mikbone

It is both. He has had past experiences that let Him empathically understand our feelings. And He is omniscient. We can't hide anything from him. Joseph Smith has been quoted on numerous occasions stating that the 'Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.' If this is true then perhaps Both God the Father and Jehovah served in a state similar to that of the Holy Ghost prior to arriving at their exalted stations. These experiences would allow one to understand our collective lives and experiences... Sure at some time in the distant future. IF we are worthy, and climb the ladder or trod the path that those whom have gone before have done. We will be worthy of the same blessings that they now receive. Yes. Eternal life is to know the true God. And to know it, you must experience it. Experience comes through experience, there is no other way. That is why our beloved first mother partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You seem to believe that there is some short-cut that will let us bypass the work, fear and trembling portion of the plan of exaltation... That we will inherit Godhood and Exaltation without going through all the messy parts. Do you think that when we enter into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be granted an Urim and Thummin and that we will be able to interface with this supercomputer and immediately download all the experiences that we will need to act as a God and start populating our own worlds? What are your expectations? I am curious to know how you think it is going to transpire that you become a Goddess?

No, there is no experience that I have had that the Lord cannot understand. But that does not mean thar the converse of that statement is true. You see, I believe that the Lord is infinitely more experienced than you or I. He has been where I am now. He knows the challenges and difficulties. I on the other hand do not understand His ways. I can look at a 1st grader and sympathize with his trials. But that same 1st grader cannot understand the complications of my life. And the gulf between us and God is much more vast than myself and a 1st grader. And yes I believe that Christ knows what it is like to be a father, see Ether 3:15-16.

I copied this from a previous post I did back in April. Doctrine, from Latin doctrina, means "a body of teachings" or "instructions", taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. I have recently studied the concept of LDS doctrine and was happy to hear Brother Christofferson's talk during conference. LDS Church News - Elder D. Todd Christofferson: 'The doctrine of Christ' Recorded Video Newscasters are salivating at the possibility of an LDS member challenging our current President in the next US general presidential election. See the following two articles. This issue is probably going to come up again and again during the presidential election process... The Genesis of a church's stand on race - The Washington Post Church Statement Regarding 'Washington Post' Article on Race and the Church - LDS Newsroom The following documents have been making the rounds in other LDS discussion boards. Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom Mormon Doctrine: What’s Official, And What Isn’t? FAIR - What is “Official” LDS Doctrine? Doctrine Tier 1 – The Bible (as far as translated correctly – AoF 8), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, & The Pearl of Great Price. These scriptures were approved by the First Presidency, sustained by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and accepted by vote of the entire membership of the church None of the below items have been voted upon by the Church as a whole, and thus the items are not binding upon us a a people and a church. This of course does not infer that the below items are not true. But they do not technically make the hard definition of what is LDS Doctrine. Tier 2 – The Temple endowment narrative, Hymnal (D&C 25:11-12), Official Proclamations and Doctrinal Expositions signed and distributed by The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church. Tier 3 – Official Publications (Manuals, Handbook - LDS Church), Official talks and statements by General Authorities (General Conference Talks, Ensign First Presidency Message, etc.) Tier 4 – Official Policy (Priesthood denied to black men of African descent prior to 1978 Official Declaration - 2) Tier 5 – Books by General Authorities (Mormon Doctrine, Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, etc.) Tier 6 – Books by LDS Scholars (Hugh Nibley, Cleon Skousen, BYU professors of religion, etc...) That being said, when the Holy Ghost personally manifests a truth to a person, that truth supercedes the tier system (for that person). Although the lower tier items should be in harmony with the higher tier items... Exceptions do come into play though, for example, 1 Ne 4:10-18. Isaiah 55: 8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The ladder (path) is there before us. It has been well defined. But you have to climb it. Neither Christ nor Our Father can climb it for us. Elohim could not spare Christ from the cross although Christ petitioned him three times to do so. Do Celestial beings share anything with God? Yes of course. We are his offspring. He created us, thus our triumphs and shortcomings are his as well. But this does not necessairly does not mean that we can claim his accomplishments as our own. Shared experiences. It is a strange concept. Do you have children? If you do, you have had an experience that is special. There are years of joy, happiness, sleepless nights, sorrow, etc... Can a single person without children understand what it is like to be a parent? Does being an Uncle give the same expereinces as being a father, if the father and his brother discuss the sleepless nights and trials? Does watching an Olympic Marathon prepare you for breaking a world record in the 26 mile race? I love watching superhero movies. I still cannot fly, move objects with my mind, or punch through walls.

Yeah, in my opinion you misunderstand, me, Brother Christofferson, and Joseph Smith. I believe that they are clearly talking about what is to come for those whom are worthy in the hereafter... Fear and Trembling refers to the atonement. I will quote Joseph Smith one more time. We are at the bottom rung of the ladder. I haven't learned the first principle of exaltation. Can you name any of the principles of exaltation??? It is not to be comprended in this world! It will be a great work even beyond the grave. Joseph Smith was about to go into more detail but he could not because of all the over-wise saints that were in the audience whom he alluded to as traitors. Just try to suspend your current stance and read the King Follett sermon with the insight as if Joseph Smith is trying to share with you something of great worth. You must recognize that Joseph Smith had experiences and knowledge that superseded all of the following Latter Day Prophets. Or you could continue to be closed minded and refuse open your mind to anything that is not contained within the Bible.

D&C 93 is a great treatise of my position. Grace for Grace. I fear that many LDS read verses like John 17:22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" And come to the conclusion that we will be given Godhood instead of earning it grace for grace. I love D. Todd Christofferson's talk in oct 2002 conference tittled, That They May Be One in Us. The following is the penultimate paragraph from the above talk. Surely we will not be one with God and Christ until we make Their will and interest our greatest desire. Such submissiveness is not reached in a day, but through the Holy Spirit, the Lord will tutor us if we are willing until, in process of time, it may accurately be said that He is in us as the Father is in Him. At times I tremble to consider what may be required, but I know that it is only in this perfect union that a fulness of joy can be found. I am grateful beyond expression that I am invited to be one with those holy beings I revere and worship as my Heavenly Father and Redeemer. I believe that Brother Christofferson was referencing the following words of Joseph Smith When He made the above statement. The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971 - ensign

I hope you had a good vacation. I guess my issue is that some people think that when we exit this life that we will enter into the Celestial Kingdom and be co-equal with God. There was a recent post here on the forums wherein a person was told that we don't kneel in the celestial room because in there, we are equal with God. I think not. Lets look at the concept of the Lords 'Rest'. D&C 84:24 is the only scripture that I can find that defines the Lords rest. "rest is the fulness of his glory" Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. These scriptures, to me, suggest that the Lord's rest is WORK. Yes we are born with the potential to become like God. But it is not a sure thing. It must be earned. And I believe that the earning of the Lord's Rest will take much more time and effort that what can be achieved here on this Earth. There is much instore for those that are worthy. God does not 'owe' anyone exaltation. Lets look at the parable of the prodigal son as well. Most people who discuss this parable in Luke 15 dwell on the son that was lost who is given the fatted lamb. But it is important to see the results of the work of the good son. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Do you think that the prodigal son is going to receive an equal inheritance of the good son?

Mental Illness and George Albert Smith [uPDATED] By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; These two scriptures are pretty straightforward. In the pre-mortal existence, Jehovah was like unto God (enough to differentiate himself from the rest of us), and he was the Firstborn. The title Firstborn could mean many things... But my final conclusion is that before any of the rest of our brethren were organized as spirit children, Jehovah was there with the Father and He (Jehovah the pre-mortal Christ) had already obtained a station of god. How did He get there??? Best answer -- We don't know. But this answer is not very satisfying. Objectively, I only recognize 2 realistic options. 1) Jehovah was created differently then the rest of us, which imbued his spirit with special qualities. or 2) Jehovah had experiences, prior to our organization as spirit children of Elohim, that allowed him to progress much further than where we currently reside within the plan of salvation. Either way, the above assumptions lead to the conclusion that there is an ontological gap between Jehovah & the rest of Elohim's spirit children. Jehovah is unique no doubt. Personally, I think that Jehovah had been married prior to being born as a babe in Bethlehem.

The book of Abraham speaks for itself. Facsimile 2, and the intrepretation is awesome. It matters not to me that Joseph Smith needed a tangeable relic to bolster his faith to receive revelation. An excellent response is found in the ensign I Have a Question - Ensign July 1988 - ensign

show up.

I taught lesson 17 last week in Elders Quorum. The lesson went over great, we didn't shead any tears but all were edified. I am greatly looking foreward to the Lorenzo Snow manual for next year. I think that there is a problem with our society, inside and definately outside of the church. It can be summed up pretty easily. Man-up.

1) No, I do not have any secrets from God, nor have I experienced anything that He cannot understand. 2) This is because He is infinitely more experienced that I (or anyone else). 3) The place where you and I differ is that (please correct me if I am wrong), you seem to believe that if we receive entrance into the Celestial Kingdom we will be gifted with an infinite amount of experience, and knowledge by proxy. It is my belief that with the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom that we will have the opportunity, if we so choose, to continue progression. We will have the capacity to earn further experiences and knowledge by taking on new responsibilities and trials. I do NOT believe that we will be given any experience or knowledge without earning those experiences. As far as I am aware there is no 'Doctrine' concerning these concepts because it is not terribly important to our mortal trial. But common sense and Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse convinces me that more is in store for those who are worthy. April 7, 1844 Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse as recorded by George Laub

I send all my tithing directly to church headquarters. It's done electronically with bill pay every month and I get e-mail confirmation and yearly tax statements. We let the bishop know that we are full tithe payers at settlement. And no one in my ward has to know what my personal income is... Donations to Church Headquarters - LDSTech

Blog Post - Mormonism in the News: Getting It Right | August 29 LDS Church clarifies caffeine use for faithful | FOX13Now.com – Salt Lake City, Utah News & Weather from KSTU Television FOX 13 "Finally, another small correction: Despite what was reported, the Church revelation spelling out health practices (Doctrine and Covenants 89) does not mention the use of caffeine. The Church’s health guidelines prohibit alcoholic drinks, smoking or chewing of tobacco, and “hot drinks” — taught by Church leaders to refer specifically to tea and coffee." Mt. Dew party at my house!

lol, figured I'd get this response just not from you Vort. Archeologists think that the average size of a male during the time of Christ was 5'1" 110 pounds.

You are the quoting the parable of talents to support your position that the Lord reaps where He does not sow? The beauty of parables is that they are symbolic so they have multiple meanings. My favorite intrepretation is as follows. A talent is a measure of weight. See Matthew 25:14-29, & Bible Dictionary under the heading of weights and measures. A talent is thus both a token of value and a measurement of weight about 75-135 lbs. Talent (measurement) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So here is the question, in my opinion that makes the parable come to life. What weighs about 75-135 lbs and has value to the Lord? Perhaps the Lord is stating that Men are his servants. And Men (fathers / husbands) that fail in their stewardship shall lose their talents. Those men who were good stewards of their talents shall receive the talents of the poor stewards.

This scripture came to my mind, found in Moses chapter one. Remember this is when Moses is essentially in a temple celestial room. On a mountain top, in the presence of God. 9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth. 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. It appears from these verses that Moses did not feel that he was equal with God. Furthermore, instead of kneeling he fell prostrate upon the ground for the space of many hours. I would bet that Moses at this time was more experienced in spiritual things than your helpful sister...

There are differences. Looking at the example you gave of God knowing what it is like to give birth. My wife just birthed our 10th child. She labored. I stayed there with her and performed the home birth. I served as the delivering physician, husband, and father. I did not feel her feelings, but I have had physical trials in the past & I remembered my feelings during those trials and thus had sympathy for her. But I did not go through the 9 months of carrying the child, experience the pain of labor, or the recovery. No doubt God has gone through experiences worse than childbirth so he can imagine the degree of pain a woman goes through during childbirth. But it is not the same. Not quite. The anatomy class I experienced which was very good, emphasized identifying structures. I passed the class with highest honors. But that class was woefully inept in preparing me for my current vocation. We totally removed the skin from our cadaver before identifying organs. The tissues were totally dead and embalmed. We did not learn variations in innervation or diversity that can occur due to sickness or just simple irregular anatomy. Today when I perform surgery, I have to perform dissection through small incisions, in internervous planes between compartments and be aware of diseased alive tissue with possible irregular anatomy. Anatomy class did not prepare me for Orthopaedic surgery. My residency prepared me for my practice. But I continue to learn on a diaily basis... Yes I did not invent the computer. I do use one on a daily basis and I have learned over the years how to become more proficient at accomplishing tasks with the computer. But... If you put me in a room with all the raw materials that I would need to create a computer on my own. I could not do it. If you want to have your eyes opened check out this site The Toaster Project What do you base this statement upon? Actually Satan hoped that he would be given glory & honor for his works. Moses 4:1Jehovah was willing to follow the Father's plan and give all the glory back to the Father. Moses 4:2 Faith is a complex subject. There is faith that a thing exists. And then there is faith that inspires a person to action. The Lectures on Faith is a great treatise on the subject. Within the lectures one learns that Faith is Power. And that Faith is the principle of action. Without faith that breakfast existed in my kitchen this morning, I might not have gotten out of bed. But I knew that I could make myself breakfast so I got up. 2 Nephi 2:14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. Faith is the principle which gives man the ability to act.

Or perhaps ever further testing... I don't believe in inheritable experience. I also don't want to get into a debate about what Christ did in Gethsemane and on the Cross because we just don't know, but... The Atonement allows Christ to make it as if our sins NEVER occurred, after we go through the steps of repentance. Man cannot be saved in their sins. If you think about the difference between the concept of paying for our sins versus making it as if our sins never occurred. The difference is vast. The Atonement was infinite. Trying to put a quantity of pain or sin that He experienced during that trial is irrational. My past experience has let me to believe so. Dunno. Maybe He dosen't. She must. I am sure that they are a very close couple and that God is perfectly empathic though...

Hypothetically lets say I own a sausage factory. I'm about to retire and I want my son to take over the business. If he has no experience with running a sausage factory how do you think the business will do?

I would suggest that in order for one to have God's experience, one would have to pass through a similar experience. Perhaps that is what we have to overcome... D&C 75:16, 22; D&C 76: 60

I believe that the veil erases memories, not character. Moses 5:24, Abr 3:23 Thoses people with brain damage have altered tests. Character, personality, etc. comes from our true selves, our soul. The soul is the combination of our spirit with the body. It is my personal belief that our physical brain communicates with our spiritual brain. Your argument suggests that personality is a function of 'brain wiring'. I don't see it that way. You may perceive the brain as a complex hard drive. I think of it as a connection to our real, or spiritual brain. I'll try to make analogy to help you see my point. The new large telescopes that we currently employ do not even have the ability to allow a person to view an image through glass directly onto the retina. Why? Because our eyes are very limited in perception. We only see in snapshots of visible light. Instruments can see in entire electromagnetic wavelength, infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, gamma ray, etc. With this new perception we have discovered so much more about our universe. Neuroscientist, psychologist etc. are like people looking through a spyglass. They can only study a limited portion of the brain. Thus they have come up with concepts like subconscious, ego, superego, etc. So citing current studies about genetics or neuropsych don't really have any relavence to this topic in my opinion. Our souls are infinitely more complex than a collection of electrical impulses.

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. It makes sense to me that we get to keep the benefits of our labors thru each testing period. So yes I believe that personality, intelligence, habits, etc.., pass from test to test. Finally, any parent with multiple children (I have 10 btw), recognizes that personality is inborn.

Good point. I bet that the Catholic church has a huge depository of 'holy relics'. One of my favorites 'relics' has to be the spear of destiny, and Hitler's obsession with it. But I was trying to focus on objects that we as latter day saints believe to be imbued with miraculous properties. Such as the pot of manna or the brass plates that would never rot nor tarnish. It seems totally rational that a garment made by God's hand would not decay, Moses 4:27.