mikbone

Without death Christ would not have been able to resurrect and break the bands of death thus all of mankind would had had to remain eternally in the spirit world. It also allowed Him to visit the spirit world see D&C 138. I also feel that the penal substitution theory of the atonement is unsatisfactory. The atonement is infinite, men and our sins are finite.

Dont know. 3 Nephi 28:37-40 is probably the best scripture to describe the change other than rhe passages where we see the resurrected Jesus Christ eat honey and fish and in 3 Ne 17: 21 Christ weeps so we know he has tear glands... But if there is no blood in a celestial body, many current organs will be superfluous or will have a different function...

Do we witness Jehovah's atonement? 3 Nephi 27:21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. The following commentary is from Joseph Smith’s farwell General Conference address. “the scriptures inform us that Jesus said, ‘as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power’, to do what? Why what the Father did; the answer is obvious, in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? if you do not believe it, you do not believe the bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then is eternal life— to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be Kings and Priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small capacity to a great one, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation... “ In my mind, the Prophet is presenting some very important concepts: 1) Jesus Christ was empowered by the Father’s example to both atone and resurrect. 2) God the Father had previously served as a Savior. 3) Jehovah witnessed the Father’s atonement. 4) We have so much more to learn and do in the hereafter.

On this we agree. The highest Latter-Day Saint theology asks us to make this association.

I agree. I found it interesting recently when going over this talk that Neal A. Maxwell appears to have similar perception. Beyond the Beyond seems to indicate something that will occur in the far distant future in our eternal progression

Yes, many times. I refuse to call it the King Follett Discourse or even worse, the KFD. I refer to it as Joseph Smith’s final general conference talk of April 7, 1844. The other title is a travesty. Even worse then calling Latter-Day Saints Mormons. /gasp I could go on and on about the address, maybe another time...

Please put me out of my misery!

https://www.lds.org/topics/christians?lang=eng See, for example, Roger E. Olson, The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition and Reform (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 1999); D. Jeffrey Bingham, ed., The Routledge Companion to Early Christian Thought (London: Routledge, 2010); Daniel W. Graham and James L. Siebach, “The Introduction of Philosophy into Early Christianity,” in Noel B. Reynolds, ed., Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy (Provo, UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Brigham Young University Press, 2005), 205–37.

From Neal A Maxwell’s April 2001 conference talk “But Christ’s unique submissiveness has always been in place. Indeed, He has “suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11), keenly observing His Father all the while: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19). This verse carries intimations of grand things--beyond the beyond.”

Amen President Nelson.

I think that this is extremely important. It is OK to pray to Jehovah / Jesus Christ while in his presence. So people like Joseph Smith (D&C 93), the Brother of Jared, Moroni (Ether 4), etc. May at times pray directly to Jesus Christ. Perhaps even those whom are seeking their calling and election... For the rest of us lowly humans we should probably use the normal technique.

I agree with Joseph Smith and think that it does matter. For example, when I was about 12, I watched The Ten Commandments and for many years I thought of God the Father as the voice within the burning bush... Over the years As I have continued to read, study, experience life, father, pray, attend the temple my perception of God has changed. For example when I read Ender’s Game I envisioned an extremely introverted intelligent 6 year old general mastermind. When I saw the recent movie I was totally disappointed. I think we can have a close relationship with Jesus Christ because he loves us and through the Holy Ghost and Ordinances we “Witness” him, his life, his teachings, and of course the saving grace of the Atonement.

McConkie is one of my favorite apostles of my youth. He was a prolific writer and loved to dabble in esoteric doctrine. My copy of Mormon Doctrine looks like it went thru war. And my love of doctrine probably has much to do with reading this text. Unfortunately the original edition of MD was full of errors. And the text is now out of print (by design I assume - because it is still widly popular with the membership). I assume that He ment that Heavenly Father is the Spiritual Creator as opposed to the Physical Creator. One of my favorite analogies is the comparison of God the Father and Jehovah to an Architect and Carpenter.

Although the verses in scripture that refer to pre-mortal life would only compose about three or four pages of our current canon, that material gives us great insight. (Called and Prepared from the Foundation of the World, Neal A. Maxwell, April 1986). When we look at the character of Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, do we recognize that he was vastly different than the remainder of the spiritual children? 1) Abraham 3: 24 Jehovah is described as one like unto God. When Abraham saw all the pre-mortal spirits, He recognized that Jehovah was more like God than He was like the rest of us. 2) Moses 1:33 When Jehovah is speaking to Moses as if He is the Father (Divine investiture). We learn that under the direction of the Father Jehovah created worlds without number. 3) In D&C 88:6-13 we learn that the Light of Christ is the power by which the Stars, the Sun, and the Earth were made. That the light that both enlightens our eyes and quickens our understanding was available and functioning during the physical creation. Jehovah not only made the Sun. But the He produced the Light of Christ. We may have assisted Jehovah in the construction of this Earth, but it is unlikely that we assisted in the creation of the Sun, Galaxy, or known Universe. We don’t know how much of the physical Universe was created by Jehovah, but we do know that He created worlds without number. The Light of Christ, and the redeeming power of the Atonement appear to be interrelated. The Light of Christ is a power that required Jehovah to be in all and through all things, and through the Atonement Jesus was able to both ascend on high and descend below all things. It is of significant note that the redeeming power of the Atonement functioned proactively. This Light of Christ is a power that is poorly understood and rarely gets the recognition that it deserves. It works hand in hand with the testimony of the Holy Ghost, but it is its own entity and comes from its own source. The Light of Christ endows mankind with a conscience and allows us to judge good from evil. (Moroni 7:16-19) Some atheists claim that they are better than the superstitious godly believers because they do good, not because they fear hell or hope for a reward like the Christians, but because they are humanitarians. Atheists perceive the Light of Christ just like any other God-fearing man or woman, they just follow their conscious without recognizing the fount from which it is derived. 4) Moses 5:57 For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world. 5) John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6) When Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation was presented to the spirit children. Jehovah presented the plan. Abraham 3:24-28 I believe Jehovah was the only character besides Elohim that understood that the plan required a Savior. And I think that Jehovah understood what this role demanded. 7) We learn from the war in heaven Revelations 12: 7-11 & Moses 4:3 that Neither Elohim nor Jehovah actively participated in the conflict. Michael was our General and by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of our testimony we prevailed against the dragon. Jehovah then cast out Lucifer under the direction of the Father.

fixed 😉

Exactly. This is the question. As stated by Joseph Smith, we have to have a correct idea of whom God is to truly develop faith. Vort may be worshiping beings. Others may be worshiping attributes. Our understanding of the character of God and Jesus Christ is paramount in our devotion and worship. Thus we should do our best to get to know them better. Thru prayer and even study. Unless you have had your calling and election made sure, you don't know them. The more we know about God and successfully emulate his character, the closer we come to true worship.

I agree, we pray to the Father. But we do so in the name of Jesus Christ (not the blessed virgin or st. genevieve, or the rosary). Perhaps if you have been through the temple you have seen how communication to the Father occurs.

I use the following visual aid to help illustrate how prayer most commonly functions. Because of sin we have separated ourselves from the presence of the Father. We pray to Elohim through Jesus Christ our Mediator. And the Holy Ghost most commonly answers our prayers. Of course the Father is the prime mover in all things. You can say that Elohim is answering our prayers though the Holy Ghost. And although Jesus Christ can answer prayers directly, those instances are few and far between.

Im a doc and my wife graduated from JRCLS. One time she told me that to answer her legal ethics class she would ask herself, what would Jesus do in this situation? And then she would pick the opposite answer. And sometimes Docs are duty bound to not treat their patients. Some patients want things that they just dont understand.

I believe that it is a valid question. (Thanks SilentOne and Zeezrom) Elohim set in motion the plan of salvation for a purpose. His intention is not to push all of his spirit children into perfection. He is allowing us to prove ourselves and chose our own destination. When we accepted the opportunity to come to earth and experience sin we all accepted the requirement of a Savior. Jehovah volunteered for that position. We are dependent upon Jehovah and his saving grace. After we have proved ourselves and re-enter into the Father's presence I believe that He will give us a debriefing, and then allow us to continue progressing.

My intention is not to lessen our perception of Heavenly Father. I think that we should do a better job to understand the character of Jehovah / Jesus Christ. I personally think that Jehovah is significantly greater than many give him credit. His Father is exponentially greater. When Moses was first introduced to Jehovah, he recognized that "man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1: 10 And remember that Moses was no slouch, he was second in line to be Pharaoh. And an extremely powerful and intelligent man. Mankind is just starting to scratch the surface of basic knowledge of the universe. Jehovah created worlds without number under the direction of the Father. Moses 1:33

Let me put it another way. Can Elohim save me in my sins?

It is a difference of perspective. Please try not to use terms like you are mistaken. The Father allowed me to embark on a trial of mortality. In the pre-mortal existence we all knew, walked and talked with our Heavenly Father. While in the pre-mortal existenced Jehovah volunteered to become our Savior and I accepted him as such. Jesus Christ's Atonement is what allows me to become clean from sin and once again enter into the presence of the Father. The plan of Salvation is the Father's plan no dobut. But Christ is the Savior. For clarity, last week the Gospel Doctrine lesson was on Isaiah, lesson 38 "Besides me there is no Savior" Without the Savior we would all be lost.