mikbone

What glory are you claiming? Why do you suppose that Moses stated, "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1:10. And I'm pretty sure that Moses was much more advanced spiritually than you or I... When Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son, he stated that their Glory defied all description and that they were brighter than the noon day sun. Do you know what you see if you put me into a dark room? Nothing.

My argument is that faith alone without works is worthless. From your writing it seems that you believe that the act of faith alone is sufficient. Perhaps you have felt that I have over stressed works. I don't think that after this life everyone that makes it to the celestial kingdom will automatically have the intelligence and skill to perform all kinds of surgery, fly airplanes, etc. And the skills that one must perfect to become like God is infinitly more complex than simple surgery. There was no purpose in learning the function, anatomy, let alone surgical repair of a physical body during the pr-emortal existance, thus I seriously doubt that those subjects were taught during our pre-mortal schooling. One of the main purposes of coming to Earth was to learn about bodies and physical matter. I can't play a musical instrument other than my voice and a whistle and I'm pretty rotten at both. I wish that I had some skill in music but I have never really put forth the effort to learn. My first piano teacher told my mother that I was hopeless. I am pretty sure that on the other side I will have the opportunity to learn how to play music, but I will not be endowed with the ability to do so without practice. Perhaps I knew some music in the pre-mortal existence. Its obvious that some mortals like Motzart were musically gifted prior to coming to earth. It appears that I was not. No doubt we will learn much faster and our resurrected bodies will be more adept but we still have learning to do. Lots of learning. You see, many people believe that upon entering into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be blessed with ultimate power and abilities, I don't. Knowledge, power, and skill will come line upon line, precept upon precept. You have to earn everything that you get even in the hereafter.

John the Baptist was ordained at age of 8 days old. D&C 84:28

When Jesus did the Atonement he received glory. He earned my and your honor. We honor him. We look to Him for salvation, there is none other that can save us, not even the Father. The elements obey him when he speaks. He created the Earth and the physical matter with which we are composed. When we give priesthood blessings we do so in the name of Jesus Christ. You claim that Jesus is a vector that only passes glory through to the father. Yet you also claim that some of that glory is yours and everyone else that follows in his plan. Moses followed the Savior yet after He was introduced to Jehovah for the first time he stated "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1:10. Yes the Father is glorified in the Son because the Father showed Jehovah what to do, and He assisted the Savior throughout the pre-mortal existance and mortality. It was Elohim's plan that Jehovah become our Savior. But you and I cannot claim glory from the Atonement. We can take advantage of the Atonement and return to be with God because of the Grace of God. I believe that we can eventually earn glory and honor because of the gifts that the Lord and Savior have given us. It seems like a great idea, but practically it just doesn't work. For example, I fixed a broken femur this morning. It was fractured in 4 pieces. I first opened the thigh laterally then I methodically worked to get the pieces of bone back together with multiple reduction clamps, traction, and pins. Then I placed a precontoured plate on to the bone and placed multiple screws through the plate permanently fixing the bone to the plate. This will allow the bone to heal in a correct position. I learned how to do this through book study, a 5 year residency, and many years of previous orthopaedic cases. No one can learn how to do what I did today through faith alone. No doubt faith helped me to learn faster but the practical knowledge and experience was necessary. Would you rather have Thomas S. Monson or Dieter F. Uchtdorf pilot your next plane to your vacation destination?

Well, Jehovah in Moses 4:2 said the Glory be thine forever. But here is the thing. Jehovah is not a vector that simply transfers Glory to the Father. Jehovah has earned honor and glory. And He has it in spades. Do we Honor Jehovah? Does He have Glory? Why do we Honor Jehovah? Why does He have Glory? They are different yet have similarities. Honor is way more powerful then authority though. Someone follows thoes in authority because they fear the repercussions of disobedience. We follow those that we Honor because we wish to be like them and have faith that their course will bring us happiness. God has both authority and honor, no? I never said I knew who he was. But He is more advanced than you and I, of this there is no doubt. He is a member of the Godhead. This shouldn't really be a debate... Please see In These Three I Believe - Liahona July 2006 I agree that if we make it though this test that we will never be under Lucifer's control again. But, I have a gut feeling deep down inside that there will be continued trials and difficulties. It is the by far the best way to learn and grow. I can't imagine giving omnipotent knowledge and power to my 2 year old son. He would have the earth destroyed in an afternoon. We will be given authority and power as soon as we have adequately proved that we are worthy to partake of that power and authority.

Please see “His Great Heart Almost Breaking”

Please see “His Great Heart Almost Breaking” to see how this verse applies to the Father. Yea, all things. The authority and the responsibilities. The blessings and the challenges. Those who make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom are not damned and are blessed with the opportunity of Eternal progression and ALL that comes with it. Oh boy... This is a whole different topic. We don't ever say that because someone holds an office that they are better than everyone else. But those who are chosen for an office are usually chosen for a wise purpose. Perhaps they have more talents, or are more worthy or dedicated, take your pick. The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. He is more advanced than you or I. Accept it. You and I probably have a different understanding of Honor. I honor President Obama because of the office, he is my president. For some reason that I cannot understand, the majority of Americans voted him to be our President. I do not agree with his politics and I hope that we will have a different outcome in 2012. I honor Jesus Christ because of what he did for me. I don't honor his office. Lucifer petitioned for the position of Savior because he wanted the honor that he thought was awarded with the office. See D&C 29:36 "Give me thine honor, which is my power." Moses 4:1-2, Abraham 3:27-28 The following quote is from Brandon Sanderson. He is a LDS Fantasy novelist who recently wrote The Way of Kings a highly successful and very good book btw. In the book is a quote that I took note of because I loved it so much. And becuase it is true. "Authority doesn't come from a rank" “Where does it come from?” “From the men who give it to you. That’s the only way to get it.” Believe me. We honor the Man not the office. Anyone male with functional sperm can be parent. It takes a great deal more to be a father that is honored by his children.

D&C 84:23 ... which rest is the fulness of his glory Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is to do the same thing that God does. I don't think that He has an easy job. We do not have much of a record of what the Father actually does. Most of the interaction that we have had with God in the scriptures has been with Jehovah or Jesus Christ. Matthew 27:46 must have been a trial of sorts.

Is the Holy Ghost ahead of us or equal with us? The Joseph Smith quotes clearly state the the Holy Ghost will have the opportunity to become a mortal Savior. Not just go through mortality like you and me. This leads to only 2 options that I can think of. Either Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost are traveling a seperate path that we cannot follow. Or they are ahead of us on the same pathway that we follow. I believe that there is only one pathway. This pathway leads to Exaltation and Eternal lives 132:24, although there are many side paths that lead away from the ultimate destination... I appreciate your stance. And I wholeheartedly believe that you will be able to "rest" if you so choose. But from my understanding of the Lord, His rest seems alot like work (Moses 1:39).

I think that your and my interpretation of Skousen is different. We cannot lay claim upon the atonement until after we have repented for our sins. D&C 19 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent: 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; The Atonement does not save us in our sins. After we have repented of all our sins and overcome them, we are still dirty. The atonement does something that alows us to cleans ourselves in the blood of the lamb such that we will be allowed readmittance to God's presence. Essentially the atonement makes it such that we had never committed the sin. Skousen and I do not know the details of how it works. But he attempts to at least give a reason as to how justice is appeased. I personally think that after the resurrection that our progression is going to continue, and that we will be required to continue with difficult tasks. I think that the Atonement is conditional upon our continued progression and sacrifice. Skousen dosen't go that far Dude, you challenged me to give you a quote that substantiated that Widtsoe introduced some of the concepts of the theory to Skousen. It wasnt easy btw. In Skousen's model these lesser intelligences are the souls that required the atonement to appease their sense of justice. You see, it is not fair that these lesser intelligences were dammed by their mistakes or shortcomings, yet we (mankind) are going to be allowed to continue progressing despite our sins. The Widtsoe passage that I quoted infers that plants, animals, and the earth itself are intelligences. Intelligences that have been placed into spirits, and then into physical matter or bodies be they mineral, plant, or animal. These lesser intelligences will never have the opportunity to become like God is. Yet you and I, because of the Atonement, have to opportunity to continue to progress infinitely. These lesser intelligences are the things that are acted upon in 2 Nephi 2:14. Apparently the Atonement also causes these lesser intelligences to honor God. D&C 88:6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

This probationary state is very important. It is the one in which we can experience sin and learn to overcome it or not. But there is much learning and experience that we have to go through before we can become like God is. Check out D&C 122: 5-7 and remember that in these verses that the Lord is communicating with Joseph Smith while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. Please focus on the last sentence in verse 7, "know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Then ask yourself why in the world would those hardships be for Joseph Smith's Good? Why will he benefit from the experience of having the very jaws of hell gape open after him??? Sure. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is more advanced than we currently are. He is a member of the Goodhood afterall... Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items" Holy Ghost in Probationary State Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again.

Abraham 3:22-26 Whether the references in sacred writ concerning the pre-existence of all life, plant and animal, justify the belief that individuality is preserved even in the lower orders of creation, must remain, until further light is obtained, a matter of personal opinion. The wording of the above quotations from the Pearl of Great Price seems to imply the pre-existence of individual life everywhere. Certainly, the earth on which we live is an imperishable, living organism: And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law -- Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it. (D. & C. 88:25, 26) John A Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations p.157

I don't know. There is so little that has been revealed about Elohim's Spouse... We are taught that we will be judged by our thoughts, words, and actions. Revelation 20:12, D&C 76:111, 1 Nephi 15:32, Abraham 3:25–28 D&C 137:9, Alma 41:3 Alma 12:14 Yes those with disabilities and such that have died before age 8 will be judged much more leniently. But as clearly stated in D&C 130:18-21: Those who learn and experience more in this life will have a great advantage in the world to come. Why would one want to have an advantage in the world to come??? Especially if we are just going to show up and accept an inheritance? For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

We are both stating quite different things. Primarily because of Joseph Smith's KFD, I have come to the conclusion that Elohim was once a Savior. Elohim set the example that Jehovah was able to follow. And in turn Jehovah has set an example for us that we may follow if we so choose. It is my belief, that if we want to become like God is, that we have to go through the same steps that HE passed through. Joseph Smith stated it in quite simple terms. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes Joseph Smith wanted to reveal this truth to the Saints but he knew that he could not in public because of the apostates and weak minded members. Apparently they were unwilling to consider the concepts that he was trying to relate... It is my belief that Joseph Smith was instructed that in order to become like God is, one must pass through a probationary state as a Savior. I know that this may seem like blasphemy to many, but if you read the KFD in contex it starts to make sense. The obvious question then arises??? How can we become a Savior? Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's famous detective Sherlock Holmes said 'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.' I believe that this mortal life is not our final test. There are probably many, many more forthcoming. If you wanna be a God you gotta earn it. And it aint gonna be easy.

We are not sure on the total number but it was a large group of Saints during General Conference. Your previous post made it sound like it was a funeral speech to a non-lds group. Many current saints believe that It was one of the most beautiful and profound speeches that Joseph Smith ever gave, myslef included. But as you know there were many future apostate members there at the time which he alluded to during the discourse. My initial comment was primarily upon the paragraph: We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes Wherein I was trying to point out that when Joseph Smith used the terms "lay down my life, and take it up again," he was directly referencing John 10:17-18 (I bolded the section above to emphasize the fact that Joseph Smith was referencing John) Which to me clearly states that Jesus can atone (sacrifice himself) and resurrect. So in my mind Joseph Smith is trying to state that Elohim also was a Savior... Nope. There is another option.

Check out this recent Ensign article by D. Todd Christofferson - Justification and Sanctification - Ensign June 2001 I particularily like the paragraph “That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear [justify] the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness” (D&C 76:40–41). You may notice that D. Todd in this article uses many of the same scriptures that Skousen / Widtsoe commented upon.

Not quite. You dismissed my post. But thats understandable as I have dismissed your original blog. I mentioned that Skousen's original 9 page written discourse as found in The First 2,000 years quoted 36 scriptures. I added the 2 Ne 2:14 scripture to explain that Skousen's idea is not his alone. That the apostle John A Widtsoe spoon fed much of the information to Skousen. But you haven't done your homework. You wrote a blog which hasn't received much response and then came here to this site to get some people to appreciate your astute commentary. You tried to resurrect my old post from May '09 and trash another member of the Chruch who has bolstered at least my testimony no doubt many others. I'll write it once more. Christ's atonement provides us a way to overcome the effects of sin that remove us from the presence of God. We do not know the details of how it works. Christ did suffer in Gethesemane and on the cross to allow us to overcome the effects of our sin. BUT he did not suffer for our sins. When Jehovah decided to become the Savior for us during the pre-mortal existence his destiny was sealed. The amount of suffering that he partook of was infinite and eternal. It is a great misconception that Christ suffered directly for our sins. Many people think that when they sin that they are adding to the amount of suffering that Jesus already sustained. It is not so.

I'm not quallified to answer your question. You should speak with your Bishop directly. But... The Joseph Smith - King Follett Discourse quote that you gave indicates that you are not guilty of the ultimate sin against the Holy Ghost. That sin has significant requirements. You have to basically see and speak with the Savior, understand the plan of salvation, have the Holy Ghost bear wittness to you that it is truth. And then reject it and fight against it. For example Cain and Judas Iscariot. There is hope yet.

Skousen is stating that the lesser intelligences are plants, animals, and the earth itself. D&C 88:42, Abraham 4:18, Jacob 4:6, Mormon 8:24, Helaman 12: 8-21 These intelligences obey the Lord without question. It is mankind with our free agency that are the only ones that are allowed to disobey (yet because of the atonement we can eventually overcome our disobedience).

I doubt that you can lay down your life. And I know that no one other than Jesus Christ could take it back up again. In my mind Joseph Smith is trying to relate the nature of Jesus Christ, that he was able to give up his life and resurrect himself, please see John 10:17-18. You may want to do some more research on the King Follett Discourse. Here is a good source - The King Follett Discourse: Joseph Smith’s Greatest Sermon in Historical Perspective The King Follett Discourse was actually Joseph Smith's final general conference (The 14th Annual Conference), wherein he gave a 2.5 hour talk during Sunday session. It was given to an audience of around 20,000 people - the overwhelming number of which were LDS. As to your question, Do I believe that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father? Yes and No. I agree with Joseph Smith's Statement: I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation The Savior will inherit a Kingdom and present it to the Father. Do I have a Kingdom to inherit? Not yet thats for sure. Do I have the potential to eventually do so? It is my hope.

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, p.346 I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. In the above scripture, it looks like there are 2 separate thrones that are being discussed.

Im not sure if we are going to have one. In the past a scholar had to have a great grasp on the doctrine and incredible memory of scriptures in which to compose their work. Now any Tom, **** or Harry can use a simple computer search function to come up with a multitude of information. Just try to imagine the work that McConkie did putting together Mormon Doctrine without a computer to search the scriptures. The team that is putting together the Joseph Smith Papers are doing an incredibly awesome and schollarly job.

“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970) My suggestion, pray about it and do what you feel is right.

I disagree. I have read and studied Skousen's The First 2000 years and I loved it. I felt the spirit particulairly strong when he explained Why was the Atonement necessary? as found in his Appendix B of the book. It opened my understanding and gave me a much greater appreciation for what Jesus Christ did for us. In my opinon, Skousen's commentary is harmonious with the many, many scriptures that we have which explain the atonement. In fact it was one of many concepts that brought me to a conclusion that the plan of salvation is much more vast than I had previously assumed. I don't know if you actually read Skousen's Appendix B or just the spoken talk that he gave to the missionaries in Texas. Sometimes people do a much better job of communicating via written word than spoken... But In his appendix B of only 9 pages he quotes 36 separate scriptures. I love the commentary given in Texas about 2 Nephi 2: 14, and remember this scripture and intrepretation was given to Skousen by Widtsoe. I hope you don't have anything negative to say about Widtsoe btw. The scripture 2 Ne 2:14 has been quoted over and over by the general authorities during general conference.

I have never heard any commentary on the matter. But for me, I suppose that they are permanent. I bet the belly button is a permanent fixture also. I would not be suprised in the least, If the Father had similar markings.