mikbone

The Veil I think that the idea of the veil as it has been used in this thread varies from user to user so much that confusion has resulted. It has anyway for myself. When I think of the veil I think of an actual physical barrier / ordinance that one passes through. 1) When we leave the pre-mortal existence we pass through this barrier and lose our memories (but curiously not our personalities) 2) When someone has their calling and election made sure they actually enter the veil and are re-acquainted with their pre-mortal memories. See Ether 3: 13-15. 3) One can be temporarily pulled through the veil and then re-veiled. 4) A person can see God and not have been brought through the Veil. For example Cain, 14 year old Joseph Smith. 5) Only those persons that enter the Veil will receive their pre-mortal memories, thus anyone that does not attain the Celestial Kingdom will not be privy to their pre-mortal memories. Adam & Eve were obviously Veiled. They did not possess their pre-mortal memories while they were in Eden. Yet they were sinless and thus were still able to abide in God's presence. When they transgressed and fell they were then separated from God. They were exposed to God for I assume many years prior to the fall and they must have been extremely intelligent and taught by the best teacher of all time. They were obviously taught about the Gospel. But I believe that Adam had no idea that by partaking of the forbidden fruit that he was condemning Jehovah to the Atonement.

Eve was beguiled. God outsmarted Lucifer. Alma 42 describes a situation wherein if Adam and Eve had partaken of the Tree of Life immediately after partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that the plan of salvation would have been fustrated. But the Lord God placed cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the Tree of Life. This is how Lucifer was outwitted.

I believe that they were taught many important things in the Garden of Eden. But I do not think that they had a full understanding of the consequences of their actions, or many details concerning the plan of salvation. Moses 5: 6-10

Actually, it's more important that you do the right thing for the right reason. Faith without works is dead. But good deeds without proper intent is pathologic.

Check out - Joseph Smith Papers This is an awesome project. I have started reading the first volume of the Journals.

Get your temple recommend and go to a session. Youll find out. :) See also Matthew 6:7

How about this: Satan/Dominion over waters - FAIRMormon

Yeah, just keep reading on for another verse... In Ether 3:17 Moroni does add some particularily interesting commentary.

Logically, it makes sense that a physical body would give a soul a great advantage in manipulating physical matter. But current doctrine implies that Jehovah (pre-embodied) Jesus Christ organized the physical creation whereas God the Father (a resurrected celestial being) planed the spiritual creation... Also Satan has been given dominion over the seas. When the brother of Jared commanded the Mount Zerin to move, the physical element that composed the mountain obeyed the faith of Mahonri and honored Jehovah, and it moved. Ether 12:30 I don't know how much physical creation that Jehovah actually performed to create our Earth. It's possible that Jehovah made the 'big bang'. Or that Jehovah was given jurisdiction over a star that went supernova and we are the result of the re-organization of that matter. We don't know. Jehovah carved the 10 commandments with his finger, Exodus 31:18. And He touched the stones that Mahonri presented to him imbuing the stones with the power to give forth light Ether 3:6. I still haven't ruled out the possibility that Jehovah possessed a body during our pre-mortal existence. But thats another topic altogether.

You move fast. One of the things about the LDS church that I absolutely love, is that we have a detailed and robust doctrine. It explains both the simple and complex concepts about the purpose of life, families, happiness, truth, and God. I had the benefit of growing up in the church (the missionaries knocked on our door when I was just 6 months old). Anyway I learned the basic doctrine during primary, eventually went on a mission and spent many sessions in the temple and reading the scriptures and the more profound doctrines of the church naturally came through curiosity study and prayer. Its kind of hard to enjoy a drink of water if it is coming from a fire hydrant, but some people have the capacity... In the scriptures there just isn't much direct information about God the Father. From our perspective he is unchanging. There are basically 4 times that he ever interacted directly with man and each of those accounts he basically said the same thing, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him." 1) Baptism of Christ - Matthew 3:17 2) Mount of Transfiguration - Matthew 17:5 3) Visitation of the Nephites - 3 Ne 11:7 4) First Vision - JSH 1:17 On the other hand we do have an excellent record of Jehovah / Jesus Christ, and in that record it is easy to recognize that Christ did progress. In a recent interview in KINGDOM COME - A Time magazine feature story on the Mormons Gordon B. Hinkley, the then President of the Church (Prophet) stated: Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet. A: Yeah Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it. If you want to go to the source of the doctrine you can read the King Follett discourse. I hope to think that I understand a portion of what Joseph Smith was describing during that famous discourse but it took me many years to come to that understanding. It is a beautiful doctrine but it is deep, and I personally believe that it is generally greatly misunderstood by a majority of the members of the church. And more importantly the knowledge of the origin of God is not necessary for our personal progression and exaltation. It is wise to stick to the basics. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Well said. One of my favorite documents is: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Father and the Son

I'll give it a go... D&C 131: 7-8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. This scripture is pretty kool. It states that there are 2 types of matter, spirit and physical. Maybe this dark energy that current scientist are trying to discover /elucidate is actually spirit matter. With righteousness, knowledge, and responsibility members of God's family will be given power and authority over these different types of matter. God has the ultimate power and can manipulate both spirit and physical matter to his will, and can create children both physically and spiritually. Those of our spirit brethern that lost their first estate will never have the opportunity to manipulate physical matter. Mortals can manipulate physical matter quite a bit. I can landscape my yard. Turn food into muscle, bone, or waste. And as a society we have split the atom. Telestial beings will have the ability to manipulate both spirit and physical matter but they cannot create children. We don't know what kinds of authority and power that they will have, but I believe that they will continue to progress and learn up to a point. Look at the known universe. There is alot of space and matter out there. Who is to say that the son's of God whom do not make the Celestial Kingdom will not be able to experiment with a corner of the universe. Terrestrial beings will have greater power and authority... what that is... I don't know. Those that become like God the Father may be able to produce their own Universe, who knows. I can't wait to learn how to make the Big Bang. :)

We have scriptural evidence from multiple sources that not only give eyewitness accounts of the baptism of Christ but also explain exactly what happened and why it happened. We have no evidence in scripture that either documents Christ's marriage or explains if it occurred, or if it was necessary. Obviously then, answer to your question is: No, the Savior did not set the example for us to get sealed on earth.

He already provided this information... These two points are just plain common sense. Neither points concern tradition nor law...

Just wanted to bring up an issue with the marriage in cana. It was a civil mariage. If you want to make an LDS argument that Jesus was married while he was a mortal on earth you would do better to try to convince that he was married while recieving the endowment during the mount of transfiguration. See Matthew 17: 1-9 The idea that he would be married outside of the temple without an endowment is akin to the painting of John the Baptist sprinkling water on Jesus Christ's head on the bank of the River Jordan. It's nonsense.

I'm gonna have to back up Volgadon here. Jesus Christ/Was Jesus married - FAIRMormon The above link is to a well documented discussion about what the current LDS stance is concerning the question, was Jesus Christ married? Short answer we don't know. Just because a person wants a hypothesis to be true doesn't make it so. There is no scriptural evidence that Christ was married during mortality. Volgadon has not been trying to convince anyone that Christ was not married. He is just stating that it is entirely possible that a Rabbi not be married. He's correct. Personally I don't think that Christ was married to Mary Magdalene, or to any other mortal woman during his mortal ministry. I don't think that Elohim was married to the Virgin Mary either.

Thanks for this post, quite enlightening. I must say that I like the unaltered versions of Joseph Smith's words as recorded by William Clayton and Willard Richards, better than Pratt's text. The Richards' record seems to give the impression that Joseph Smith was trying to convey two different ideas. One, that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (does not have a body). And Two, that the Holy Ghost's personage cannot reside within a person's heart. Makes sense to me. Excellent question. The Light of Christ (at least the portion of it that gives men the ability to sense right from wrong) seems to be a passive influence that all mortals receive regardless of their intent. The Power of the Holy Ghost on the other hand is a much more dynamic power. It would probably be better to compare the Power of the Holy Ghost to the Second Comforter instead of the Light of Christ. D&C 88:3 discusses the 'second' comforter, and it uses the same terms that Willard Richards used, "that it may abide in your hearts" Although the Holy Ghost does not currently have a body. We know that he eventually will receive a body like Christ did. Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items" Holy Ghost in Probationary State Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again. And although the Holy Ghost is now just a personage of spirit. It is possible that he did possess a body in the past...

I'll repost my answer from a previous thread. http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/19761-conception-jesus-christ.html Well, from a Medical point of view, strictly based on the technical definations: Fertilization - the union of sperm from the father and Ovum (egg) from the mother, combining the genetic material, if successful this creates a viable embryo Begotten, beget - To Father, Sire Conception - Implantation of the fertilized egg or embryo into the Uterine wall. Born, Birth - Delivery of the child from the mother's uterus to the outside world. Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. As I read this: 1) Mary delivered the child Jesus. 2) Mary was a virgin (no coitus). 3) Mary was a precious and chosen vessel (objectively, this suggests that Mary was a surrogate mother). 4) The Holy Ghost assisted in the conception of the embryo (the Holy Ghost delivered the embryo of Christ onto the wall of Mary's Uterus). 5) Christ is the Son of God. (Elohim or God the Father begat or sired Jesus). One final defination: Surrogate Mother - A woman who bears a child for another person, either through artificial insemination or by carrying until birth another woman's surgically implanted fertilized egg. I don't think that Christ's biologic mother was the Virgin Mary or any of the mortal woman that were contemporary of Mary. I want to believe that Christ's biologic mother was someone who was co-equal and intimate with God the Father. His eternal wife no less. This line of thought necessairly begets more questions...

Im not a math major or nothing but... Last time I checked. 1 x 1 = 1 You done multiplied. My wife is pregnant with numero nine.

Joseph Smith is the greatest prophet in this dispensation. Adam was the greatest prophet during his dispensation. I would love to see them arm wrestle. If I was a betting man I'd put my money on Adam...

No because it is sealed. But we have been told what is in the sealed 2/3 portion (2 NE 27:7-11). We know that the author of the sealed 2/3 portion was the brother of Jared - Mahonri Moriancumer (Ether 3, Ether 4:4, Ether 12:24). The above answer is a good solution to your above dilemma. It allows you to explain clearly that the Book of Mormon does contain the fullness of the Gospel. We just haven't been worthy enough to have the record revealed unto us. Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” Book of Mormon Introduction.

The original Book of Mormon, including the sealed 2/3 portion does contain the explicit fullness.

These questions make you wonder how humanity was ever able to arrive at our current position. Was it risky 200 or 2000 years ago when people did not practice contraception and doctors had a very limited understanding of the human body? I have 8 children and #9 is on the way. My wife is 39 y/o and I delivered the last 2 children at home because the local hospital refused to perform a vaginal delivery. She had had a C-section for our first child and most hospitals will not perform VBACs (Vaginal Birth After C-section) Wanna know what I used to deliver the last 2 children. 2 cable ties and a pocket knife. They are both healthy. Down syndrome is a possibility but If we had a Down child we would love it just the same as the rest...

The Earth was created after the council. Abraham 3 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

3 day weekend and a full tank of gas.