mikbone

Sure. We were all in the presence of the Father. We all assisted in the creation of the Physical Earth. Adam is the best and brightest among our family and he represents us.

Yeah, and I've studied this atonement paradox question at length since I ran into the brick wall back in 1988 in a southern Chilean town. The Holy Ghost is a God. He is obviously ahead of us in the path of progression. Adam was not a God. He passed through a mortal probation just like us. He had to partake of the ordinances and experienced sin and the benefit of the atonement.

Is that an assumption, or do you have a reference to support that statement? Intelligences are not created. (I'd submit the reference, but I'm stuck in a confrence atm, texting on my iPhone).

Ok, if your gonna twist my arm. Here is the real paradox in my opinion. 1) There is a path that has been tread by our fathers. 2) We are traveling on a path. 3) Are these paths the same? Ill try to illustrate the dilemma. First look as ourselves. I'll use lowercase letters to represent our estate. a) intelligence b) spirit birth, pre-existent state c) mortal life experiencing sin, and being able to take advantage of a saviors atonement Now look at the Gods estates, lets use capital letters for them. A) Holy Spirit - no corporeal body but still a God. Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items" B ) Mortal estate as a Savior (eschewing sin and performing an atonement)C) Exalted immortal Celestial God capable of producing spirit children. Most people think the progression goes like this. a -> b-> c -> C I submit that the exaltation of man more likely works like this. a -> b -> c -> A -> B -> C Comments?

I must be using the wrong lure. I thought my #4 post in this thread was a big juicy worm. Maybe I should be using a fly rod...

Didn't Jerry already argue that the Adamic language was a dense language. Such that it would take much more space to write it in Reformed Egyptian? Do you think that Joseph Smith peaked into the sealed potion of the plates? If he didn't, he didn't see the adamic language.

I feel a nibble

It would be left up to the Doctors that are willing to do the procedures. I fix bones in a Catholic Hospital. Catholics hospitals refuse to perform abortions. But all the time you can look on the operating room board and see D&C listed. D&C in the hospital is short for Dilation and Curettage not Doctrine and Covenants. What's a Dilation and Curettage? Well if the mother had a miscarriage and the fetus has not been ex-pulsed then it removes the non-vialble tissue. If the fetus is still alive, its an abortion.

I've had my baited hook in the water for some time now. I'm still waiting for that first nibble. Very nice evaision Hemi.

So, are we going to be able to follow the path that has been traveled by our Fathers? Or, are we on a seperate path?

I think everyone agrees with you tomk. Jehovah's atonement has jurisdiction over all the worlds that He (Jehovah) created physically. The area of debate is, are there worlds out there that were that were physically created by someone other than Jehovah? As far as we can see in all directions there is no end of space or matter. And we can look pretty dang far. And this does not take into effect the possibilities that there are multiple universes. There could be an infinite number of universes. Heck each atom itself could be a universe. Ever think about that?

LOL, nice mental exercise. 1) The chance of us coming to a scientific level where we could travel to another solar systems, prior to the second coming is in my opinion zero. 2) Jehovah is your Savior. Even if you were to pass through a worm hole and travel to the other side of the known universe and land in a habitable planet, you have no connection with those people. You agreed in our pre-existence that Jehovah would be your Savior. 3) A point of interest is that astronomers have evidence that there are Galaxies that are currently in collision. If a single God was steward of each Galaxy, would this cause havoc? Interestingly, these scientist also believe that although these Galaxies are passing through the same space, the likely hood that any stars would actually collide is almost zero, because they are mostly empty space. Go figure.

Elohim Created/creates Spiritually (he probably created physically some time in the past) Jehovah Created Physically (so far) Elohim is the Architech, and Jehovah is the Carpenter. Agreed? Now to dive into conjecture... We don't know how much Jehovah created physically. Could have been... All physical matter that is The entire known Universe Our Local Cluster of galaxies The Milky Way Galaxy An arm of the Milky Way Galaxy A local cluster of stars The Sun and its sattelites Elohim on the other hand created spiritually. Or he created the template from which Jehovah created physically. If an architech creates a plan, any number of carpenters can use that plan and created the same structure in a different location if they follow the plans correctly. I suspect that Elohim has other children like Jehovah that were begotten, and that they are now fulfilling a role that is similar to that which Jehovah is currently undertaking. If so, we never have had contact with them, and from our point of view. Jehovah is the only begotten son of the Father. If the above assumption is correct, and I'm not stating that it is correct. Then Jehovah's atonement does not cover all of Elohim's creations. It only covers all of Jehovah's physical creations. This would also explain why when Elohim does appear, that he basically makes the same statement. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Elohim is a VERY busy man.

That a boy! I'll come at it from a different point of view. HONOR What is Honor? Why does Elohim have it in spades? Does Jesus Christ have honor? Where did he get his honor? Lets return to the war in heaven. One of the most basic causes of the rift was the issue as to who was going to recieve the honor of saving the spirit children of Elohim. D&C 29: 36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; Moses 4: 1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. Satan's opinion on the topic is obvious. He knew that redeeming mankind would generate honor. He wanted the opportunity to become like God and partake of his honor without having to go through an atonement. Jehovah on the other hand had full understanding. Moses 4:2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Jehovah did what he did not for the honor but because he loved both us and his Father. The honor & glory that is naturally a by-product of an atonement he was willing to give to our Father without remorse. Can we make a list of things that were achieved by performing an atonement? Ill start. By products of the atonement: 1) The ability to grant a remission of sin and overcome the effects of the fall of Adam (too many scriptures to list) 2) The light of truth (D&C 88:6) 3) Honor & Glory

If his baptism was sealed by the holy spirit of promise, He's in paradise. D&C 132:7

More likely an infinite number of atonements. I concur.

This is a great area of debate and conjecture. Which I do enjoy. TomK - I gather that you are proposing that Jesus Christ is the only God that ever was able to complete an atonement and that since his atonement is eternal (outside of time) that by his act, all will be able to overcome sin. This includes Elohim, and any of Elohim's forefathers. And if we are eventually to become like God, our spirit children will also have to look to Jesus Christ for their salvation. Hemi - I've never though of your proposition before that each Savior is able to be the Savior for his Father (Elohim acted as the Savior for our Heavenly Grandfather). It seems backwards to me though. Hollar at me if I misunderstand you please. The basis for most of these debates takes root in the King Follett Discourse given by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 its a good read. -- King Follett Discourse -- There are 2 different propositions that usually are discussed: The first is that there is a line of Firstborn Savior Gods. In this theory, Elohim was also a Savior. And when Jesus Christ has his Firstborn Spirit child, that Son will have the capacity to become a Savior. This idea has merit, but it does bring about one concept that is unsavory in that those Firstborn Savior Gods are essentially superior to and unlike us. The second concept is that to become like God you have to do what HE did. Essentially that there is a pathway that takes a soul from one degree to another until they become like Father is. In this proposal we are currently in a state that preceedes the estate of Jesus Christ. Essentially that we will have to pass through a similar course of events even as the Savior did - if we wish to continue to become like GOD. This theory best describes Lorenzo Snow couplet btw. "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." This is the idea that I currently subscribe to, but it has its own complications that are quite obvious. Some believe that if this theory is correct that it would also dictate that Jehovah previously lived on planet (a different one than this Earth) upon which he sinned and passed through a mortal probationary state just like the one that you and I are currently experiencing... John 5:19 -- Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. My intrepretation of the above is that Jesus could only partake of the Atonement because he had witnessed Elohim partake of an Atonement. If so, this is significant! It not only means that Elohim was a Savior; but that while Elohim was a savior, Jehovah was sentient and experienced it. I doubt that you or I were aware of this event as Elohim had yet to create spiritually. I'll finish this post by quoting Willard Richards entry into the Joseph Smith Diary of the King Follett Discourse. "(I) refute the Idea that God was God from all eternity - Jesus said as the father had power in himself even so hath the son power to do what the father did. Lay down his body. & take it up again- you have got to learn how to make yourselves God, Kings, Priests, &c. - by going from a small to great capacity. Till they are able to dwell in everlasting burning & everlasting power."

You ever hear of Orin Porter Rockwell? As I recall he was a bit of a Hell Raiser. Might not of fit into your perfect idealization of a good Mormon boy. Yet he was still ordained as a Seventy. "He is an innocent and a noble boy. . . . and my soul loves him" - Joseph Smith. I can't think of much higher praise. Oh and by the way, I just had my eighth child, a son, and gave him the first and middle name of Porter Rockwell. We were not there the Sunday that the bishop announced the birth of our son, but I got report that there was a collective gasp from the congregation. "But what I worry about is that I've already been baptised. I've blown my shot at being sin free. I would give anything to be baptized again, to have that fresh start. I tried to go back to church when I was stationed in Idaho, but I couldn't bring myself to take the sacrament. I didn't feel worthy." I've been reading Wilford Woodruff's Journals. He wrote over 7000 pages in his journals and I've read some few hundred so far. Anyway, I just stopped counting the times that he was re-baptised. In the early church they used to do it all the time, for the re-remission of sins, for entering the salt lake valley, for healing... We stopped that tradition for a reason, the one time is sufficient. So you blew your shot at being sin free, join the club. Get to where you feel worthy and start taking the sacrament. Welcome back brother!

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man" Is kinda a must read on this subject

I think that Brother McConkie did an excellent job defining and differentiating both Knowldege and Intelligence Knowledge is basically the acquisition of information that is true Intelligence is the application of knowledge so as to progress in the things of the spirit. Thus: "The devil has tremendous power and influence because of his knowledge, but he is entirely devoid of the least glimmering of intelligence" Mormon Doctrine, Intelligence Ouch

Abraham 2:22-25 22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon; 23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise: 24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live. 25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee. Genesis 20:12 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

I have tried to imagine what Jesus Christ must have looked like when the cleaned the money changers out of the temple grounds. He probably didn't have to use the whip much... I've also tried to imagine what he would look like giggling. I think Id much rather see him giggling.

More than likely (the greater majority), of course the balance of the percentage would be converts.

I haven't read any formal doctrine on the subject of being able to choose our families in the pre-existence. But, my parents, wife and my patriarchal blessings all allude to the idea that we knew each other... Just based on the numbers though... Only 1.4% of the USA population is LDS. If the pre-mortal male spirits are destined to have the priesthood (as explained in the following quote) it makes sense that they would more than likely be sent to a LDS family. "Alma taught the great truth that every person who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood was foreordained to receive that high and holy order in the pre-existent councils of eternity. "This is the manner after which they were ordained," he says. They were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works [while yet living in pre-existence]; in the first place [that is, in pre-existence] being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceeding great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such." Thus, he explains, Melchizedek Priesthood holders have been "prepared from the foundation of the world" for their high callings. The Lord has prepared them "from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things." (Alma 13:3-9.)" Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 1, Foreordination, Bruce R. McConkie

I just picked up Waiting for World's End The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff Edited by Susan Staker First Edition published 1993 Im thru 91 of 425 pages in a couple days and have enjoyed it.