mikbone

Ronald Reagan is one of my favorite peacemakers. Reagan 2020 - Ronald Reagan - Address on National Security My favorite peacemaker in the scriptures - without question Captain Moroni Alma 44:10 !!!

I got a sarcastic streak in me sorry. Yes, I'm sure that they planned their coming out meeting to coincide with the General Conference Priesthood session. It just reinforces their disdain for the Church.

I wonder if this time and date were chosen specifically. I was going to RSVP then realized that I will be busy at my stake center... Rats, maybe I'll be able to catch the next event.

/facepalm perhaps she is hanging out with the wrong crowd?

I don't know if we were able to view important events on Earth while we were unembodied spirits in the pre-mortal existence. It is possible that the disembodied spirits in paradise were granted a viewing of the atonement, but we don't know for sure if this happened either. We do know that the spirits in paradise were visited by Jesus Christ during the 3 days that his body lay in the tomb though. So they did have a significant witness. The spirits in prison unfortunately were not able to see either the atonement or Christ's visit to the spirit world but they were able to receive second-hand information from the spirits in paradise after Jesus bridged the void between spirit prison and paradise. See D&C 138. The mortals that lived on Earth during Christ's Atonement were not able to witness the Atonement directly either. But there were miracles that were witnessed and Christ did visit the Nephites and other sheep as we have been informed... The original intent of this post was 2 fold. 1) Define what it means to witness the atonement. 2) Recognize that because Jehovah witnessed Elohim's atonement that Jehovah was inherently different than everyone else in our pre-mortal existence. Because it appears that you and I did not understand what was involved in the Plan of Salvation. We understood much of the Plan and we fought for our right to come to Earth and learn how to be more like God the Father. But Jehovah knew details about the Plan of Salvation that the rest of us were oblivious to. I believe that when Jehovah stepped forward and said, "Here am I, send me" that He was recognizant that He was volunteering to live a perfect life and suffer the Atonement. Jehovah understood in theory and from an observational or empathic viewpoint what was to be required of him. We did not understand the specifics at all. And we still don't understand. We will be able to gain a more in depth understanding of the Atonement with the ordinance of receiving ones Calling and Election. But unfortunately, there is only one way to have a perfect understand of what happened in Both Gethsemane and on the Cross. And as far as I know only Elohim and Jehovah have that perfect knowledge. See D&C 19: 15-20 wherein Christ repeats "ye know not" over and over.

Absolutely. Why would we be given any more meaningful revelation when we are reluctant to learn and study the material that has already been given us? I would love to have the record from the lost ten tribes...

You are correct. https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/18.2CannonKingFollett-8e1d9165-52f1-4e4a-9950-d55c4d2f701b.pdf The above document that I previously linked, describes the known historical background of the event. I feel that calling the Sermon the King Follett Discourse really does it a disservice. Many people think of the talk as an address during the interment of an fairly unknown person - King Follett. King Follett actually died almost a month prior to the sermon, on March 10, 1844. Instead the sermon was giving during Joseph's final General Conference. Joseph was to be martyred 3 months later. The audience was anywhere from 5,000 - 20,000 saints by reports. He spoke without notes for a period of 2 hours and 15 minutes. And there are 6 separate accounts that we have of the sermon. Joseph Fielding Smith's amalgamation found in The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith is the least accurate version. I originally fell in love with the sermon after reading The Words of Joseph Smith by Ehat & Cook. But now, with the advent of the internet we have the ability to go to the original source. Please see - April 7, 1844 Floating Titles Why any saint would not want to study and ponder the last conference address of Joseph Smith Jr. is beyond me. The following words are quoted directly from the Clayton Report version of the sermon From the above, I read that Joseph Smith wanted to reveal more unto the saints. But there were many saints and even church authorities who refused to listen to any doctrine that was not explicitly stated within the Bible. So he refrained from teaching more important doctrines. It is obvious from reading Joseph's history that he felt not only persecuted from without but also from within the church. When modern latter-day saints wish to disown the KFD it seems to me that Joseph Smith is speaking the above words to them directly...

Thank you for your response. You have addressed the question in the original post. It is refreshing to have a conversation dealing with the topic instead of derailing all the time. I agree with you and appreciate that you have taken the time to ponder the logical progression of the concepts that Joseph Smith Jr. presented. When I had read the April 7, 1844 sermon many years ago I was immediately struck with the imagery. If Jehovah witnessed Elohim's atonement then there are a few ways that He could have done so. 1) Jehovah's spirit pre-dates our spirits vastly. Perhaps Jehovah was a spirit while Elohim went through his mortal trial and Jehovah was able to witness this event in person. 2) Perhaps Jehovah did not witness the atonement of Elohim directly but some time after Jehovah was spiritually created He was able to somehow earn his Calling and Election while still as yet an unembodied spirit and during this event He was able to see a vision of Elohim's atonement, wherein He was able to understand the significance of the ordinance. 3) There are other possibilities... Some of which should not be written in a public forum. Either way, I don't believe that anyone else in our pre-mortal existence understood the gravity of the plan that Elohim presented and Jehovah volunteered to execute. Excepting for perhaps Lucifer, but I find his soul as an Enigma...

From my reading of Joseph Smiths April 7, 1844 general conference talk, Joseph seems to imply that Jehovah was able to witness an event that occurred long ago. Neither Joseph nor I implied that Elohim was once a sinful mortal man. The most common interpretation is that Elohim was once a savior just like Jesus Christ. Thus Elohim was once a mortal man, but not sinful...

I thought you were somewhat of a scholar. Are you going to back off and now agree that it was given during general conference?

The Atonement took place in the Garden and on the Cross. Many prophets have discussed this. But something important took place in the Garden. This is where Christ came to grips with the atonement. It is interesting that He asked his Father 3 times to 'take this cup from me' but after the Angel came to comfort him. He had the determination to take the bite in his mouth and plow on. I have read some of Blake Ostler's stuff. He is well educated. And no doubt a successful lawyer and author. But I don't ascribe to his atonement beliefs. I'll stick with Joseph Smith Jr.

Richard Ostling in his TIME Magazine, PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer interview, asked President Hinckley Question: God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? Answer: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it. Drawing Nearer to the Lord President Gordon B. Hinckley Nov 1997 Ensign conference issue “The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that’s to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church.”

You may want to check out https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/18.2CannonKingFollett-8e1d9165-52f1-4e4a-9950-d55c4d2f701b.pdf or https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

Nice article. It really gives you a warm fuzzy inside when you take the time to write something meaningful and then have the only response as - 'ark steadier'... I mean, how can you expect a Bishop to learn the names of all the members of the ward. The nerve.

Sorry you feel this way. I mean no offense. John 5:19 is a verse that Joseph Smith alludes to within his 1844 April 7 general conference address AKA - KFD. Wherein Joseph Smith states: To me this implies that Jehovah witnesses Elohim's atonement. And it made me think. Who really witnessed Jehovah's atonement? The Atonement in my mind took place in the garden of Gethsemane. Surely Elohim witnessed Jehovah's atonement. As well as the Angel who strengthened Him (Luke 22:43). Even Peter, James, and John were asleep at the wheel and missed the most important act of Human existence. So I asked myself if Jehovah served in a similar maner wherein he served as an Angel who strengthened Elohim during His atonement on Kolob... Then during sacrament meeting yesterday while singing 136 I know that my redeemer lives, I forcefully realized that I constantly witness the Atonement in my life. No doubt I will have a greater witness during final Judgement, but I did not need to be in the Garden of Gethsemane observing Jehovah in his suffering to wittness the atonement. Satan probably was present as well watching Christ's suffering, but he did not witness the Atonement.

Yes, there is much to be gained by doing what is right. Your honor and her chastity are priceless. Once you cross a line your honor and her chastity will never be the same. Realize what you have and defend it with all your might. The adversary wants you to fail. Do what you know is right and let her know that you are doing the right thing for the right reasons. She will respect and honor you for it. You have your whole married life to explore the joy of procreation. Before marriage, it is fornication, just dirty sex. It is a horrible substitute. Do not fall for one of satan's most popular tricks. The consequences of which can be devastating. You should also honor her mortal Father. Would you have asked either her mortal or Immortal Father what activity you could get away with? Sounds silly, no?

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Assuming that you understand the significance of the above scripture. Do you believe that you have personally witnessed the atonement?

This may be going a bit far. Even if a local bishop is uninspired or even corrupt, the President of the church and the Quorum of twelve are true messengers of God. Of this I have no doubt. Conference is next week, I look forward to the words of wisdom and insight that will be revealed. And of note, the authority of the priesthood is absolute. I believe that there are multiple apostates that are in my Melchizedek priesthood line of authority. I have no doubt that I still hold the Priesthood.

I'm sure that this happens alot. We have a huge church. Not every decision made in Zion has been well researched nor spiritual confirmation sought. If it was so, we would have been caught up into heaven by now like the city of Enoch... Remember how Joseph Smith was able to receive revelation about how it was ok to give Martin Harris the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi? Sometimes the Lord lets us struggle for our benefit. It does seem a shame that a 17 year old young man prospective Elder / Missionary has not not been interviewed by the Bishop. If I was bishop that would be my number one focus... And I count it a blessing that I have not been considered for a bishop calling. :) I have had many local leaders during my years in the church that turned out to be less than optimal. Excommunicated bishops, stake presidents, and an inactive - absent mission president. Did it matter? Not to me. My spiritual leader is neither my bishop nor my stake president. I pray to my spiritual leader and He has never let me down.

Are you suggesting that the spirit world is in Nebraska?

Alma 42: 13, 22, 25 Heck just read the whole chapter

I like the commentary about Moses, Enoch, and Elijah. Makes you wonder why we don't have a better record of those who were resurrected at the time of Christ's resurrection. I was hoping for some clarification of the John 3:3-5 passage. Been looking for that for awhile... Joseph Smith makes an allusion it in Sermons delivered at Ramus, Ill. on Sunday April 2, 1843 And here Sermon delivered at the General Conference of the Church in Nauvoo, Ill. on April 8, 1840

Les Miserables Rise of the Guardians

God dosent have to live outside of time. We only need to have one exalted personage solve the time travel problem and the Grandfather paradox. Here we are, so someone must have done it. Maybe it was Vort... P.S. I really like the Huggins Displacement Theory, but unfortunately it does not take into account the possibility of wormholes so it must of necessity be false.

We can stop the debate right here. The Egg came first! Proof: