Suzie

Well we have Pres. Monson and Elders: Eyring, Uchdorf, Nelson, Oaks , Packer, Hales (list continues...) who did not serve a mission.

It's interesting that you mentioned that because I heard something similar with regards to friendships but I think it could also be applied to marriages. They say if you want to discern a good friend, just imagine if you feel comfortable with the other person to be at your side in a battle/war, fighting along with you or would you be concerned that the person may get scared, run away or even join the enemy.

Hi Elgama. Sorry about what you are going through. I do not know the details but it sounds serious. Maybe Ellie is doing really well now but maybe there are other kids suffering the same way she did and their parents are unaware. I don't think it's nuts at all that you are pushing this and if the Stake authorities haven't spoke to you, you should probably make an appointment with them and meet them. If nothing happens, you should contact your area authority and so on, the Church does not like to hear about abuse cases at all, so I know they will move quickly once you get someone SERIOUS enough to deal with it.

Not sure if accidentally but in my view, I do think a lot of parents teach their kids to be "snooty" by their own examples. Sometimes in a lot of cases, you only have to speak with some of these parents to understand why the kids behave the way they do. Of course, it is not the case of all parents.

Sorry for hijacking your thread jpayne39. I already gave my little advise. I wish you all the best. Please keep us update when you talk to them. All the best. :)

I didn't know this was a competition. You made a generalization when you stated that "you can basically marry anyone and still have a successful marriage." Just because you sat as a judge in Israel and saw some examples which in your perspective was like that, does not mean it was. You need to be careful when you share your opinions as facts, they are just your opinions, just like everyone's here.

And how do you know that?

Yes, I AM a parent of several kids. The issue here is NOT child welfare unless the father dreamed that this guy is a serial killer. It isn't the case. The man dreamed his daughter will marry a guy named Mark....meaning a DIFFERENT guy from the one she is dating. This has nothing to do with child welfare.

But not the authority to tell his 24 years old daughter who she should marry...

I really feel for you AND your girlfriend. I know exactly what you're talking about. I did not want to say it but I really don't think her father had such a dream, the time he supposedly had it is the same time where girls start thinking about boys and a couple of years later ready to date. He is just a control freak and have controlled her possibly her whole life. I am pretty confident she fears him and now that you are in the picture, the whole scenario is probably going to get ugly. Be ready by fasting and praying before meeting him. If she lives on her own, good for her but if she still living by her parents, he will drive her NUTS! Please keep us posted about how the whole thing will turn out. If you end up marrying her, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE move miles away from this man. Seriously. You will regret it if you don't.

Keep in my mind I am giving this counsel because I have been in a similar situation. I don't regret one bit of my decision but wasn't easy AT ALL. It took me years to recover and some family members never forgave me for my decision even though the person I married was a gentle RM, kind and honest man. Your girlfriend will needs LOTS of support from you if she is willing to go ahead with the plans despite her father's wishes.

Face to face of course. BOTH of you. You're talking about somethings serious. You're 28, you really, really need to ensure you all are in the same page as you say because when the real pressure starts back with her father, there is where you will know for sure where she stands. All is nice when the pressure isn't there but when it comes you will know. Personally, I believe the conversation should be about INFORMING them about the relationship and plans for marriage, not about asking what they think or asking their permission because it's obvious they don't agree with it. So basically you guys will be just fair and square by letting them know your plans. Be ready for some pressure, specially the Bishop-Father taking over the conversation and trying to pulling it to his own agenda. I advise that if the conversation quickly turns sour, both of you should leave. Don't stay there and create or continue an argument. My two cents.

There are several red flags on this story: 1. Her willingness to dump you so easily the first time just because her father had a dream? And it's not like the dream was about you being a serial killer. What will happen when you two get married? Will she run to meet every wish and whim of her father? It's very concerning. Remember when you two get married, you will now become family. The rest, including her father will become relatives. 2. Personally, I think her father just does not want her to get married. I believe if the guy Mark comes around he will make a story saying it's not the Mark of his dreams or some sort of non-sense. If you're willing to marry this woman despite all this AND she is TRULY willing to stand by you and no one else no matter what AND you happen to live MILES AND MILES away from her father then sure, go for it. If not, run. It's trouble. You need a VERY LONG talk with your girlfriend.

I am very skinny and I never had weight issues. I used to think those LDS members who are extremely overweight were just that way because they wanted "after all they can change if they want to". Well, after watching several documentaries I changed my mind. MOST of them are actually dealing with personal issues, some of them even traumatic events (abuse, etc) and they use food as a medication, as a escape. Everyone deals with their problems in a different way but I don't think we should be so harsh in condemning people because you never know the root of the whole problem and unless you are in their shoes, you just don't know how you would react.

Well for all the posters who mentioned that Abraham lied when he said Sarah was his sister. Technically it wasn't a lie, she was indeed his half sister. (Genesis 20:12) Is it necessary to lie sometimes? I would say yes but in EXTREME situations. I don't think I could go as far as to say that sometimes it is "ok" to lie, I would say it may be necessary may be in situations where you have to protect your own life or others.

I hope I do not sound harsh because that's not the intention but as someone pointed out, the members are not there for the purpose of babysitting. Just like you and your wife are going through some challenges, I assure...I repeat I assure you there are other members in similar situations or WORST than yours who do not have anyone to turn to for help and they try to deal with it in the best of their abilities (I know because I am one of them). It's not time to be angry with the Church or to be depressed, it's time to get a grip, man up and do the best you can with the resources and time available. If extra helps comes along the way, wonderful! If it doesn't happen...life goes on. Please keep in mind members have their own families, their own challenges and some of them, quite unique and babysitting an infant so that the parents can go on a date is the least of their worries.

Wow, he abused his own child as well? My goodness, my heart goes out to you. I am so happy that you and your little ones are now safe. I think you have EVERY POSSIBLE RIGHT to ensure that he is held accountable for his actions so he does not hurt anyone anymore.

I think often times we confuse humility with false humility. Often times I observe people describing others as humble just because they seem submissive or they are shy and talk softly. These are not necessarily descriptions of humility in my opinion. For me, a person who is truly humble does not acknowledge his/her own humility, he/she is teachable, does not get offended quickly and does not need to "win" an argument or disagreement just for the sake of thinking he/she is right but instead, knows how and when to pick up his battles and leave. A person who is truly humble, forgets about themselves while they are serving others. They really do not care how they are seen or perceived because they have reach a spiritual stage in their lives where what men think or do makes no difference to them and they continue pressing forward. The humble guy is that guy that you see in the back bench at Church, who hardly speaks at times, who many think he is either a new member or even less active. The one that spends his days and nights caring for the poor and the afflicted, the one that never, ever mentions what he does for others.

Mormon Culture has changed gradually during the years, could it be social pressure, modern parenthood, ...not sure. Now for me personally I never truly understood the big deal about Coke or similar soft drinks. Personally, I don't drink it but again, I don't drink much soft drinks. I rather water. I have seen members reject the whole idea of drinking Pepsi but they would eat half of an apple pie by themselves, 3 big slices of chocolate cake or a huge t-bone steak with mash potatoes and gravy and a whole pastry for dessert without second thoughts whatsoever. It's silly to me.

I think as members of the church we use that line way too often when we either are not interested in discussing certain topics, don't know the answer and we do not want to admit it or just want to brush it off. It teaches me more about early Prophets, it teaches me that sometimes prophets speak their opinion (despite many people disagreeing), it teaches me that there were many church members who were hurt, who did not have the opportunity to access the same blessings you and I enjoy today, it teaches me that just because someone may be a leader or a GA does not mean they are free of prejudice, it teaches me more about the nature of man and more about the mercies of God. They don't hurt me (maybe I "sound" that way) but I am not. I am just being straightforward about certain issues that I think needed/need address. We all have different needs I suppose. I know some friends who do not want to discuss plural marriage at all (as an example) because according to them they do not want to learn about it because it will challenge their testimonies, they rather live in ignorance and continue with their lives, others choose to read the basics and they are just happy with that. Well, I am in the group where I want to learn ALL these things because they ARE part of our Church history and if I deny it or do not want to learn about it or pretend it never existed, means that I actually joined another church. Some folks are fine with that, well I am just not. Thanks for your input. Time for me to move on to another thread.

I'll send you a PM so I don't go more offtopic.

What makes you think I am Susan Howe?

I agree Emma denied it publicly but personally I am not sure if she truly believed in the principle. As a matter of fact she approved some of these marriages to right after change her mind. There is no doubt that she was not sure.

Why she would then teach her own kids that Joseph never taught and practiced Plural Marriage?

Utahgua, they seem to be signs for me of psychological stress/issues. She needs to see a psychologist and if I was you, I would not allow her to take the kids. She seems very unpredictable.