Latter Days Guy

Fit in with my personal wishes? What personal wishes are those? What has polygamy and keeping blacks from the priesthood got to do with tithing?

No the church tells us to tithe on our interest and as I have shown interest at the time of the writing of the passage of D&C 119 meant surplus/overplus.

No, I'm quoting a statement from the first presidency which states no one can make any other statement than the one that they have made: For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly. What I have done is look at the passage in D&C 119, looked up the definition of what the meaning of the word interest was at the time the passage was written so I could understand the context of the language used, took that knowledge and then went to the Lord for confirmation of what tithes I should pay. As the statement above says: We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

No it shows what people of that particular time believed a particular words meaning was. Yes the church clarified that we are to pay tithes on our increase which is understood to mean income. Back in the day they paid tithes in kind, at the end of each year they had their tithing settlement and paid their tithes from their interest, why because how could you know what your interest was unless you had already met your outgoings first? what is the increase of our income? It is that which is left over after our outgoings, our surplus.

By going to a relevant source from that particular time which then gave the commonly held definition of that particular word.

So who is right then? The First Presidency who said no one is justified in making any other statement, or the one saying otherwise?

No you said you had $100 of which you spent $10 on a spade, hence the $90 remaining. I have already said that I believe that everything including our income comes from the Lord. I also believe that what the Lord provides he does so to sustain us and our families and that he wouldn't place a burden upon us that we could not bear.

You said you take the $90 and lent it to a friend, so obviously as its the full $90 you haven't paid tithes on it. Then your friend pays you back the $90 plus $10 dollars and that $10 becomes the interest which you then say you pay $1 tithes on because that $90 is not a gain anymore. Only $10 is.

Which was quoting Doctrine and Covenants 119 maybe?

If your wondering about overplus then this is what Websters says about that: O'VERPLUS, n. [over and L. plus, more.] Surplus; that which remains after a supply, or beyond a quantity proposed. Take what is wanted and return the overplus. It would look like a fable to report that this gentleman gives away all which is the overplus of a great fortune.

This is the full text from the 1828 Websters dictonary about interest: IN'TEREST, v.t. [L. inter and esse.] 1. To concern; to affect; to excite emotion or passion, usually in favor,but sometimes against a person or thing. A narration of suffering interests us in favor of the sufferer. We are interested in the story or in the fate of the sufferer. We are interested to know the result, issue or event of an enterprise. It is followed by in or for. We are interested in the narration,but for the sufferer. 2. To give a share in. Christ, by his atonement, has interested believers in the blessings of the covenant of grace. 3. To have a share. We are not all interested in the public funds, but we are all interested in the happiness of a free government. 4. To engage; as, to interest one in our favor. To interest one's self, is to take a share or concern in. Clearly the above is not relevant to the issue of tithing. IN'TEREST, n. Concern; advantage; good; as private interest; public interest. Divisions hinder the common interest and public good. 1. Influence over others. They had now lost their interest at court. He knew his interest sufficient to procure the office. 2. Share; portion; part; participation in value. He has parted with his interest in the stocks. He has an interest in a manufactory of cotton goods. 3. Regard to private profit. 'Tis interest calls off all her sneaking train. 4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest. Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury. Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only. Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest. The above is about commerce and the charging of a levy on money loaned, so again has no releavance to tithes. 5. Any surplus advantage. With all speed, you shall have your desire with interest. So the only relevant piece of the text is the one above which talks about surplus advantage, so what is surplus advantage? Again Websters comes to our aid: SUR'PLUS, n. [L. id.,more.] 1. Overplus; that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted. In the United States, the surplus of wheat and rye not required for consumption or exportation, is distilled. 2. In law, the residuum of an estate, after the debts and legacies are paid. So we can see at the time that the law of tithing was given, the people understood the use of the word interest to mean that which remains, is in excess of what is needed, the remains after the debts and legacies are paid.

And as I have posted, at the time that that particular passage was written the people understood that interest meant that which was left over after meeting your basic needs.

So you advice is to become a banker and pay even less in tithes?

And that is as clear as mud as well, firstly he goes on about tithing on the interest of a loan and not the actual loan money, then about tithing on the dividend of money invested but then not the actual money invested. Then he contradicts himself and says that 10% of the salary is to be tithed on but then says 10% of the interest of the salary should be tithed on! And what about legitimate expenses, is he saying that those are paid before the tithe or after the tithe? Like I've said all along: For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

I'm not advocating any system at all other than what the Church teaches. That you pay 10% on your interest as a tithe. That how you come to that decision is between you and the Lord as stated by the Church.

No I don't blame the Lord for any situation.

The post pixies are out again! I just liked a post from Pam and it disappeared!! EDIT And its back!!

Why is it I get the feeling your talking about me? When I hear or read that statement then I take it at face value, that it's something that when it all boils down to the nitty gritty, it's between you and the Lord. Yes we can discuss something and have opinions on it but at the end of the day you have to take it to the Lord and see what he says on what ever that is!

How I pay my tithe is between the Lord and me, I have prayed and received my confirmation on what I need to pay. I have not told anyone how or how much they need to pay as that is between them and the Lord as well.

No, I'm saying the essential needs of the family come first, and that what is left is our interest which tithing is paid on. I'm saying that I studied what the scriptures say, what the church has said and then enquired of the Lord. As the church has said: For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

But then I find it hard to think that the Lord would put us in a situation where it would be necessary to choose between paying tithes or providing for your family.

How far away is the chapel from your house? Could you walk or cycle? In the log run it's better to be up front and honest with your parents, sit them down and explain to them what you said in your opening post. Hope everything goes well for you!

But then the rocks aren't yours to do with as you please. what an absurd comparsion to tithing. D&C 119 says: And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. What did interest mean when this passage was written? Webster 1828 dictionary states several meanings but only one fits: 5. Any surplus advantage What does it say about surplus: 1. Over plus; that which remains when use is satisfied; excess beyond what is prescribed or wanted. In the United States, the surplus of wheat and rye not required for consumption or exportation, is distilled. 2. In law, the residuum of an estate, after the debts and legacies are paid. What does it say about over plus: Surplus; that which remains after a supply, or beyond a quantity proposed. Take what is wanted and return the overplus It would look like a fable to report that this gentleman gives away all which is the overplus of a great fortune. So clearly we can see that at the time of the Prophet Joseph, the meaning of the word interest meant that which was remaining after all other needs were met, the surplus. Do you really think that Heavenly Father wants us to be unable to feed, clothe, shelter our families? I believe that all comes from Heavenly Father, including our wages which he provides to meet our needs and the needs of our families, and that from our interest or surplus we pay a tithe to help with the needs of the Church.

If you have no increase then you pay no tithes. How can you tithe on nothing?

Personally I would do as instructed by the church and decided what I need to pay in tithes and take it to Heavenly Father for confirmation.