C_T_R

Your question, and other's posing the same question to me wasn't annoying to me, I just couldn't figure out where I'd gone wrong. Being told my intentions is quite another thing. I'm glad you drew that to my attention.However, it seemed to be a small misstep in the context of what we're discussing here as "free agency" is a term used interchangeably according to that quote from the Ensign. My saying that exact phrase was used in the scriptures was incorrect, and I was happy to change it. But the same meanings, with the same words used in different places, are in the scriptures. In the Gospel context, the gift of agency is one of the fundamental reasons the Father chose Jesus to execute his plan. Satan sought (and seeks) to destroy the agency (free will) of man. How does Satan do this? By limiting us with addictions in all their forms, with excesses and with extremes. We give up our free will when we become physically or psychologically dependent on drugs or alcohol."The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. . . . God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not" (Teachings, 187; emphasis added). Look at the verbs here. God would not.. and the devil could not.. One by-product of obeying the Commandments is our free will. God has His power because of how He chooses to exercise His will both to do things, and to not do things. He would cease to be God if He gave that up. Satan can not control people as he wants to.. and in a real sense I believe through his choices, he's given that gift away.. D&C 121: 34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. 38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God. 39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. 40 Hence many are called, but afew are chosen. The gift of free will is given to us, all of us, but as this scripture states when we seek to do things contrary to the commandments, we give it up. I truly believe God has these "rules" in place for our happiness, for our freedom and liberty of mind, of body, of spirit. I think these are really powerful questions.. really intelligent and insightful in looking at our will. I'm not the most eloquent writer or speaker, but here's an analogy: You see on like weight watchers commercials or Jenny Craig commercials or anything of the like people who've lost weight and say, "I can eat anything I want." That's true. They can eat anything they want. But what is it that they want? To be healthy (and probably thin). So even though they can eat anything they want, they factor in what they want when maybe the temptation comes along to dive into a white chocolate raspberry truffle cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory and not look back. ... *ahem* As I've stated, I think by following the commandments is when we really have free will, and clarity and wisdom to exercise that will in a way to keep us free. Does that mean you can't go out and break every single one of those commandments? No! You can! I can do anything I want.. but what is it that I want? I want to be free, to be close to God, to do what He's said to because I know from experience (thanks to free will) which side of the line I feel free on.. real freedom; real happiness; and a sense of peace and confidence in myself. Satan's philosophies lead to bondage. That isn't God punishing anyone, this is how it works. He won't force us to come back home to Him. But he wants that for us out of pure unselfishness. These are my thoughts.. if I haven't quite got what you were after, I'd love to look at this concept with you.

I said it offhandedly. It was not intended to deceive, or be evasive in the slightest, and that's the truth. Once I realized what was going on, I fixed it. ... Don't worry. Your comment didn't offend me. It reflects more on you than anything. A bigger issue for you than it is? I love how everyone is telling me my intentions and thoughts. Sounds sooo familiar.Anyway, Dravin, don't worry about it. I really couldn't care less whether you think I'm credible or not.. I just thought it was a bit absurd but you are *free* to exercise your *agency.* Ba da bum tch

Really, you don't need to. I am saying that through the plan of Salvation everyone was given agency without any work on their part. That is *all* I was saying. If you'd like to go into a discussion of the choice, and it is a choice, then rest up and start a new thread or come back here and tell me. But THAT is a different topic altogether. :)

I was honestly confused why I was asked 3 times in a row where it says that. I didn't realize I had said it says in the scriptures the term, "free agency." Once I saw my post again, I edited it directly, and apologized for my mistake. But I did not attempt to buffalo my way past it! I'm glad we can all agree that it's the same thing. I'm glad we can all now see what the issue was, which was my mistake. My credibility on the line? Wow. Just wow. That's ridiculous. I'll make a point of watching myself *even* closer. Thanks for the advice, but really my words are credible. I made 1 mistake about where that term is used, and a small one at that! It is! lol I can't believe it's such an issue to you all. Please again, refer to all my posts here. They're the same meaning. As Elder Christoffersen said, it isn't incorrect. It's been taught to me in church many times, and I thought it was in the works. When I realized my mistake, I changed it. The end.

1) "Agency" is used in the scriptures by itself as I have cited. 2) There is no obligation associated with moral agency. THAT is the whole point of the Plan of Salvation. That man can learn for himself between good and evil. That is why the Savior died on the cross; why we didn't go with Satan's plan; and why God's love for his children is so astounding. The option of free will, agency, to act for ourselves, was given to us without price to us by our Savior in this glorious plan. I understand how you see it. This is how I see it.

I'm not upset. Truly. I got asked by 3 different people at once, and was explaining myself. No need to coddle me. I still stand by my sentiments that it's bizarre how you'd get hung up on that term, which has been widely used in the Church in years past. *shrug*

Oh, yes, yes it is. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross and gave unto man their agency, freely. Or is this an issue of semantics again? Please refer to the quote I just posted.

I edited my post! I misspoke! Any member of the church would understand how that could have happened when the term "Free Agency" is used time, and time, and time again. I will WATCH what I say MUCH more closely in the future! Never had this happen before, CAN'T really believe it is SUCH an issue. But glad to know people are that concerned with semantics rather than the fact that these terms are all the same in this context.

Really? You're hung up on the 'free' part? They're saying the same thing. :) If you've ever attended any meetings, or classes run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints they will, without fail, use the term "free agency." It's one and the same. Again refer to the talk I cited, Free to Choose by Neal Maxwell. It's interchanged.

Moses 7: 32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency; Moses 4: 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; 4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. D&C 101: 78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. Also, to better define it, under the Topical Guide: Agency "Free agency" is in study guides, and is taught in doctrine in church, and all the seminary and institute classes I've attended. Another issue of semantics, I believe. If you see a difference between free agency and agency, let me know. They're saying the same things in this context.

Mm, not confusing it here. It's basically an issue of semantics. EDIT: "Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures. In every class I've ever attended whether it be church or institute, they've used the term, "Free Agency." Regardless, we are free agents.. to use free will to decide between good and evil, and the scripture I quoted in my post before this one says men could not act for himself save he were enticed by one or the other. So it fits with your description of an agent I suppose.

No, God does not create evil. He would cease to be God. He allows evil things to happen because of our choices, and also for our clinical experience. He also gives people some pretty intensely painful trials that some could call "evil" when it's anything but. The difference between God's chastening and Evil is that God does it ONLY for our good if we bear it. Evil? There's no point. It isn't a means to an end, it's just an end. Needless. Empty. Suffering without any cause to progress. When he says "shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" I believe it's saying either that God is chastening His people, or allowed evil to come upon them, or the people in the city have chosen evil, and because of free agency, the Lord made that possible. I would also add that both the Old and New testament is something we believe, "as far as it is translated correctly." We embrace the King James' version, but I don't know that it's infallable due to the many hands it passed through to get to our day. I think reading our other works gives one a clear and accurate depiction of who God is, and what His character is like. He is consistent. When you get a clear view of who He is, reading the Bible can be a different experience.

I misspoke earlier.. I had a different understanding of the definition of duress. So free will is always there. Let me reiterate that free will is not YOUR will. "Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Nephi 2:16). In essence the gift we have through the great Plan of Salvation is the freedom to choose to give our wills over to good or to evil, whereas Lucifer's plan was that there would be NO freedom to choose, and all would be saved by force.. which makes no sense at all but I won't get started on that. The scriptures remind us there is, "an opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11). Our circumstances reflect our choices in this life, in the life before this, the choices of our forefathers and how those choices can literally be written into DNA; they also reflect a loving, tutoring Father in Heaven who knows what we can handle and knows what we need to learn. *I* would like to be able to go get an education at University, have a wonderful husband and 2.3 children, or at the very least have the energy to go to the gym a few times a week (and actually be able to BE in the gym). But that isn't what free agency is about. I have circumstances I would never choose. We all do. Several people in my life over the years have said to me, after related some of my trials to them, that I am "in prison," which is true. Duress has definitely been a part of my life, and a significant one at that. But I've had free agency to choose whether to be bitter about it; whether to be engulfed in sorrow, or self-pity to the point of paralysis in my progress; or to say, "Okay, Lord, help me learn what it is you'd have me learn." I'm not sitting here saying I've been perfect. But that's what free agency is. The freedom to choose to *give* our agency over to Satan, the deceiver, and the father of NEEDLESS pain and suffering, or to *give* our agency over to God, who in turn BLESSES us with freedom of Spirit even in prison, even in a painful body, even in our firey furnaces. A.S, Byatt wrote, "No mere human can stand in a fire and not be consumed." I believe that. We're changed IF we choose that.. into something greater than a mere human, who can stand in fire and NOT be consumed. I was told once that exaltation is not something we receive, like a gift handed to us, but something we become. Kind of like saying if we showed up on the other side of the veil obese, and God snapped his fingers and turned us into supermodels. That's a crass analogy, but it gets the point across. Exaltation is what we become. It's a choice. Line upon line, precept upon precept. And I gotta say, it's something we can ENJOY in this life, even before it's over. That in a very real sense we can live in higher dimensions of understanding and seeing everything around us. After I've explained what I believe free agency is, I'm not sure you'd still be asking this question. Every choice we make is enticed by either good or evil and it's our choice which side to give it to. The Lord's long-suffering allows for all to make the wrong choices. However, as I quoted earlier, the most important form of continuing education is the education of our desires. The Lord will offer you chances to learn, opportunities to grow, and you're free to choose them or not. But it doesn't change the fact that if you're choosing to give your agency over to the evil one, you're not only causing (needless) harm and suffering to yourself, and all those whom you associate. People don't see things as choices a lot of the time unless they're pleasing to them. But the choice is there. The choice is there, whether they recognize it or not. And they DO make choices, whether they recognize it or not. This is the clinical experience of mortality. So no, I would not agree with that thought. All possible options? It would be nice if I could know what all my possible options are with the limitations I have. What I truly can do and what I truly can't do. But that isn't how it works at all. I'm free to figure this out to the best of my knowledge, to rely on God and ask Him for guidance, and choose to see every blessing and mercy He's extended to me. No, God expects us to work; to look for our options; and to decide who we want to be even with all our physical limitations and our finite mind frames in this realm. It's on US to choose exaltation or not. It's on US to choose to progress or not. Truly it's on US, because of the atonement, to choose whether our souls are saved or not. Our desires and choices REALLY will be honored! I see why Neal Maxwell said, "I'm not sure we really grasp that." The responsibility of free agency is intense: the implications could not be more important.. and that's why people need to become aware.

Free will exists, period. Circumstances can limit our choices, but there is always a choice, barring duress. Absolutely untrue. "That every man may act in doctrine . . . according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment" (D&C 101:78; emphasis added). We are free to choose even if we are ignorant of what it is we are choosing. Whether you'll be held accountable for that at the last day is between yourself and God. He is no fool, and there's no manipulating Him. Also, "Whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free" (Helaman 14:30; emphasis added). That is pure truth. Whether we choose ignorantly or not, iniquity is something the perpetrator deals with in THIS life, whether consciously or unconsciously. I've seen it.. I've witnessed it. I've watched people again and again make choices that they lose themselves to. It's amazing, and it never fails. I have many challenges that hold me back from choosing what I would choose to be in this life. I would choose very differently if I had the choice before me. However I DO have the choice how to handle it. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference. No way. Free will doesn't mean YOUR will. It means you're free to choose between good and evil. It doesn't mean we get to choose what our lives get to be like or how others treat us; what our trials will be (sometimes) and also what the consequences of our choices are (which can become life-long trials).

Adversity is a blessing. I've heard before that the worst trial is "the trial of no trials." Sounds pretty good to me. But it's through our suffering that we are brought closer to the Lord and learn to rely on Him. Some of the most painful times in my life have been some of the most sweet and tender and revealing moments and I'm grateful for that. "..for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor 12:9-10) A favorite talk on faith is Claim the Exceeding Great and Precious Promises by Spencer J. Condie I'm not exactly sure what you were asking for here.. but I'd love to discuss it further if you'd like.

Hey Yana, I hear what you're saying and quite honestly agree with you that people should probably be older when they get married. I've seen many young women get married because that's the thing to do and I think that's not a reason at all to get married. They are too young usually. I'm not sure if it has to do with age per se, as much as just finding out who you are so that then you can choose wisely an eternal companion. The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not say you should get married young. I feel that that pressure IS antiquated and is also due to a cultural aspect that is unfortunate. I think it's in place due to the Law of Chastity, and because perhaps they think if you don't get married in college, you won't get married. It is a good place to meet single people! For some people it's okay to get married in their early 20s.. Hopefully the women continue their education if they meet at BYU. The family is definitely viewed differently than society says.. and there isn't shame for women to give up careers to be a mother which is the highest calling you can receive.. but then some aren't able to view it that way. I agree that women that have chosen that life should have a fall-back plan, though, in case something does happen to their husbands. Anyway, my advice to you is don't worry about getting married. It isn't a Gospel-based pressure at all. The last statistics I heard were that 1/3 of the church members are single which is more than it's ever been. I also heard that as a whole in the U.S. if you're now married you're in the minority. I'm not trying to down marriage, I'm just saying wait until you're ready and know what you want.. and if that's when you're 30, then that's okay! And if that's when you're 50 that's okay too! And if it's not in this life at all, that's okay too! Pray about it. No matter what religion you join yourself with (or don't) your Heavenly Father is right there and wants to have a personal relationship with you.

It's not your problem. It's the member's problem and it's between him and God. Really I am just amazed at how much time people spend on trying to "fix" other people's problems when they, themselves, should just be focused on their own problems. If you feel so compelled go tell the bishop and then drop it. But really it's just none of your business in my opinion.

People's beliefs about how God judges and balances justice and mercy are not lies. That is their belief. Free will is given to all men.. that doesn't mean we have perfect circumstances to exercise it in.I'm not sure who would think that things literally forced under duress would be choices at all, let alone choices of free will for the victim? But whoever is thinking that should know that God is the only one who knows the entirety of a situation and will exercise perfect justice and mercy. We're commanded not to bear false witness. Whether we do or not is between ourselves and God. If you have a problem with lying take it up with God and yourself and ask yourself why. How do you avoid the temptation of lies? Choose to live a life that you don't have to lie about. Be real with other people and with yourself, and cultivate a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. He is my best friend in every sense of the word. You become like those you associate with. Choose good friends and choose good examples in your life in your entertainment, music, etc. Focus on your issues you want to overcome and not on other people's issues you perceive need to be overcome. It's between them and God.

I've attended mass before and just stayed seated. It wasn't a problem. I've also attended Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve and _loved_ it. :)

Really powerful book. I highly recommend it! :)

I wish you could laugh and thank posts! :) Love this story.

That's really cool, Brenda. I've been changing some of my music as well for the same reason. I just remembered this story: A General Authority, Gene R. Cook, was sitting on an airplane next to Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger. Cook did not recognize Jagger and Mick had to show Cook a magazine with a picture of himself in it to let him know who he was. After visiting for a few minutes, Cook asked Jagger what sort of impact he thinks his music has on the world's teens. Jagger replies, "Our music is calculated to drive the kids to sex." He quickly added, "It's up to them what they do. It's not my fault. I'm just making a lot of money." Jagger went on to say that he had had the missionary discussions taught to him while in England. He also said that there was no God and that people should be able to do whatever they wanted. Jagger then said loudly, so everyone could hear, that the Book of Mormon was a lie and that anyone who believed in it was a liar. Cook took out a Book of Mormon and placed it in Jagger's lap and said, "You say it is a lie. I must have missed that part. Show me." There was complete silence. Cook then bore his testimony and told Jagger that he was the liar and that if he didn't change his ways, he would be held accountable by the Lord. To listen to Cook talk about his plane ride with Mick Jagger during an address he gave at Ricks College in 1988. God blesses people with incredible talent. Whether they use it for good or evil is their choice.

See a therapist. Perhaps there are issues she has with you? " I try to talk to here but she either gets defensive or she pretends to listen but doesn't change." -- this reminds me of someone I know to a T! Moments like this remind me how glad I am to be single and financially independent so I can clean when I want to, and be a "slob" when I don't want to. Best of luck, tho.

... seriously?

How sad that this is still being said from the pulpit. It is wrong. Absolutely wrong. For the "lost," for the "crippled," or for members who have a million different reasons why that would not be good for them. God is the ONLY one whose feelings about whether a mission is right for someone or not matters.. and that is between the person and God alone. Few things get me fired up like does this statement. How else could he have worded it? Missions are wonderful experiences that create special opportunities for an individual and couples to grow. Whether you serve one as a young elder, later in your life with your spouse, or in the life to come, you have much to look forward to. Meanwhile, every one of you are missionaries by bearing the name of Jesus Christ. Saint Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words." I agree that this was an unfortunate example to give. I would have made a different choice. Does that mean you or I are not as faithful? NO. Unfair to hold it up as the standard? YES. For this couple, perhaps they prayed about it and found that for one reason or another they should stay where they were. But no, this is not an example of stronger faith, in my opinion, without the specifics. There would be nothing wrong with going. Without knowing the specifics I wonder if it was wrong of these parents NOT to go. *siiiighhh* Amen.