SpiritDragon

Yeah. This is unfortunate when we take the position of greater worthiness over personal decisions. Medical procedures can easily be right for one and wrong for another and there is no reason to get upset with each other over such things. Getting the vaccine is not essential to salvation and I don't think that getting it is going to lead to damnation either.

I think for many this is problematic. As others have mentioned it seems entirely possible that seeking to listen to the spirit and seeking to listen to a doctor can be at odds with each other, so who to listen to? I'd choose the spirit, but on such a heated topic that may be problematic in and of itself because people may convince themselves the answer they "want" is from the spirit whether that is for or against the treatment. While I have had heard of some doctors giving advice to certain people not to get vaccinated, I think others will be afraid to give such counsel even if they feel it is the correct course of action. I believe it was @Vort who mentioned how doctors generally carefully follow standard of practice guidelines set forth by governing health bodies, so for one they are discouraged from thinking for themselves outside of the decided upon approved treatments that aren't always the best options available. They also need to fear losing jobs over making perfectly reasonable assessments that go outside of what the governing organizations want to push. This article shows an example of a professional being "cancelled" for daring to speak out on the topic of informed consent and vaccines https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/06/censored-pro-vaccine-doctor-francis-christian-over-covid-19-vaccine-safety-concerns/. Informed consent should be a cornerstone of any doctor/patient treatment transaction and should not be controversial. But for reasons that seem to come down to greed (power, control, money) even a fundamental principle such as this comes under attack if it could possibly stop people from lining up and rolling up sleeves. It seems to be the same reason that other treatments have to be attacked as well, because otherwise the emergency use authorization of the vaccines would be pulled and money would be lost for vaccine manufacturers: https://www.biznews.com/thought-leaders/2021/05/12/mailbox-ivermectin?fbclid=IwAR1wMMcth7nZ2pZcc_V2NaLt4BFamAIcclnMPQs-51kMV_O95mmyZNbzyhM (just one example) So the problem comes down to not really feeling great about putting trust in the arm of flesh when so much of the medical-industrial complex and the bought off media continue to push narratives in one direction only while censoring and grasping for any reason to naysay anything that goes contrary to that narrative regardless of what evidence shows. And even there, an appeal to "science" is really convoluted as a stand alone argument because it still comes to a religious belief in what "science" is valid science and what is not. Take nutrition for instance, It seems clear to me that a close to fully whole food plant-based diet is closest to the word of wisdom and best for overall health and there are many experts who would agree with me with plenty of data to back it up. However, in religious fashion there are also many low-carb believers who also have what appears to be evidence on their side (I personally don't think it's great evidence, but many of them do) Both sides can get into big arguments over why the other's science is wrong and using cherry-picked data.

I understand your frustration. The funny thing about gas prices is it is all relative and it seems someone always has it better and someone always has it worse. I just came home from paying $1.40 per liter (basically 1/4 gallon, so $5.60ish per gallon) and that's because Costco has "nice" gas prices to beat the $1.50+ everywhere else in the city. Still, there are far worse prices in other parts of the country, so while I miss the days of sub-dollar-per-liter gas, I'm glad it's not worse. It's also frustrating because we drill and refine oil in the province, but still pay a premium.

Wishing you all the best. I'm sorry to hear you're going through a rough patch. I'd be happy to listen and act as a sounding board as well, but it sounds like you may have that covered.

Naturally, it's the Ministry of Truth and the thought police... A reasonable person voicing reasonable concerns about the only treatment we're supposed to know about and want is intolerable and must be censored.

Too often the yummiest dishes are this way and when following a recipe it just doesn't turn out quite right, there's something magical about the just knowing the right amounts in the moment based on ingredients on hand! Hopefully yours transfer well into recipes though! Maybe I'm just not good at getting things written down accurately or following other's directions.

The moderators should really look into this MG/NT sock puppet thing

@Vort I look forward to reading these posts in greater detail as I get time. I've only skimmed and may have missed some important notes and if so, disregard my desire to help as being redundant. I was noting your stomach pains after eating following not eating for around a week and was wondering if you are familiar with refeeding syndrome. I don't think you've experienced it, but it is a possibility to be familiar with. I personally never fast longer than 48 hours just to be safe since I can't be bothered to do a medically supervised fast. I'm sure most of the time a week or so is great. Anyhow, refeeding syndrome can be fatal and I'd hate for you to pass on prematurely. Some primary concerns are electrolyte imbalances and a cascade of inadequate nutrition to properly metabolize food wherein by introducing food while specific nutrients are low (but the need for them is high to deal with the incoming food) it creates a situation where eating actually creates a greater need for nutrients (a key one being vitamin B1/thiamine) and can begin a cascade of unwanted effects such as organ failure and even death. Please undertand I am not trying to dissuade you from long fasts, but just want you to be aware of some risks and possibly work with a trusted advisor/do your own research to take appropriate precautions.... you may not intend to get that close to the Lord from your fasting just yet. https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/refeeding-syndrome-dont-forget-thiamine-deficiency https://www.healthline.com/health/refeeding-syndrome

I had that same thought!

Way to go!

I'm glad you recovered from your heart attack. Sorry I dropped off the map. I have way less time to spare for checking into this group and I wasn't convinced I was doing anyone any good anyway. Now a year later, have you maintained the weight loss and near vegan diet?

Splitting hairs or not, I think questions like this help lead to deeper understanding of principles. Too often, I think, we as a church culture are too prone to accepting basic levels of understanding as all there is to know and discourage deeper study as reaching off into the fringes and not focusing on what is "essential/pertinent to salvation". While certainly too much time can be spent on studying pet topics, this to me, does not seem like one of those at all. How much more critical to the plan could it be than to try and understand the deeper implications and importance of resurrection. If I get any other thoughts on the matter, I'll run them past you.

@laronius These are indeed some fascinating thoughts. Thanks for sharing. Some musings to consider: Moses 1:11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. D&C 67:11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. 3 Nephi 28:15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God. Could it be something as simple as needing to be in an immortalized state to enter the presence of God for the judgment to take place? One could certainly speculate as to why it might have been that we could withstand the Father's presence in the premortal realm as spirit bodies, but could not following mortal life, but there would be very little to go on that's firmly rooted in doctrine I think at that point.

As for the green tea in supplements issue I have often wished that more clarification be given on that front, but I can see why leaving it to individual agency is also a fine idea. I can see the argument from both sides. On the one hand, it is an extract from a particular plant, but not the plant itself, and not being used in the hot drink form, for what that's worth. In this way, it might really be looked at more like taking vitamin C which is also a component of tea. Usually, EGCG is the main compound being referred to as green tea extract and it can be found in other foods such as apples - so does the fact that it was extracted from green tea make it wrong to ingest in and of itself when it's no longer part of the tea? On the flip side, I completely understand the desire to avoid it as well. Modern revelation has made it clear that coffee and tea are what is referred to specifically by hot drinks, so even if it's not being had in a hot drink form it's still coffee or tea, at least insofar as say having an iced tea or frozen coffee treat. If it's processed, at what point does it (or is there a point) where it would no longer be coffee or tea? Might just be best to avoid it altogether. This position can be strengthened by the idea that for years caffeine was viewed as the culprit, but that may have been a case of members looking to scientifically validate what the lord has said and have nothing to do with what we've been commanded. To my knowledge, we have no specific chemical in coffee or tea that has been validated as the reason to avoid it, so in not knowing what components are the issue, perhaps it's best to avoid anything and everything to do with it. While I can understand both sides, I personally opt to avoid supplements with green tea extract or EGCG knowing it was most likely sourced from green tea, but sometimes it can be a real pain because it's in so many things and has caused me to have to find new sources as it's been added to formulations I used to use and enjoy.

I just want to commend both of you for sharing disparate positions and in humility working with each-other's responses. @Traveler this could have easily been a time to dig in and double down on your position, but instead you recognized the possibility that you have been operating with misinformation. @Grunt you could have easily gone down the path of calling @Traveler derogatory names along while bolstering your position with authoritative sources, but instead you gently put forth a separate set of facts that you have based your decisions on and let Traveler do with the information what he will. Well-played both of you!

Thanks for your reply JJ. Here is one of the articles I found after first hearing about 2A sanctuaries: https://www.theorganicprepper.com/second-amendment-sanctuaries/ I'm guessing I don't fully grasp what is actually going on with the dual sovereignty issue. I also gather I'm not alone in that, though.

From Wikipedia: There is a major political party in the United States and many mainstream media outlets that would seek to manipulate citizens into believing that they are racist simply by virtue of having a certain skin color. It's pounded in at every chance that they are privileged and racist even without knowing it. Dialogue is discouraged as rather than discussing what actions (that they can control and change) are racist, they simply need to bow down and accept it is so. There is a political ideology that is aligned with rewriting history to make the founding of your nation, which has been a beacon to the world about the greatest freedoms ever, is based in classism and racism. Yet a basic understanding of history should disprove such nonsense. The USA was based on the very ideals of freedom and equality. The very people and documents that have done more to promote freedom and equality in this world than any other are being rebranded as intentionally oppressive and abusive. The school system has been hijacked to fill the heads of the educated (lead to believe they are smarter on account of expensive indoctrination) with this nonsense leaving those who have learned actual history to be labelled as the uneducated... All the while denying these very "racists and bigots" stood up for the American dream and pushed for the very causes of equality and liberty they are painted as opposing. I could go on, but I'm sure everyone already has their opinions made, perhaps even putting truth over facts (is that a gaslight in it's own right? If one is actually a Caucasian male peasant, but their "truth" is that they're an Asian Princess... do biological, genetic, and fiscal facts actually matter? Did they gaslight themselves, or was it the people who let them buy into the delusional alternate "reality" by not fact checking them?) That brings up a whole other can of worms - what's with these partisan fact checkers who don't check facts at all but express opinions as fact? Are both sides guilty? Sure, but no doubt one is more so as @Traveler has suggested.

As it seems that the desire to restrict constitutional rights grows stronger and deeper I found it refreshing to learn that there are counties and states that are establishing practices to defy federal gun restrictions deemed unconstitutional. As I'm not an expert on the US system of governance, I have some questions: My understanding is that the states having their own sovereignty are granted the ability to enforce or not enforce federal laws - which makes sense for them to be able to stand in defiance of federal laws at a state level. On the county level do they have a similar sovereign power to choose to not enforce federal laws, even if the rest of the state does? If the state itself passes laws that are unconstitutional do individual counties have grounds to defy state laws, or if they choose to do so are they pretty well going rogue and asking for trouble? Finally, what are your thoughts on establishing 2A sanctuary counties and states?

This is fascinating for the history lesson that goes with it. I watched five minutes in and I'm questioning what version of the hobbit they found as it's so inaccurate it's painful. I might actually prefer to listen to by newborn cry and miss out on sleep than watch the last five minutes... but at some point I know I will because I'm fascinated by the very existence of this unfortunate production

Still working my way through volume 1 and I do find it to be great reading. I look forward to getting to volume 2. I'm not surprised that you are finding all sorts of things that you didn't know though. As a life long member going on four decades of mortality and having served a mission and reading plenty of church history over the last several years, in particular, I'm still finding all kinds of new and interesting tidbits as well.

I very rarely check in any more as it mostly seems like a waste of time for me these days. I'm busy with young children and when I have gone to the effort to share thoughts they don't appear to be helpful to anyone, so I figure I might as well spend my time with my family instead of trying to share insights with people I don't really know and doubly so when what I share is not helpful anyway. I did try for a time a couple years ago to work with some fitness help as that's something I do, but I started to just feel like a nag and people stopped responding so I stepped away from that too. That's on top of the fact that too often I just felt all of the conversation was becoming toxic and participating wasn't uplifting. Perhaps, I need to check in and try to contribute more again?

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Sorry to hear that. Is it a temporary job loss, or the end as you know it? My jobs have also been closed down for the time being.

I should add to that - this also assumes we are tracking all cases of the flu, and that is surely not likely to be the case either.

I don't disagree with that premise at all. I think that could very well explain higher death rates in certain parts of the world compared to others. If you don't look for it, you won't find it and should logically end up with a higher rate of complications and deaths because only the worst cases are being tracked. The thing is that to bring these death rates into the range of the flu we'd need to concede to there being around 17X more cases out there than we're picking up. Sadly, we'll never know the true rates because we only ever have the imperfect monitoring systems in place that we have and whether there is more of the disease out there than reported (I'm confident of that, but not confident were 17-fold behind) or the disease is as lethal on a case by case basis as the charts show, the fact is that a lot of people are going to get very sick and many will die. The big questions that remain for me are will this disease mutate like a flu and get added to the list of ubiquitous diseases going about? The good news is that so far it's not really problematic for kids so even if it does continue to circulate once it has made it's rounds initially, it will have killed who it will kill and the rest *should* be immune or at least partially immune via recognition of a previous mutation. If for the foreseeable future kids get a non-serious illness which leaves them immune to a serious illness later in life than it's really best to have them get it young, but this presupposes that a later mutation isn't worse for kids. My other concern is to find out if it could be a virus that can go dormant like a herpes virus and resurface anytime immunity is compromised - that will not be a good scenario. Time will tell, we just don't have the info we need at this time, but the info we do have is compelling enough to warrant some concern and not simply dismiss this issue as over-hyped scare tactics.