The Folk Prophet

...everything and anything.

Why? Are there not fundamentals that are obvious? What if the church leadership came out tomorrow and proclaimed that we no longer worship Jesus Christ? Of course there are boxes we wouldn't and shouldn't step outside of based on prior knowledge and revelation. If someone has a legitimate testimony of Jesus Christ then that comes first. What @Vort said that I agree with is that it's not a useful question. It will not happen. It cannot happen. But if it did...stretching the impossible...then we should all, as a collective unit, walk away. Of course we should. Marriage, family, gender, etc., are eternal principles as foundational as is the reality that Jesus is the Christ who atoned for our sins. They are core principles that cannot be betrayed without betraying the gospel. Even the asking of the question shows a profound misunderstanding of what the gospel is. Everything is to that end. The very Atonement itself exists to that end. The gospel is, at its very most core, family. Which is, at its core, husband and wife. Moreover, it's like asking if the church came out tomorrow and proclaimed that stealing was no longer a sin. Or lying. Or cheating. Or jealousy. Or hate. Or pride. Or greed. Or sloth. Or etc., etc., etc. These things cannot be betrayed by the Church and the Church remain as Christ's.

I haven't seen it, so I can't say specifically...but...I do know that the lgbtq community co-opt everything as their own.

I cannot see how to reconcile my thinking beyond this as well. The difference being that I do believe. So I follow. However, I think there's an inherent implication in what the First Presidency message has urged that there are exceptions. And I believe President Nelson would be the first to recommend to someone who had underlying health reasons, spiritual promptings, or the like to not get vaccinated for Covid. What I worry about is how many seem to have neither of these things but are merely swayed strongly by the politics and conspiracies' of it all. I am one of those, actually (though not to the extent some are). But I do not believe such to be a good reason to disregard prophetic council. Therefore I am getting the vaccination, despite my strong reservations. I might add that I'd come to this conclusion before the latest First Presidency letter. Basically, to me, it is exactly this simple. You either follow, or you don't.

I have 2 brothers (well...one a brother-in-law) who teach/work at BYU. I also have several nephews and nieces attending there. By all reports, the place is a mess. Not as much of a mess as other colleges. But still.... Of course the whole world is a mess. So.... But as it stands, I would actively discourage people from attending BYU. Why? Because at least when you go into the wolves' den (other colleges) they aren't dressed in sheep's clothing. I hope things change at BYU. But I also despair for education in general.

Well my very favorite Disney animation movie is Moana. I love Tangled too. I love a lot of the Pixar stuff. I am definitely a fan of the Marvel stuff -- for the most part. I'm also a fan of some of the early "Disney Renaissance" stuff (Little Mermaid, and Beauty and the Beast in particular). I respect the Walt and Roy years stuff, of course. Most of the stuff I like from Disney back then is live action. Swiss Family Robinson. The Happiest Millionaire. (Edit: I should add that although my favorites (fandom) isn't early Disney, I am a fan of the concept of family-friendly, etc. And I am a fan of that stuff for my kids. So I admit it does play into my feeling of their betraying us.)

I am not a fan of the Disney of yesteryear.

Did you not read my entire post and the thread? I believe I made myself quite clear.

My inner conspiracy theorist is skeptical. But.... to clarify my point... the issue at judgement day is going to be, why didn't you follow the Prophet? A righteous, humbly person who dies of Covid has nothing to fear. It's a question, as it always is, of humility vs. pride. If a humble servant of God feels, in humility and good faith, they shouldn't get the vaccine and then die from not getting it.... do we really believe that God will callously disregard their humility, service, faith and righteous desires because of this one thing? Obviously, to me, the broader issue of humility and faith is what's at stake. I think a lot of those concerned with the vaccine need to take a close look at their hearts to that end. If they feel confident, doing so, that they are in good order in that regard and still feel right about not getting the vaccine, who are we to judge?

I'm just not sure there's anything at odds. I'm sure President Nelson himself would plainly state that if you have personal revelation to not get vaccinated that you should not. As has been pointed out by many...the statement was not, "Whether you've been vaccinated or not will now be a question added to the temple recommend interview." There is a distinct difference, but also a clear balance that needs to be had on things like this. The go to should be follow the prophet. The intent should be to do so. The unassailable willingness to do so should be there. But does anyone really believe the question of our worthiness on judgment day will be, "Why didn't you get the Covid vaccine?"

I have a hard time believing that President Nelson does anything as the prophet and President of the Church without petitioning the Lord for revelation. I'm not saying there aren't still good reasons to make the personal decision that a vaccine isn't for oneself. But to write off any official communiqué as "speaking as men" seems a bit spurious. And to assume President Nelson prayed whether he should get the vaccine, received confirmation he should, and then thought, "Well, that means the whole church should too!" without taking the matter of the church's best interest to the Lord as well..... I dunno. Seems like pretty iffy reasoning to me. At best one might be able to argue (in my opinion) that the answer he received from the Lord on the matter was something akin to "make your best personal judgement on behalf of the church". But the idea that he didn't take it to the Lord first for confirmation would seem really odd to me considering the way he's spoken about revelation and the importance of it in the past. And the idea that the Lord would say something akin to "It doesn't matter. Prescribe to My people whatever you think is best", while well within the realms of possibility, doesn't seem (to my thinking) to be likely. I'm not arguing that everyone should interpret what the letter says to mean that everyone must get the vaccine or they're not following the prophet. But I, personally, don't believe the "speaking as men" point of view holds a ton of merit.

Well I need to call you to repentance then. Obviously.

Yeah. My attitude has changed on that a bit, which is why I phrased it the way I did. I had written, "....then I'm going to attack them..." but I rethought it and changed it before posting because I'm so much less inclined to want to engage in argument nowadays. There's a time and place to fight. But as I said....Facebook sure ain't it.

This is not a question I need answered for myself. Why? Because I trust Heavenly Father. That doesn't mean I trust Him to do as I understand, believe, feel, or think. I trust HIM. I trust Him to be what He is -- good, right, fair, and just. Whether I understand the mortal experience and "why" it all went down the way it did when I paid my tithing but then lost my job or some such scenario is irrelevant. If my wife and children died after I was promised protection and then obeyed cannot and will not shake my faith because that's not what my faith is based on. I trust Him. If He takes my wife and children home to Him it was good, right, fair, and just, whether it feels so or not. That is a hard won view. And it may be severely tried if I actually do lose something such as a child someday. But it is my commitment nonetheless. And I trust someday, regardless of what may feel impossible to understand in this life, that we will understand.

I'm curious why you found it grating. I did not. I agree with it in substance too and sent it to one of my friends who's really upset about things. Side thought: as to the "most of it" idea...I disagree with the stake president and ward decisions that "We follow the prophet" = "Wear masks at church" idea, In that though I joked earlier about it just being an excuse, I actually believe that the letter specifically included the phrase "in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible" because it meant in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible.

So, FWIW, I was actually discussing this idea with my wife just earlier so I'll share my thoughts here. As with many things, speaking principles of truth is good. Of course timing and tact are important. But I was saying, referencing one facebook post that I quoted a line from earlier, that if someone posted on Facebook something akin to, "Here's a study on the vaccine safety and effectiveness and the dangers of not getting vaccinated. Combined with the letter from the First Presidency, I would recommend to any that are against getting vaccination that you study these things carefully, continue to pray and listen to the Spirit, but consider carefully.....etc...." I'm not sure very many people would feel attacked. When the post is, "I'm pleading with you with all my remaining patience to drop your pride and repent!......" Well, you get the idea. Along those lines, expressing the idea that we should trust that God leads the church and follow the prophet isn't an attack on anyone. Pointing out that we should be forgiving and loving of our fellow men isn't attacking anyone. But both of these things can be attacks if they're phrased from a position of condescension. Also....there is, I believe, (and this should be obvious to anyone who knows me) a time and a place to attack. If someone says the prophet is a lying conman just trying to milk us all out of our freedoms and steal our money then I'm not going to begrudge an attack on them. But I'll also say this. Facebook is the WRONG place to express any of these ideas. Does the person who posted said patronizing post to Facebook I mentioned above really think that anyone read that and accordingly decided to get the vaccine when they weren't planning on it before?

Excellent point. If one were to view our leaders cynically (as many do) then the moderately recent changes regarding things like the baptism of children of homosexual couples and the change to removing and then adding back in the Saturday night conference session and etc., etc.,... one can get thrown off track pretty easily. It can put people in a precarious position when they adamantly defend (particularly with smug rhetoric) something and then the leadership changes direction. I've been there. It's tough. That's partially why I think taking all of this with a bit of forgiveness as to other's opinions on it is in order. We have people claiming it was PR. I think (like has been suggested) that's dangerous and wrong. But..... you never know. Next week the leadership may put out a new letter stating that it was for PR. Who knows? I don't really believe that will happen, of course, but I would be surprised if they don't put out a clarifying communication that puts a great emphasis on prayer and listening to the Spirit on the matter. Either way...using a First Presidency letter as ammo for attacking one's fellow Saints is a very bad thing.

Speaking of living in fantasy land.

I think the above "much" (bolded) is hyperbole. Granted, I don't follow all of them. But the ones that hit the news amount to like.....2. And having followed them to see what the fuss is about...there's a lot of lying done in the news about them. So I'm not so sure I see it. But I stand to be corrected.

Haha. I'm not sure Ben Shapiro qualifies as "calm". But I agree he basically has reasonable approaches to most things.

Wait. Who, exactly, are we taking about that's had this break with reality on the "conservative" side? QAnon? Or, you know...Ben Shapiro?

Frankly, what concerns me the most is the astounding, condescending holier-than-thou comments I'm seeing from so many people that really ought to know better and be better at showing love, compassion, understanding, and empathy to their fellow Saints. And with the latest message from the First Presidency they've now added a distinct air of over-the-top smug "I told you so"-ism to their condescending holier-than-thou-ness. I know, and fully understand, that I've been accused of holier-than-thou attitudes. At times these criticisms are legitimate. Sure. But I don't think I've ever called my fellow Saints murderers because they had reservations about some medicine or another. I don't think I've ever phrased things in terms of "I'm begging you with all the love and patience I have left to let go of your pride" or the like. I guess my own reservations about the vaccine and my own disdain for masking has helped me find some balance here. We ought to follow the prophet. We also ought to show more love and understanding for those who think differently than us. It seems that, one way or another, we're all failing. Even as I write this I realize that my love, compassion, understanding, and empathy for those calling me a murderer for not having been vaccinated sooner is sorely lacking. We all have a long way to go to reach Zion. (Most of the rhetoric I've seen on this forum hasn't been that extreme, but sometimes does tend to touch on some of the problems I believe are occurring. So kudos....and shame on us too. )

@Just_A_Guy, incidentally... I read traveller's post with an implicit "even if masks don't work..." Maybe that's not what he meant. But that was my read.

I'm not sure why you seem to be assuming I'm in favor of bending over backwards for shrill irrationality. I think my point was the exact opposite of that.