paracaidista508

https://www.sltrib.com/news/crime/2016/07/31/salt-lake-tribune-sues-says-byu-police-should-have-to-release-records/ http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3956084&itype=CMSID

The bowtie police is an example of how in various ward we have made up rules or whatever you want to call it. I get it that you intended to teach your kid that church leaders are never to be questioned. I get that. That in combination with made up rules is what makes letter of the law issues relevant. Too often leadership within and without the church decide to make up their own rules knowing that since they are the boss this is the way it is....no one questions me. Later, the kids grow up to do the same thing. Thus policies are set forth so that leadership can make calls wish are consistent with church policy. When there is inconsistency in seemingly standard rules (and dress code should be standardized) then it tends to lead to confusion down the road.

No Im not evading...just missed it apparently. The honor code office apparently has been working hand in hand with BYU PD. I find it highly unlikely that BYU PD has not educated the honor code office about if, when and how they can get access to a police report for any reason. That said, the honor code office likely has a policy in place that tells employees when they may request a report from the BYU pd or any pd for that matter. If BYU does not have a policy in place (at that time) re report sharing etc...then they are severely mistaken. I started my police career over 25 yrs ago and report sharing under any circumstance except official is pretty much illegal. Any LE agency worth its salt would have a policy clearly drawing a line....maybe BYU didn't and that will be a problem for them. Randolph knew what he was doing was wrong and so did BYU PD/ Honor code office. Wilson was a one off so I'll clarify.... Under normal circumstances, a cop who is accused of wrongdoing in a fairly benign case esp not related to use of force, will not resign in the face of an investigation. Generally how that works is they committed a violation of sorts, if it is serious enough to merit termination, the accused will be called in to internal investigators and told that on such and such a day, we will submit the report to the chief. Typically a finding showing you did the thing you are accused of, the chief has in the past terminated employees for this. Their lawyer will then walk them out and tell them to resign so they don't have a termination and revocation of a certification on their record. this allows them to get employment elsewhere after the dust settles- generally. I have seen this at least 30-40 times and there is usually no connection to whether or not they are eligible to retire. As for you not seeing how the Wilson reasoning makes any difference??? Well apparently you value your own employment over the physical safety of your long time friends. Cops are different, we are willing to die for our friends and also dont want them to be killed or injured because of our actions. No cop expects you to understand that so I wont ask you to agree with Wilsons rationale.

On Edit BYU dos have access to Spillman database. The problem is two-fold: 1- Why did they access the sexual assault report? 2- Why did BYU PD make thousands of inquiries in the database. That is under investigation by the state.

Any LE Officer (Randolph included) knows that if you get a hold of a police report of an "in-progress" investigation....no matter how and then unofficially transfer it to someone else who likely has no legal authority to view it is in violation of the law. All cops know this. Especially when the suspect is your friend. Let the friend take it to the cops, not you. This is why he initially got charged with witness tampering. BYU used it to kick the girl out of school prior to trial. As for Wilson resigning...he did so AFTER he was cleared of any wrong doing by a grand jury. He cited his presence in Ferguson would be a hazard to his fellow officers. Judging by what was going on in Ferguson at the time I agree with him. His case is extreme. The BYU thing....not so much. Randolph left because his case got referred to the POST board by his very own sheriff...his employer. If your own boss submits your case to the POST board, that means they not only want to fire you, but it is a means to ensure you never get employed in that state or other states in LE ever again. Usually it is because you are a liability, corrupt, incompetent or all three.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.heraldextra.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/court-audio-contradicts-intentions-of-deputy-involved-in-byu-student/article_c8442c96-b100-54a9-84d4-8e0a0d1f3be1.amp.html may as well call me a liar then as I don’t accidentally make stuff up. Nothing is made up here. That deputy stole that report. BYU used it and they knew it was stolen. They know the protocol for getting these reports and when it lands in your lap without you requesting it or having the victim bring it to you??? Well that is a stolen report and It is unethical to use it. Re the link you referenced. The deputy resigned his certification and retired. No innocent cop does that. I was a cop for 20 yrs and the only ones who went out like that was the ones who wanted resume preservation.

1...you will never get trained in it. Be a sex crimes detective and you may. 2. I do believe I said it does not always result in conviction or something to that effect. Doesn’t invalidate the method BYU means nothing to me. I just thought their handling was so... 1850 ish. Any modern university has had protocol in place for a long time as to how to handle this stuff and how to legally get police reports if needed.

Knowingly accepting privileged info from the cop to honor code the girl. Also, co mingling title 9 and honor code folks is just a nice way of discouraging the reporting of sexual assault. The cop got disciplined for essentially stealing a policecreport and delivering it to byu. Byu then used it against the girl. That is not ethical....the ends does not justify the means..well maybe at byu it does.

Are you a sex crimes detective? If not, why in the world would you expect to be trained in confrontational calls? Funny you mention Barney. So what with the aquittal...so was OJ. We did find out that byu was extremely unethical in the handling of the case. Thanks for bringing that up. I never even heard of it and had a good read. Byu is not impressive in their handling of it.

Ok...don't get me started on scouting lol....best thing ever to happen is for us to get out of it. Amazingly I was a big scout supporter till I got high enough in the program to see rampant fraud.....back to home teaching,,,ministry whatever

Im missing something here.

Could be...problem is it is believable. Since it is believable, what does that say about our culture...good, bad or whatever? We even had an example presented by an exalted member of this forum of a bishop who is the bowtie police and no one doubts her.

We will see how this new program works out. As for the old one, well quotas, stats, numbers, "the other ward is better than us" etc just doesnt work. It is no different than a workplace quota. Once you start mandating a level of production and then punish, reassign chastise or whatever for failure to meet that stat; people get turned off. Esp when they start telling you just a phone call, a hallway chat or just dropping off a treat suffice. That just let's us know the actual visit isn't really all that important. People just start doing whatever it takes to get the stat because all that is important is that we get the boxes checked so the eq and bp presidents dont get chewed out. I had not had a ht visit for almost three yrs. Didn't even know who they were and frankly didn't care. Was asked one time how I liked my HTs and I replied I didn't know who they were. Found out they had not missed a visit in a couple years..the ones prior who I didn't know either apparently visited us about 75% of time. Lol. I'm sure there are more like that. Will see what the new one is all about.

I have no idea if this guy is guilty or not. Interesting article reference confrontational phone calls by the police. Although the accuser is not a cop, her confrontation of the accused was pulled off in a manner like she has read up on this technique. Not perfect, but she did a good job. The agency I worked for routinely uses these calls to lock suspects into statements, get confessions etc. They do not always work, but they often do and people go to prison. Enjoy: https://www.denver-colorado-criminal-lawyer.com/colorado-state-sex-crimes/attacking-the-investigation-of-date-acquaintance-sexual-assault-the-pretext-phone-call-part-ii-of-ii

How bout a diamondbacks game?

We have Hispanic branches here where the leadership is partly white....branches that have been here for half a century or at least seems that way. Strange. As for your commentary on young vs old elders and rank envy of sorts. I'm an old elder and I don't care. I don't thi k anyone cares except a few and their wives who view church positions as status. They can have that, I'll spend more time with my family thank you very much.

Longer sacrament because 1 hr and 15 min of screaming crying kids isn't enough. My current ward.....oh so loud I don't even bother to pay attention any more. Can't hear.

Well for those who had their doubts, this certainly makes women equal to men in the church. None of us are trusted now lol...

Well now I'm outta Mormonhub jail...that said, I have had time to reflect on communications and discovered something irrelevant. I can thank Vort for calling me worse than Hitler in order for something to be learned. Not by you guys...by me. A few days ago on another thread I was called “worse than Hitler” by a forum member. My visceral hate for Hitler caused me to respond with some profanity and I got sent to jail. Well MormonHub jail was a good thing, because I learned something this past week which has liberated me. So this week I was going through some stuff and found my patriarchal blessing which I probably have not read in decades and never really put much stock in it. For the most part it is very non-specific and relatively free of anything one can point to and know what they are supposed to do with the info. I read it and mind you this was given to me before I even went into the military… one line stuck out. “you will rise to positions of responsibility and bring great credit to your name and your country.” There was no mention in the entire blessing of a mission…not one reference. While the statement cited above does not say I was supposed to be in the Army, it totally validates the service. Anyone who has been in the Army or has read an award citation written by an Army Officer will nearly always see the two words, “great credit.” It is an Army thing. My patriarch would not know that phrase because he had no more to do with the military than to watch old war movies or whatever. That phrase is there for a reason. Anyway- so this week has been good. My response to being compared to Hitler (jokingly I guess) and the timeout I got for it was a very worthwhile investment.

Didn’t even know a this was a thing. I’m honored and I’ll use my little hat pin ☠️ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Kinda like these guys:

One thing to keep in mind is the further you get from Utah, Arizona or Idaho, the less people stress over this stuff. as you can see, on this forum we cant even agree on what the church manuals tell us. Arguments are won here by whoever shouts out you are disobedient first. Kinda like calling someone a racist in a political argument they are not winning. The manual says it is not a pre-condition to participating in sacrament preparation or admin. That said, whoever mentioned (Bishop discretion) is correct. The bishop can add to the standard for a variety of reasons. In places like Utah or other extremely Mormon populated areas...they are very strict about it. Even though it is not a rule, it is the culture. Growing up, I never even owned any color of dress shirt other than white. My parents would have left me at home rather than darken the door of the chapel in anything but a white shirt. My father didn't even own any color of dress shirt other than white. Probably because he was transiting so much between work and church stuff it was easier. Anyway- the comment about you not hearing about it because you are new is fairly correct. Also, you are on the east coast. There are like two Mormons there so no one wants to get anyone mad and not come back. Where I'm at entire wards can be as small a boundary as 1 square mile. If you don't show up, no one notices. I usually wear white shirts. For a few years I wore dress shirts from an old job I had. Didn't want them to go to waste in my closet because they were not needed anymore. I did have one person say something to me about it and I told them to go buy me a white one and I would wear it if they cared so much. They never did. Wear whatever color dress shirt you like- the book says white isn't mandatory. Temple is probably the only exception.

It is not required to wear a white shirt to prepare or admin sacrament.

So what did you think of the two papers?