askandanswer

There were several instances in early latter day history when the Lord told the saints to treat their new dwelling place as if it was their permanent home and as though they were going to be there for a long time even though the Lord knew as He was telling them that they would soon be forced to move along yet again.

@Just_A_Guy a guy was talking and you were still able to eat? That's impressive!

Is this the same eating place where other thirdforum meet-ups have taken place? From what I recall of other pics of similar events, the setting looks quite similar.

And littering

@Vort and @The Folk Prophet now that you've been called in and disciplined by not just one, but two moderators, I'm expecting much better behaviour from the two of you in future.

A fascinating link, thank you very much. I can see that I'm going to have to start getting a better understanding of some of Skousen's work, his ideas seem to be very similar to my own.

These are useful ideas. Thank you. I'm not too worried about God breaking any laws, but I think this line of inquiry could help us develop a better understand our relationship with Him, our origins, and the rules under which we live, in time and in eternity.

It seems to me that the arrangement referred to by Alma has some similarities to a basic social contract whereby the many give to the one something that the one wants, and which will enable the one to progress the interests of the many, and failure of the one to meet the conditions under which the many gave him whatever it was he desired results in a termination of the position of the one and the end of the contract. This idea is broadly similar to what happens all around the world today whereby political leaders, (the one acting on behalf of the many) when being sworn in to office, take an oath to uphold the law, or something similar (maintaining a system of justice) and a failure to abide by that is grounds for an end to the deal and their removal from office. Applying this idea to LDS theology, this could mean that the many intelligences gave to the one God whatever power or agency or autonomy they then had, or allowed God to exercise power and make decisions on their behalf which then enabled God to act in their interest, which He did by establishing the Plan of Salvation, which allowed these intelligences to progress. However, if God did not uphold His part of the deal, eg, He failed to maintain a system of justice, ( or perhaps one of many other possibly conditions that we don’t know about) then the intelligences, or spirits, or people or resurrected personages, whatever stage they were up to in their eternal progression, could then withdraw from the deal.

The much scarier, more powerful Legion of Doom

I can't help notice the similarity between @Just_A_Guy and one of Australia's better former Prime Ministers. John Howard, Liberal Party, Prime Minister from 1996 - 2007.

I don't recommend the job of messenger Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.:) (New Testament | Mark 1:2 - 3)

Given the age to which many of the early Old Testament characters live, wouldn't an extension of our days in mortality simply be a part of the restoration of all things?

30 In that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree; (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:30)

For you, @anatess2. and to make this thread complete: carrots

This doesn't directly address your question, but we have a couple in our stake who are happy (willing?) to be married to each other but have decided that they don't want to be sealed to each other. In all other ways, they are, and have been a solid, gospel living family for at least the last 20 years, with two RM children. I haven't come across that kind of conscious decision before.

I think that, in general, the pursuit of knowledge and understanding is always a worthy pursuit. It is sometimes a good idea to first pursue and obtain understanding, and then, only after you have it, to assign a value and purpose to that increased knowledge and understanding. To the specific point of the value or utility of finding out the causes of same sex attraction, here is what Jeff Robinson said in his address at the 2018 FairMormon conference. Jeff has been running his own private practice for 25 years "assisting individuals experiencing a conflict between their experience of same-sex attraction and their religious beliefs and/or personal values." When I meet with the clients seeking help in dealing with the conflict between their same-sex attraction and their faith, I ask them “If you could get an answer to any question regarding this issue what would your question be?” The great majority of them respond by asking, “Why? Why do I have these feelings?” Much of their confusion, shame, and hopelessness, appear to hinge on their not understanding why they have these feelings. Thinking clearly about cause seems central, not only to decreasing their confusion and shame but also to recognizing what reasonable and credible options are open to them. https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2018/thinking-differently-about-same-sex-attraction

Alma 42:22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. My understanding of verse 22 is that if the works of justice were to be destroyed, then God would cease to be God. This understanding might or might not be correct, and this scripture might or might not be true. But if this scripture is true, and if my understanding of it is correct, could we then conclude that a collapse, or a failure, of justice, would violate one of the conditions on which God holds and exercises His power?

See above

Yes. Immediately, and without appeal.

In @MormonGator's back yard of course!. As much and as fast as possible, ideally while he is in his backyard. Or even in his lounge room. Why do you ask such obvious questions?

Based on the last time I visited the moat, I figure you're going to need way more than a gallon.

Coincidentally,( ) my memory of the pre-existence was also wiped, so I also don’t know how things went down in the pre-existence. That’s partly why I’m trying to find out. And that’s also why its such a difficult task. All we can do is construct possibilities from the various fragments and reflections from insights on other matters that are scattered throughout the body of church teachings and doctrines and put together ideas that might, or might not, reflect what really happened. The shortage of revealed teaching on the conditions and circumstances of the pre-existence does make it harder to develop an understanding of what it was like, but that in no way should be a disincentive to trying to develop such an understanding – it just makes it harder and requires the use of a different methodology from the ones that are usually used to gain an understanding of spiritual things. I agree that is is probably not a good idea to disagree with Elder Maxwell. He is a very intelligent and wise man, as well as one anointed of the Lord. We are free to make our own narrative for our pre-mortal existence decisions and actions.  I just did not think that your explanation of "customised curriculum" reflected what Elder Maxwell was trying to communicate. I’ve re-read the devotional that you referred to, and related comments, and I agree that my characterization of what Elder Maxwell was saying was not correct. I thank you for that correction it has added to my understanding. In trying to reconcile my idea with the teachings of Elder Maxwell, it occurred to me that one possibility is that what Elder Maxwell was describing was just one approach to curriculum design, but it might not be the only approach. It would not be inconsistent with Elder Maxwell’s remarks, or any other scripture or teaching, to indicate that individuals were involved in designing their own curriculum. Elder Maxwell has outlined one method, but he did not rule out the possibility of other methods. Personally, I view myself as significantly less intelligent and wise as compared to Heavenly Father. Like you, I am also significantly less wise and intelligent than my Father in Heaven. That fact is a partial motivation to become less unwise and less unintelligent. We are commanded to become as He, and this of course involves seeking to improve our level of wisdom and understanding. I think that studying and pondering and reflecting on His way and His doings, and trying to come to a better understanding of His motivations and reasons for doing is one way of achieving this objective of becoming less unwise and building understanding. I have made lots of mistakes and will continue to do so. Also, like you, I have made mistakes. I think the last time was June, 1995, when I chose an apple pie when I should have chosen an apple cake. After a great deal of soul searching and self analysis, I think I can reluctantly acknowledge that sometime in the future there is a possibility that I might make another mistake. Not that it adds much in the way of support for my overall idea, but I note that more than 15 years after his 1974 BYU devotional, in his April 1990, Elder Maxwell said :"The customized challenges are often the toughest and the most ironical." On the face of it, my speculation that the curriculum some of us may have chosen to construct would be a very difficult curriculum is consistent with these comments.

To accept the idea that our customised curriculum is more a result of God's design than our own, when considering that addictions can be considered as part of that curriculum and that one of the central features of addiction is the loss of agency, reluctant as I am to argue against Elder Maxwell, I have some difficulty with the idea that God would be bless any of his children with a condition that is defined by loss of agency. I think its easier to accept the idea that a person might themselves have chosen such a condition. LIkewise, with the first commandment being go forth and multiply, I find it equally difficult to see how God would be party to a curriculum design decision that leads to a result that makes it so much harder to obey that first commandment. I think God blesses His children with good things, and that He is less likely, acting on His own, to give His children bad things that might help to make them good.

Here are some thoughts I’ve put together on why some people are sexually attracted to people of their own gender and why some people have addictions. I would be very interested in your response and your own thoughts on how/why same-sex attraction and addictions exist and their role in the eternal scheme of things. I am a believer in an idea taught by Neal A Maxwell that important parts of our life in mortality are a result of what Elder Maxwell called a “customized curriculum.” I believe Elder Maxwell used the phrase customized curriculum to refer to an arrangement whereby in the pre-existence, we were given the opportunity to have some input into choosing and deciding what trials we would have in this life. In making these choices, there may have been several matters that influenced our decision-making. We may have chosen a particular trial or circumstances to have in mortality, because we knew that resolving that particular trial would facilitate the development of an attribute which we knew we were lacking and which would be necessary for our salvation. Or we may have made our decision based on the belief that some trials were more difficult than others, and that resolving a difficult trial would result in more personal growth and spiritual development than resolving a less difficult trial. Perhaps the most difficult trials to resolve are those that deal with matters that are the most central to the successful operation of the Plan of Salvation. If this is the case, then it would follow, free agency and procreation being central concepts to the successful operation of the Plan of Salvation, that some of the most difficult trials to live with and ultimately resolve, and the greatest amount of blessings and growth that would attach to their successful resolution, would be addictions – inasmuch as it significantly impacts on free agency – and same sex attraction, inasmuch as it significantly impacts on procreation. (SIDE NOTE Putting these two things together, I guess that the most difficult trials would be combinations of slightly less difficult trials. If that is true, it would follow that the most difficult trials, and therefore the ones most likely to facilitate growth, are those that involve addictions to sexual matters.) If there is any truth in these ideas, I can readily imagine a situation whereby an individual in the pre-existence, putting together their customized curriculum for mortality, being confident in their ability to deal with significant difficulties, and having faith in their Father in Heaven to help them, and desiring to grow as much and as fast as possible during mortality, chooses the most difficult trials. If its true that the most difficult trials are those that relate most closely to the central aspects of the Plan of Salvation, then some of the most difficult trials would be same sex addiction and addictions. And that’s why they are homosexual or people with addictions here in mortality – because that’s what they chose in the pre-existence in the belief that righteously living with, and ultimately overcoming those particular trials, would add to and hasten their progression more than anything else. Of course, this is all speculative – apart from Elder Maxwell’s teachings about a customized curriculum, I am not aware of any teachings or scriptures that directly address this idea. However, it does seem to be consistent with some other well accepted teachings. First, to me, it seems more likely that addictions and same sex attraction in mortality are more likely to be a result of choice, not chance, in the pre-existence: it’s hard to imagine a loving Father in Heaven allowing these things to burden His children simply as a matter of chance. We know that our Father in Heaven does all He can to enable His children to grow and succeed, so He is unlikely Himself to impose upon His children anything that could prevent them from growing and achieving as could the burdens of addiction or same sex attraction. For the same reason, He is unlikely to allow an addiction or same sex attraction to develop by chance. However, if some of His children believe that such a trial could enhance their spiritual growth, He could then allow them to choose that trial. Second, there does seem to be some support for the idea that from the greatest trials come the greatest blessings, an idea which the world summarises in the saying no pain, no gain. For those who have read this far, I would be interested in your thoughts and responses, both for and against, and any improvements to this idea you might be willing to suggest. Thanks