pkstpaul

Michelle Obama's mother was just re-quoted on her comments about not liking that her daughter would marry someone of mixed race. People surfaced the quote with the hope of raising some controversy. Myself, I understood her concerns and wouldn't criticize her for them. Marrying someone from a different backgound makes a marriage more difficult. Not impossible, just more difficult.

I'd say some elements of our society has evolved around coffee. Back when, the morning cup or two might give you a boost. These days, you need a greater boost. Not necessarily because it all starts with more work, but because of the assumption "If you would just drink more coffee, you could do more!" People do more with more coffee, so the workload rises a little beyond the current coffee level. Drink more coffee to catch up. Rinse and repeat.

I understand you are not looking for a debate here. My premise is that we haven't seen the impact yet. The difference today is that in past generations, MOST people had a "cup" (8oz) of coffee in the morning, usually two. That was it. Now, people have large size cups and drink them throughout the day. I recently sat at the table next to the Safeway Starbucks because I needed to use the wi-fi to update my iPhone. The stream of people at 2:00 in the afternoon was astounding. There is a difference today. We, as a society, will pay the price. That and the movement to accept marijuana. A heavy price to pay for the next generation or two, until we re-learn what was known back in the 1800's when JS had the revelation.

Woohoo! This time the dance around words (being politically correct) isn't from my Left Wing self
 
I don't think it's a big deal, as a tea party or tea time, is just another term for sitting down in a social setting and eating. Whenever we're visiting family in England, the phrase is typically used in this sense, and they are active LDS. So it could just be a cultural thing. On the same thought, my daughter has played "tea party" with friends and cousins who come from active LDS households, and their parents have never made a fuss about it - in fact - their mums also use the wording.

David13: I'm sure you answered your own question as you wrote it out. I'm sure you worked out in your mind that you couldn't be deceivious and righteous at the same time.
 
Conversion will come naturally. Even in sleepy little southern Utah towns they have missionaries.

@kaowinter
I'm not a seasoned forum poster but in the time I have been on this forum I have heard stories very similar to yours repeated several times. Sometimes the OP posts a story and then disappears. One wonders if they are only looking for validation of their actions. Sometimes, they come back and carry a dialog as you are doing, but I think it rare. So, when I post a quick response, it is generally with the expectation the OP might come looking for immediate validation and then doesn't return to see the give an take that happens among the forum members. Even then, you generally find two camps: one that will support you and the sanctity of marriage and one that might tell you run. I almost always lie on the "save the marriage" side.
 
That is why I was so hard on you.
 
Marriage is hard. It takes work. It takes patience and tolerance. It sounds like you are working on it. It sounds like you want to save it. My advice is to work on her terms. A divorce doesn't happen overnight. You work out a separation and you work on getting together. I personally think you put too much weight on her spirituality. Her spirituality is personal to her (not withstanding the marriage covenant). She should be allowed time to work out her spiritual health; a lifetime. Plenty of members live with inactive and non-member spouses. They find other things to pull them together. To focus on her inactivty is probably offensive to her.

@pkstpaul
 
I appreciate your candor. I'm not so naive enough to think that just talking to a bishop fixes an issue. This is why your candor is appreciated. I never intended to have it look as if I was blaming her spirituality for what's happened. I'm fully aware that had I never done that, the only thing that we'd be going through is her lack of interest in children. I've experienced enough so far in order to know that that isn't even close to the amount of effort it takes. I've been there, I've felt that pain. But like any mistake, it can come back. I've asked more times than I can count why this was my curse. I hate it more than anything I can imagine. It disgusts me.
 
This time it wasn't anything large, there wasn't anything that I did that would cause her to leave. I wasn't rampantly looking at pornography or seeking other women. I had a few mistakes with pornography since that time and I've had a few thoughts (but never acted on them). I know that it needs to be completely gone in my life and hopefully this period will exterminate it for good (regardless of whether she comes back). I work full time, go to church, the bishop knows enough that he hasn't prohibited any temple attendance, and had been praying (myself making those prayers) with my wife off and on for 3 years (and more recently doing so every day for a while). Once again, this isn't a justification, I'd come back from a very low point in my life and have been getting better every day since my confession.

I think I read everything but I don't see what you are "asking" for. What I get is she didn't leave you, you left her. You describe your behaviors to the point where I can't see past your fault in the marriage. Did she have fault? Yes. But honestly you describe a train wreck of a relationship. It doesn't sound like there are children involved. I suggest you take some time and mature a bit more before expecting to be in a marriage. You are young enough and poor enough that there is no loss here. Don't tell us you love her and need her. If you can't keep your finger off a computer mouse, you can't keep a wife and job and children.

I've had a couple of friends go through Cedar Fort publishing company.   They publish a lot from LDS members.

Granite Publishing and Distribution is also LDS-oriented and stays pretty orthodox. They're based out of Orem.
Seagull was set up as a retail distributor for Covenant products--they were both started and, for a long time, owned by the Kofford family, and were both sold to Deseret Book in 2005 or so. I last visited a Seagull about 3 years ago and was frankly appalled at their lack of selection.

Did you read the link I provided?  It explains quite thoroughly what the IPADS will be used for and it's not so much about social media.

The reason the church issues standardized mission iPads is to encourage responsible mission behavior.  The come pre-installed with a digital Missionary Daily Planner and the Area Book (which replaces the traditional printed).  They also have The Gospel Library app includes scriptures, manuals, magazines and other teaching resources.  Missionaries use them to plan their day, keep the schedule, contact people (including via Facebook, cause that's how people communicate nowadays).  They also use them to teach lessons, either my playing church videos, or as a visual aide (replacing the old-school flip chart).  
 
Yes, there is a risk that some missionaries will goof off with the iPads.  No one denies this.  But, as the article Pam posted states, the church is trying to encourage missionaries (and young people in general) to develop good digital habits.  This is one venue for them to do that.  And personally, I'm of the opinion that the missionaries who are going to goof-off with the ipad would probably be the same missionaries goofing off if iPads didn't exist.

it isn't that they will be grown "one day", it is that they will be grown "tomorrow". I actually tolerate bad child behavior better now because I say to myself "some day they won't do that and I'll miss it".  By "bad" behavior, I don't mean terrible behavior, just silly stuff other parents would be annoyed at.  It is hard to imagine they are that hard on you. Unless you are over 40, you should have the energy to keep up with them. If not, you might look at your own schedule and habits and try to find some of that energy (i.e.early to bed, better diet, excercise).
 
I would suggest some boundries. Children need - and want - boundries. You tell them the rules - "Dad will play after the news is over", "We'll play two games of tag.", and then honor the boundries. Spend time reading to them instead of wrestling, or find some other low-impact activities like board games.
 
Raising children seems to take forever, but it will be over before you know it.

I think your question interesting because I think we all hope to persuade others toward our thinking, yet I myself don't look to be changed and have only found myself in generally agreement or opposed to what I consider an extremist view.
 
I find that I am far more moderate than some that post regularly. I am amazed that they have the time to expound so deeply on things I find of little consequence. I am not liberal, by any means, but I am a convert and bring 20+ years of pre-LDS perspective.
 
I am moderate because of my years of missionary work where I see members turned away from (turned off by) a hard line in the culture of the Church. We see it almost daily in the posts in the forum. Yet others feel there is no deviation from what we are commanded. I agree on there being no deviation in the final judgement, but I also believe in the opportunity to learn line upon line and the opportunity for repentance from principles we cannot easily grasp as young members in the Church. And I believe there are principles we will not learn in our mortal life. I don't spend my time on "eternal" mysteries. I have enough to do to get through the day.
 
If there is another principle that separates me from a hard-line, it is that I separate the Church from the gospel. I believe the gospel to be pure and the principles to live by. I believe the Church to be an administrative tool to carry out the gospel. The gospel is infalible. The Church, being run by man, is not.

How often has a sincerely held belief, or strong opinion that you held been changed as a result of discussions on this site? What was belief or opinion and what was the posting that changed it? Do some posters have a greater impact on our understandings and beliefs than other posters? I'm just curious.
 
To answer part of my own question, I can't say that I've had a sincerely held belief changed yet as a result of my participation on this site, but then I'm only a relatively new user. I think for me the main benefit that I have gained from using this site is an increasing awareness of the need to be very specific in how to word a post, the inadequacy of language, and the examples shown of the sometimes impressive depth of knowledge and ability to structure an argument that some of the users of this site display. I'm continuing to watch the lessons that occasionally take place on how to disagree without being disagreeable as how to deal with strongly opposing views is something that I think I will be able to learn from this site.  

To the victor go the spoils as they say, MOE's post above mine sums it up very well. I accept the Nephi was chosen of God to write his portion of the BOM, but it has his slant on it, as does Mormons portion. A casual reading of the book demonstrates this. 
 
Same for the history of the church. Its pretty whitewashed, but again to the victors go the spoils, Brigham Young and leaders that followed him got to choose the direction of how the history of the church would be told to members. Particularly new converts and over time members that were BIC. The good is glorified, and the not so good swept under a rug in some basement.    

Jamie, to be clear, I am a baptized and active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I identify as 'not Mormon' because, generally speaking, I find Mormons annoying.  
 
That's partly cultural and partly me being a jerk.

I have no problem with "non-infertiles" having opinions about the struggle and everything else. Provided they've trained themselves a bit either through open discussion or reading. My parents and grandparents and three of my four siblings have done none of this "sensitivity training" and it is extremely difficult for me to believe they really care about me if they are not willing to even look up the subject online. 
 
The opinion of many, if not most victims of infertility or child loss within the church, is that the "every woman a mother" type of talk is well-intentioned, but still, very condescending. It is an easy way of lightly addressing the members of a congregation who suffer childlessness in silence, acknowledging them, but not their feelings. To me, it is just another way of saying to the child (as I said in an earlier post here) who got nothing for christmas that he is lucky because now he has time to perform selfless service for others. 

It is a "cultural" expectation enforced thoughout the raising of our youth. It is heartbreaking for a young man or woman who wants to go, deserves to go, who worked to be eligible to go only to be told 'no'. The expectation should be set early on that not everyone 'can' go, or 'should' go, or even is 'required' to go.
 
All the recommendations of serving some other way do not help the person who feels a faliure in their society for not meeting cultural expectations.

It is a "cultural" expectation enforced thoughout the raising of our youth. It is heartbreaking for a young man or woman who wants to go, deserves to go, who worked to be eligible to go only to be told 'no'. The expectation should be set early on that not everyone 'can' go, or 'should' go, or even is 'required' to go.
 
All the recommendations of serving some other way do not help the person who feels a faliure in their society for not meeting cultural expectations.

Very cool intro. Thanks!
 
You are an interesting person.  Congrats on the engagement!

My take... the discipline actions are for those who refuse the steps of repentance. Disfellowship is a bit of a warning shot - hey, get your act together. Excomunicaiton is a final step that says you appear to have no intent to comply with the standards of the Church.  In the example of the blogger, he simply refused any instruction in how to correct his behaviors that were detrimental to the Church. To allow a person to publicly persue behaviors known to be detrimental to the Church or its members would be to sanction their words and actions - regardless of the sin.

My take... the discipline actions are for those who refuse the steps of repentance. Disfellowship is a bit of a warning shot - hey, get your act together. Excomunicaiton is a final step that says you appear to have no intent to comply with the standards of the Church.  In the example of the blogger, he simply refused any instruction in how to correct his behaviors that were detrimental to the Church. To allow a person to publicly persue behaviors known to be detrimental to the Church or its members would be to sanction their words and actions - regardless of the sin.

There is a line and where that is exactly, I don't know.  The line is giving enough time to children and giving too much time to children.  
 
I do believe it is possible to give children too much time.  If parents are constantly involved they will never learn how to figure out for themselves what to do in life.  The classic example of this is "Mom, I'm bored . . . ." that is a child who hasn't figured out for themselves how to stay occupied and are requiring external factors to keep them from being "bored", i.e. T.V. someone playing with them, they haven't figured out their own creative genius.
 
Kids that age generally have a short attention span, so a 15-30 min. game would probably suffice. Personally as boys get older it gets better because there are more things to interact with that are actually useful . . .i.e. helping mow the lawn, work on the house, etc. Those things count in my mind as spending time with kids.
 
The biggest thing is that a parent isn't a friend, isn't a playmate, a parent is the ultimate mentor in life. Consequently, we don't have to be engaged in playmate/friend activities to spend quality time and be a mentor to our children.

it isn't that they will be grown "one day", it is that they will be grown "tomorrow". I actually tolerate bad child behavior better now because I say to myself "some day they won't do that and I'll miss it".  By "bad" behavior, I don't mean terrible behavior, just silly stuff other parents would be annoyed at.  It is hard to imagine they are that hard on you. Unless you are over 40, you should have the energy to keep up with them. If not, you might look at your own schedule and habits and try to find some of that energy (i.e.early to bed, better diet, excercise).
 
I would suggest some boundries. Children need - and want - boundries. You tell them the rules - "Dad will play after the news is over", "We'll play two games of tag.", and then honor the boundries. Spend time reading to them instead of wrestling, or find some other low-impact activities like board games.
 
Raising children seems to take forever, but it will be over before you know it.